Feminist Analyses

[plastroncafe]

What was your reaction when Kenshin and Keno fainted.
Did you laugh?
Why did you laugh?
What was funny about it?

My theory?
April fainted because she's a woman, and that's what women do in times of stress.
Keno fainted because watching men faint is funny, because they're supposed to be stronger than that.
Kenshin fainted because of the Rule of Three in comedy writing.

[CyberCubed]

I thought all 3 were funny, personally.

Keno the most only because he stomped on Raph's foot and they all jumped on out in front of him.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by Keroscene

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.

I'm pretty torn on this issue. The way I perceived it when watching through the first time was definitely that Donnie was just going to very technical and, to him, logical extremes because that's how his brain works and again, he's a teenage mutant who has never interacted with a girl before. But I can also see how the particular way he's going about these things is sort of creepy, and how impressionable youth watching the show could get the wrong message. I'm hoping (and expecting) that Donnie will have to come to terms with his crush and his actions, and hopefully that will be portrayed in a way that lets the viewers know that he was not acting in a particularly healthy way.
That being said, my absolute favorite Donnie-has-a-crush scene is in Panic in the Sewers when the turtles are on the roof of a nearby building watching April try to plant the pizza box microphone w/ the Foot (or the Purple Dragons? I can't recall.) Her plan is foiled, so she takes initiative, thinks on her feet and talks her way into the building. (This itself is a great moment for April, in my opinion.) But I just love, absolutely love, the way Donnie looks at her, so awestruck, and says "She's so cool." I think this is a really great departure from April's introduction where Donnie has the hots for her because she's soooo pretty and that's all we know about her. I know it isn't perfect... but I think the show is starting to get it's sh*t together in a good way.

EDIT: Also you should message me your Tumblr so we can be Tumblr fraaaands.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Eh, give the kids some credit. That's like saying Splinter's supposed abusive parenting and his "seek victory not fairness" advice tells kids of today it's ok to hit your children and cheat your exams.

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).

Man...in my mind I saw a sparkly vampire when I read that. Gotta love Stephanie Meyer setting back literature 100+ years.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Eh, give the kids some credit. That's like saying Splinter's supposed abusive parenting and his "seek victory not fairness" advice tells kids of today it's ok to hit your children and cheat your exams.

As long as Don doesn't stalk April, breaks in her room to watch her sleep, and emotionally manipulating her by playing a wounded underdog, then Don's crush is really harmless, considering it's all played for laughs and made him look like a butt monkey (even Mikey lampshaded that).

I pretty much agree :3 Donnie's crush isn't making April look bad, she pretty much ignores alot of what he does anyway XD it's harmless...until....like you said....he stalks her in her room....or takes creepy pictures..(okay more than one creepy picture!) XD LOL

[plastroncafe]

Everything about April's body language says she's not interested, and Donnie is ignoring that. He gets a minor pass because what does he know of girls? At some point though? She's going to tell him straight out that she's either not interested and that they're just friends, and that'll be the true test.

If he accepts it and moves on, good.
If he starts whining about how he's not "bad boy" enough, and how dare she rebuke him because he's always been nice to her, and about how girls always go for jerks?

Bad. Just bad.
Even worse if one of his brothers or Splinter doesn't call him on his craptastic behavior.

A guy doesn't have to stalk or watch you sleep to be a creeper.

[CyberCubed]

Applaud Nick for creating a teenage version of April. With the Turtles acting younger than ever before and feeling like real teens for the first time ever, having a younger April who can grow up alongside them was a brilliant move.

I couldn't imagine how an adult April would fit into the Nick cartoon, so I'm glad they aged her down.

Anyone besides me find it interesting how April went from being 28 in the original toon, to 23 in the 4kids cartoon, and now to 16? In the IDW comics I think she's like 18 or 19 since she's in College.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

A guy doesn't have to stalk or watch you sleep to be a creeper.

