Feminist Analyses

[plastroncafe]

Yes, there most certainly is a reason why it has to be hostile.
Because the people being disenfranchised are angry about it, and we shouldn't have to be polite in order to be heard.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Yes, there most certainly is a reason why it has to be hostile.
Because the people being disenfranchised are angry about it, and we shouldn't have to be polite in order to be heard.

Well, okay - fair enough. I mostly meant it from the other perspective, honestly. Asking questions and analyzing what we consume and absorb is always a good thing, and it's troubling to see some people get so defensive and hostile at the status quo being questioned.

That said, I think civility is the best way to have a conversation and to educate. Unless the other side gets hostile, in which case, go nuts.

[BabyTurtles]

I'm a little late like about ...3 pages late XD........

I saw people complaining about the girl being a love interest only, but when a girl is a main character the guy is the love interest....so do we just not want love in a show period or what?

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

I'm a little late like about ...3 pages late XD........

I saw people complaining about the girl being a love interest only, but when a girl is a main character the guy is the love interest....so do we just not want love in a show period or what?

The problem with women being love interests occurs when they are defined by the relationship.

[Bry]

Right. They have to help drive the plot in a way that doesn't solely revolve around their relationship to, or impact on, the protagonist. It's not about avoiding love interest characters entirely, but ensuring they are actually fully-developed characters in their own right, not just ciphers for the male hero.

[plastroncafe]

Female characters should add to the plot, not BE the plot.
a la Women in Refrigerators.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Bry

Right. They have to help drive the plot in a way that doesn't solely revolve around their relationship to, or impact on, the protagonist. It's not about avoiding love interest characters entirely, but ensuring they are actually fully-developed characters in their own right, not just ciphers for the male hero.

oh okay :3 yea then I agree, I don't mind a girl being a love interest as long as she has good development first

Mako from Legend of Korra was a boy victim of the love interest only thing

[Matches Malone]

I've been quietly following this thread since its inception and have been enjoying the (mostly) civil and intelligent discussion that's gone on here. I appreciate those here, including the initial poster, who is willing to challenge values, institutions, and belief systems, especially in TMNT fandom. We all have mothers, sisters, aunts, nieces, etc. so whether we agree with the arguments set forth here regarding Feminism, I would at least hope that we can agree that the cause of respecting women as actual people with individual thoughts and feelings that are of equal importance as the other gender is a noble one.

Having said that, while the disenfranchised have every right to be angry and hostile, I would encourage sympathy and patience, as I'm more concerned with furthering causes and understanding than anger, albeit justified. Be the bigger person; you win more people over that way. I'm in no way condemning those who are hostile, I'm just here to promote a different attitude. Plus, it helps to remember that these sexist values are absorbed by us all, largely through media unfiltered, unexplained, and unknowingly. I do not come from a background of formal study on this subject, so it's for my own benefit as well that I ask for patience and compassion in any ignorance I may display.

Many detractors get defensive because no one wants to be called a sexist. Our culture has changed enough that this term holds a heavy shame with it. However, it seems it has changed the value of this word, and not our value pertaining to the actual subject. As many have pointed out, being sexist doesn't necessarily mean you hate your mom or your sister, but you may be perpetuating something that is harmful to them. Sexism is institutionalized, meaning it is still part of our values, perhaps unknowingly, even if we're told it's not. We've all hurt someone without realizing it. Like making a joke about getting hit by a car when, unbeknownst to us, the person we're talking to just had their dad killed by a drunk driver. The thing is, we can know better because this history of sexism is not news.

Looking at TMNT and calling it sexist isn't saying it is the worst thing to come along for women, but that it is part of this institution as a whole that continues to under and misrepresent women, thus giving people the wrong idea. TMNT does not exist in a vacuum. It's just the next show that did this. Why are we talking about TMNT's sexist values? Well, why not? We're all fans and that's what we want to talk about. We don't want to look on it critically because it's not worse than the status quo, what we're used to, but if sexism is institutionalized, we have to remember that the status quo isn't very good to begin with, so there's nothing wrong with someone (Feminists) to want to do better than the status quo.

Regarding roles like love interests or sexuality, there is nothing inherently wrong with being these things. We all deal with love and sexuality. However, remember again that we have a history to look back on. Whether it's intentional or not, it's another addition to the long history of love interest or sexual female characters.

Regarding quantity, you can't say there isn't opportunity. As many pointed out, why weren't any of the other male characters made female? A female news anchor, or mutant? Why is it so disproportionate? It's not that there is an arbitrary quantity to achieve, but that this reveals a trend. Is it a coincidence that these female characters didn't seem to fit in these other roles? Well, after decades of media portrayal, I think we can safely assume it's not a coincidence. It's something we learned to think, because in real life, women have a wider ranger of roles than this, just like men.