True, but kindly drop that stone you plan on chucking to the guy (and/or girl) unless he/she deserves it.

I mean, aren't kids today celebrating their unrequited feelings by stalking said crush's facebook account, especially when they're not friends?

Originally Posted by Jester

Man...in my mind I saw a sparkly vampire when I read that. Gotta love Stephanie Meyer setting back literature 100+ years.

Yeah, it's sad a female author, and her female fans, sees this as an acceptable behavior from a love interest.

[AnarkyLantern]

Some thoughts- April was going to be a teen in the WB show, so the idea has been floating around.

Edward Cullen is written as struggling with ssa and Meyer thinks him and Bella overstepping boundaries will fix that.

I can't imagine April doesn't know at this point but I'm inclined to think this is where the show will deal with unrequited love and staying friends once Casey is introduced.

[Luigiperps]

The line in monkey brains "do you really think you have a chance with April" seems like it ment something

[snake]

Originally Posted by AnarkyLantern

Some thoughts- April was going to be a teen in the WB show, so the idea has been floating around.

Edward Cullen is written as struggling with ssa and Meyer thinks him and Bella overstepping boundaries will fix that.

I can't imagine April doesn't know at this point but I'm inclined to think this is where the show will deal with unrequited love and staying friends once Casey is introduced.

Agree with this^^^


edit- holy moley I was a huge cuckatoli (9/12/16) hey assholes!

[Jelly Bean]

I'm kind of sorry that I missed out on this discussion and I am amazed that it was so positive and insightful with both female and male contributing in a nice way. I honestly did not think that was possiable. Whenever I see with guys involved in a discussion related to gender or female inequality it usually results in a lot of hatred and insults on how feminism is ruining western soceity like this youtube clip here:

Spoiler:

quote from near the top of the page:

The increasing irresponsibility of rude, selfish women in America (ie, not responsible for their actions), is the biggest "contribution" of feminism. By encouraging women to act like @ssholes, feminism causes a lot of women to lose respect for themselves, as well. It makes them hate their nurturing, caring side, & their womanhood, & turns them into nasty, selfish, in-your-face bitches, that nobody really respects or wants anything to do with



qoutes from one guy:

I cant even imagin what its going to be like 100 years from now 1 in 40 marrages make it? women are too quick to give up and operate based off what shes feeling this sec not logic thats a mans thing, women are run by the mid brain, sex food feelings, men are outer brain, logic, reason, commen sience, thats why women turn supper slut when they drink cause their mid brain the part your sexdrive is located is amped by the alcohole, women dont think things through they react based off feelings

honestly I'm sick of the negativity, so much hate on both sides. I really enjoyed reading this thread and how posive it was a nice read. To bad something like this couldn't be had in the general disscussion section, I think this is a great discussion that can applyed to other cartoon/tv shows other than just the new ninja turtles series.

As to the topic at hand, I have to say that this April is handled very well. She is not a Mary-Sue (yet) and she has been handled in a very down to earth way. I hope her ninja training is handled well and she evolves. I don't think she is asexual I think she is just a teen girl who has her head on her shoulders. I kind of like that she isn't flirty and uses her looks to manipulate others. I sometimes see it as a cop out when writers do this to female characters in cartoons. As for Karei she comes across as someone who kicks out of trolling people. I didn't find her character too overtly flirty.

[The Big Bad]

Note to self: be faster when it comes to these responses. Maybe then threads won't die around you.

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

BTW do the 2K3 had female ninjas who're not Karai? I don't remember.

Nope. Karai aside, every Foot employee with a confirmed gender has been male, extending all across their various divisions. And that's a problem, no matter how you slice it. If there's no known women because they canonically exist but the animators didn't think to add them, then that's yet another example of that show's unconscious sexism. If there's no known women because the Foot Clan simply didn't have them among their ranks, it makes the organization seem pretty damn stupid.
Now, one could posit that the ranks of the Foot Ninja, who are covered from head to toe, could include some women among their number, and to be fair, that's what I do in some of my fanfic. Still, it's a cop-out answer. I mean, it's not like the show couldn't have sprung for an additional character model, and it's not like they didn't already have practice telling similarly-shaped characters apart.

I really don't consider Karai as "just a love interest" in that show, so I don't have that problem. And really, because Leo has a crush on her, we must immediately reject Karai's other characteristics as an enemy and a rival?

I need to see more of April if that concern is justifiable. The good thing about being an old franchise is that we all know April wasn't created to be someone's girlfriend.

Again, this is not my point. The problem isn't Karai or April themselves, who I agree have other dimensions to them: the problem is having all of the show's female characters be love interests, making all the women who aren't love interests—say, because they exist in contexts where romance isn't appropriate, etc.--invisible. A show in which all women are love interests is one where awesome characters like Avatar's Azula can't exist. And while the streak has been broken with Ms. Campbell, I'd need to see more characters like her before I can feel optimistic that the show has truly turned a corner.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Sure, if you're willing to settle for good stories. Me personally? I'm shooting for great ones.

This this this this this. A huge part of the reason why works such as Mad Men, The Wire, or, again, Avatar are considered superlative is because their casts include tons of awesome women and/or people of color which allow them to tell stories that they wouldn't otherwise be able to tell, and the reason why they have tons of awesome women/ people of color is because they have tons of women and/or people of color period.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

And the Kraang droids, well. Bugger, they are all in male skin suits. But adding an extra skin suit, would that ruin the joke that they all look the same? I guess there could be a female MIB skin suit as well, but why, if they are meant to look all alike, then there is no reason in that department. Maybe we'll see some new skin suits after the season end, it seems like the Kraang is fairly novice about humans.

Novice? More like willfully ignorant. They've lived among humans for at least fifteen years—more than enough time for them to learn about how humanity works. It's yet another one of those things borne out of production limitations that don't have an in-show explanation.

In any case, yes, part of the point of the Kraang bodysuits is for them all to be identical, which, as you say, arguably makes making female counterparts counterproductive. But here's the question: why, if they can only have one model of human-looking Kraang, couldn't that body have been that of a woman? Again, it goes back to my point: with one exception, every time the show has had to determine whether a character should be male or female, they almost invariably choose to make them male, unless they for some reason—say, because they want them to be love interests--can't be.

Ninja, masters of deceit, manipulation and espionage.

Female ninja, Kunoichi was especially trained to take advantage of others of opposite sex. Mochizuki Chiyome did so with her all-girl Shinobi school (If Mochizuki actually existed, she might be a fabrication from the Edo period) Where she trained her Kunoichi to blend in as geisha, nun and prostitutes to more easily do espionage or assassination jobs.

[...]

She might be a poor choice for first female villain with such a short female character list. But I don't see any malicious undertones in it. Except making karai the underling of Shredder, again. But that I have expressed before, girls are not allowed to rule over Shredder.

I don't agree with your reading of Karai, which, if I'm interpreting correctly, suggests that her flirtatiousness is an affectation. The way I see it, the opposite if true, and one of the key aspects of her character is that she ISN'T manipulating Leonardo, in the sense that she isn't trying to trick him into anything. She's been honest about what she's doing and about who she is: he just doesn't believe her because he's hot for her and has been made stupid by it.

Even so, none of this is actually relevant to my point. The fact that there may or may not be an in story reason doesn't mean that it's not problematic or worthy of condemnation—in fact, there are times where the explanation makes things worse, since it at times serves as half-assed justification for the creator's prejudices. I could write a story in which all people of color are canonically inferior to white people for in-story reasons, and it wouldn't make it any less racist.

And again, a lack of malice doesn't mean a message isn't problematic or that it shouldn't be called out. The fact remains that, in having a limited amount of women, the series unwittingly sends particular messages.