As TMNT fans, no one wants arbitrary PC values or rules to come before story, which is what makes us fans to begin with. But keeping these things in mind will help us see the opportunities, which are there, to incorporate female and minority characters into the story in a natural, organic way. We're not here to just dwell on the past of missed opportunities, but learn from them to do better!

Sorry for the long post, but I doubt I'll have too many opportunities to comment thoughtfully in this thread, so I thought I'd make the most of it.

[CyberCubed]

Megan Fox being casted as April is far more sexist than anything in the toons. April has never been portrayed as, "amazingly hot" in any incarnation but more like a cute girl next door type.

Megan Fox is totally wrong for the role of April.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If you're not interesting in dissecting the media you're soaking in, you might be better served to avoid threads like this one. Because it seems to me you're a little too unhappy about the fact that your status quo is being questioned.

That's not it at all. What bugs me is people seeing phantom racism/sexism in every piece of popular media. See characters as characters. Don't get so worked up about the descriptors.

There's a difference between dissecting media, and seeing a boogie man hiding in it because it doesn't meet some sort of bizarre immeasurable quota system.

To me the screams of "SEXISM!!!" in stuff like this ring about as true as the screams of "SATANISM!!!" by those idiots like Phil Phillips and Joan Hake Robie back in the early Nineties.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Jester

That's not it at all. What bugs me is people seeing phantom racism/sexism in every piece of popular media. See characters as characters. Don't get so worked up about the descriptors.

What bugs me are people coming into a thread specifically labelled as a feminist analysis of something only to be told that I'm getting "worked up". It's insulting at worst, and dismissive at best.

There's a difference between dissecting media, and seeing a boogie man hiding in it because it doesn't meet some sort of bizarre immeasurable quota system.

Yes, and that's why we discuss it, rather than just out of hand shooting things down.

To me the screams of "SEXISM!!!" in stuff like this ring about as true as the screams of "SATANISM!!!" by those idiots like Phil Phillips and Joan Hake Robie back in the early Nineties.

And so not only only are you dismissing the thread, but you're calling us shrill and idiotic as well.

Well played.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And so not only only are you dismissing the thread, but you're calling us shrill and idiotic as well.

I know I am.

[BubblyShell22]

But April isn't seen as just the love interest. She's also another part of the family and is only seen as the love interest on Don's part. April hasn't returned his feelings and seems to rebuff him either because she knows it won't work, or because she really isn't aware of his true feelings for her.

Frankly, I think it would be cool to see more females in Space Heroes. The only girl we saw there was Celestial, and she kind of got disintegrated.

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

Sorry for the long post, but I doubt I'll have too many opportunities to comment thoughtfully in this thread, so I thought I'd make the most of it.

This is a bloody good post.

[Keroscene]

Also, FWIW, despite the efforts of some people to challenge the very foundations of feminism and some plain nonsense (yes, little girls DO want to see women on television. Trust me), I've actually been surprised how civil this conversation has been so far. Really wasn't expecting it in this particular forum, to be honest. As a feminist, I do sometimes cringe at Tumblr posts and the like which occasionally do cross over into "shrill" territory. There's been no "check your privilege" nonsense and people seem to have kept a sense of perspective. Can't say the other side has been as well behaved, but there you go.

The thing to remember in any discussion about disenfranchised groups is that the vast majority of people fall into one of those disenfranchised groups. White, thin, middle class, non-disabled, heterosexual males within the ages of 25 to 40 are not a particularly large group of people. So talking about these things is not about blaming people. It's about saying "how did it come about, what's wrong with it and what needs to change?"

In the case of TMNT... more female characters, no bloody FAINTING, not assuming that the show's fanbase must be male and making creative decisions off the back of it and not making the little girls watching feel like they must be freaks and it's not really "for" them, like I did when I was nine years old.

[CyberCubed]

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

They don't count because he's not the primary male character in the show and there isn't any particular lack of regular male characters in the show.

And I don't seriously believe that you didn't understand that when you made the post.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So fainting is anti-feminist now? I guess all those times Vernon fainted don't count because he's not April right?

To repeat a point in my long, and likely unread post, it's not about fainting. It's about common recurring tropes like a shrill fainting lady. Is it an established idea that men constantly lose their **** and faint? No, but it is with women, so much to the point that it is parodied, hence a lot of stuff that's in the old cartoon, which is a lot of parody. The first time a lady fainted, okay, who cares. But the millionth time in the millionth show? It's something to point out. No one's going crazy about it, just pointing it out.

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure if you saw a 5 foot tall talking rat offering you tea , you'd faint too.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Keroscene

This is a bloody good post.

Thanks, I appreciate that.