Originally Posted by Keroscene

I think April's always been problematic. To me, she's always struck me as someone who is just... there. I find the Nick version of her preferable to other versions, but even so I get the feeling she is there simply because there has always been an April O'Neil in TMNT and because fans expect her to be there. Her main function in most iterations of TMNT has been to sit and have the Turtles origin story explained to her and then she does have a tendency to either become defined by her relationship to Casey or to slip into the background after that.

This is pretty accurate, and that's sad because theoretically, there's a lot one can do with a character who's meant to be “the normal one” and consciously tries not to let the weirdness affect them. Unfortunately, they require more sophistication and subtlety than animated series can usually provide.

In any case, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that a lot of the problems with April stems again from the “only regular female character” issue. It serves as an incentive to make her inoffensive, which often leads to blandness—she can't be mean, so she has to be nice about everything. She can't be dumb, so she has to be sensible. She can't be helpless, so she has to be able to take care of herself. She can't be slutty so she's made mostly asexual. While none of this makes her a boring character per se, it means that she often gets lost amidst the more flashy characters.

As for Don's crush, I'm not so convinced on that. You might well be the same person I discussed this with on Tumblr so I won't go into all of that. But I think the flowchart is more a result of "too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such" than it is "won't take no for an answer." I don't think it's a "nice guy" thing, I think it's a "teenage boy doesn't know how to behave like a normal person" thing.

That wasn't me on Tumblr, actually. I have an account, but haven't had the opportunity to actually have discussions with anyone.

In any case, I agree with you that the flowchart is, as you put it, a result of being"too insecure/shy to go into a situation without plans and backups and such". However I don't think that his intentions really matter, in the end: no matter what those may be, the fact remains that in basing his interactions with her on a list of predetermined responses based on what he thinks she's like, he is being hostile to her agency and reducing her to what basically amounts to a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book he can win.

Now, it may be that when push comes to shove, Donny would stop himself before he took the chart to its natural conclusion and would indeed learn that using the chart the way that he suggests he'll use it is creepy to the extreme. But if that was the case, we never get to see it. In fact, the episode not only ends with the implication that Donatello has successfully mapped all possible interactions with April, it implies that Donatello is merely being adorable and romantic and geeky, and that April is unharmed by Don's advances. And, in the end, is the problem: not that Donatello is a Nice Guy—as people have said, it's natural enough, given circumstances--but the fact that the show is presenting his Nice Guy-ness as something that is at best cute and rooting-for-worthy, and funny and at worst harmless, which is very problematic.

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Frankly, I think it would be cool to see more females in Space Heroes. The only girl we saw there was Celestial, and she kind of got disintegrated.

This reminds me of one of the reasons why I don't buy “production limitations” as a complete explanation for why most of the extras are men. Theoretically, there's no such limitations when it comes to the Space Heroes scenes, and yet the only female character is once again the one character that couldn't possibly have been a man—a love interest.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

Note to self: be faster when it comes to these responses. Maybe then threads won't die around you.


Again, this is not my point. The problem isn't Karai or April themselves, who I agree have other dimensions to them: the problem is having all of the show's female characters be love interests, making all the women who aren't love interests—say, because they exist in contexts where romance isn't appropriate, etc.--invisible. A show in which all women are love interests is one where awesome characters like Avatar's Azula can't exist. And while the streak has been broken with Ms. Campbell, I'd need to see more characters like her before I can feel optimistic that the show has truly turned a corner.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no problem to have the two recurring girls to be a person of affection by two of the four Turtles.

There's nothing wrong with romance, it's how it's written.

It's good you bring up ATLA btw. Azula also had a crush in an episode, and she and Ty Lee talked about boys. Does this make her a weaker female? Did this emotion destroy her character? Hell no!

Now, did you know Azula was originally a man? Will you be theoretically posting how male!Azula hitting on his (female) crush who is clearly spooked about him a terrible awful writing decision that must be eliminated immediately?

But I digress.

I will have an issue Leo needs to "save her soul" to make Karai a good person. Karai does not need Leo to do things for her, period. And I hope that is what Nick will portray that shade Karai stands in.

As for Don being a "Nice Guy" (I am sorry this word was corrupted, as there ARE genuinely kind men out there who does good things without expecting rewards from women for their work... Wolf in Sheep's clothing was the more honest expression), unless Don made Rockwell attack him and made his brothers tease him so April will be sorry for him; or Don released those rats so he can save April, then no, I won't be all "think of the children" because of a one episode flowchart.

April and Karai are unfortunate enough not to be Turtles so they'll have to sit away from the spotlight with Splinter and Shredder (I remember Black Nerd's recent video he wished Shredder gets more screentime). And this is the reason I wish Venus made through TMNT canon.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think the major problem with female characters being underrepresented or only being seen as having romantic parts is due to TMNT premise itself. You already have 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder, and they are all male and the show revolves around these 6 characters for a majority of the air time (at least 70%). I think the producers/writers might worry about giving too much "air time" to other characters outside of the 6 (whether they are male or female), because then it doesn't focus on the TMNT but more on those other characters and those 6 don't become the "main characters" anymore.

But it's not like mostly-female casts don't do this to males characters too (being underrepresented or only having romantic parts). One cartoon would be Sailor Moon, or in more grown-up shows/movies like UPN's Girlfriends, HBO's Sex And The City, and Waiting To Exhale. (Which are all good shows/movies by the way.)

When you already have 4 main characters in any show, it's difficult in trying to give them all equal "air time" and sometimes it may inadvertently come off as sexist when the show is trying to highlight the friendship/brotherhood/sisterhood aspect when the 4 main characters are all one gender.

While I'm always for strong, independent female characters in TMNT...I just don't see any character (male or female, weak or strong) having significant airtime in the future because you already have those 6 main characters crowding the show (who just so happened to be male), and unfortunately if the show spends too much time explaining/developing any character outside of those six (be it male or female)...it takes away the focus from the TMNT and the direction of the show changes.

(Holding breath as I'm about to get flamed, LOL )

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by JLS

I think the major problem with female characters being underrepresented or only being seen as having romantic parts is due to TMNT premise itself. You already have 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder, and they are all male and the show revolves around these 6 characters for a majority of the air time (at least 70%). I think the producers/writers might worry about giving too much "air time" to other characters outside of the 6 (whether they are male or female), because then it doesn't focus on the TMNT but more on those other characters and those 6 don't become the "main characters" anymore.

But it's not like mostly-female casts don't do this to males characters too (being underrepresented or only having romantic parts). One cartoon would be Sailor Moon, or in more grown-up shows/movies like UPN's Girlfriends, HBO's Sex And The City, and Waiting To Exhale. (Which are all good shows/movies by the way.)

When you already have 4 main characters in any show, it's difficult in trying to give them all equal "air time" and sometimes it may inadvertently come off as sexist when the show is trying to highlight the friendship/brotherhood/sisterhood aspect when the 4 main characters are all one gender.

While I'm always for strong, independent female characters in TMNT...I just don't see any character (male or female, weak or strong) having significant airtime in the future because you already have those 6 main characters crowding the show (who just so happened to be male), and unfortunately if the show spends too much time explaining/developing any character outside of those six (be it male or female)...it takes away the focus from the TMNT and the direction of the show changes.

(Holding breath as I'm about to get flamed, LOL )

I agree :3 My little pony has 6 girls and even though theres spike(a boy) it doesn't focus on him as much as the others. theres like 4 seasons...and about 7 episodes(give or take) centered around him.

[Cure]

That makes My Little Pony sexist.

[plastroncafe]

No, it really doesn't.

[The Stryker]

I'm creating the Masculist Analyses thread right nuh.