TMNT Villain Microseries: Baxter Stockman

[KROW]

Originally Posted by Grimlock

Look at your sig...

Other members have signatures like that. "Posting" stated in the rules means physically typing it out in a forum post, thereby announcing it instead of just having a banner there as an option for others.

Strugler is advertising and since he only logs in to do so, he is also spamming. Jester does not.

[Grimlock]

Originally Posted by Jester

Oh, right. Because every post I make, regardless of if it says, "Go to www.gogreenmachine.org!!" or not has my signature in it, then I must be spamming the forums just to get the views for the site.


You're reaching, Mr. Dinobot.

Why else would you have a sig like that? You are a hypocrite and just because you have all those posts and have been a member for as long as you have somehow you feel entitled. Like only a select group on this forum has the right to do anything. Gimme a break. This guy is doing his thing, let him. For a guy, or woman, called ''Jester'' on a Tmnt forum, you sure do come off like someone who has their pantis in a bunch.

[Jester]

I'd have no problem with Strugler if he took the time to post aside from his monthly visits and actually became a part of the community. It's not some miracle time frame or post count. It's taking the time to talk to people for more than just an attempt to get people to visit their fan page. We have other members here who post links to their reviews of new issues, BUT they also have spent time in the community and don't just pop in when they have a new review to pimp. There's the difference.

[AquaParade]

Seriously, some of you guys are getting this territorial over some message board space? He's hardly hogging the room...

I welcome the early previews. Thanks!

[corvus]

Yeah I'd expect it from powder. But everyone else is a little disappointing. It's not as if he posted a thread just saying "visit my website" it had a preview that no one else posted! I sometimes don't visit this site for long periods of time in between issues because there's nothing to talk about. Am I not part of your "community"?

[MikeandRaph87]

Spoiler:

So this flyborg concept we came up with actually became cannon! Baxter uses them to extract information from the Technodrome as they build the Technodrome.

I was surprised that Baxter staged the need for Krang's help thinking he got in over his head per usual. Nicely done!

The fugtioid concept will resurface I bet but in this case it will be Baxter Stockman's mind trapped in a Flyborg! The captured Fuitoid is the key to Baxter's plan whatever it may be. We only have some details of it.

[The Gunslinger]

Pretty solid issue. Thanks for the preview.

Spoiler:

It will be interesting to see whether or not this issue is foreshadowing Baxter Stockman's future or simply referencing/using past TMNT concepts.

[Metropoliskid41]

I really dug, Erik hit it out of the park again, another awesome character development issue that adds a whole new layer of depth to Baxter.

Obviously some very interesting developments in this one, the big question is nod to the past or foreshadowing...tough to say...I'm hoping for the latter. Mentioning Fugitoid, who mastered mind transfer definitely has me leaning that way.

I think the thing that we'll see addressed first will be Baxter's sneaky tech heist. I look for that to have implications during City Fall.

[Desslok]

Spoiler:

Baxter playing with mutant flies and cyborg parts = Recipe for disaster.

Baxter is smart enough to know that Krang is just using him, but you know that even with his careful planning and strategizing something horrible is going to happen to him. It's his DESTINY TO SUFFER!

[Crabfight]

Originally Posted by Metropoliskid41

I think the thing that we'll see addressed first will be Baxter's sneaky tech heist. I look for that to have implications during City Fall.

Can't wait for it, too!

Baxter's always been my favorite TMNT villain since a kid, and I really like what they've done here. I was worried that the writers were going to jump the gun on mutating/deforming/whatevering Baxter. I'm sure such an event is inevitable - and I look forward to it - but I'm really glad they're tapping his potential as a human villain first.

The way they've set this up, I'd be okay with the flyborg being an homage to past Baxters or foreshadowing to his fate. Either way, I hope he gets an arc as the lead villain against the turtles, since he's clearly going to betray Krang soon.

What I'd really love is for him to be instrumental in Krang's next defeat, but become more powerful in the process, making him the next baddie that the turtles have to defeat and, accidentally, mutant/deform/whatever.

I love Baxter and I really enjoyed this issue!

[DrSpengler]

Here's my review of TMNT Villains Microseries #2: Baxter at TMNT Entity.

A solid read. I was especially impressed with the subtleties between Baxter and his father; it's very sincere for only 3 pages. You get the impression that Baxter's dad had a good heart and wanted to nurture his son's natural talents, but may not have been the most affectionate individual, or at least not the most compassionate (as his hardlined lessons about luck, excuses and second chances indicate). It doesn't villainize his father with broad, blunt strokes (like if he'd been a wife-beater or something), but instead offers a more nuanced explanation as to how Baxter could grow up to be so cunning yet so cold.

I know I shouldn't be comparing it to "Insane in the Membrane", but I felt it actually worked well as a compliment to that origin story, too (not that any of his 4Kids origin has necessarily been transferred over to his IDW incarnation). In that episode, his mother was shown to be the direct opposite of his father in this issue; a caring, generous, supportive and deeply loving individual. Assuming she was like that in IDW, and died when Baxter was young as well, you can see how he'd grow up to be cold and cruel with no one to influence him but his father.

And dude, isn't that cover just the best?

The present set stuff was good, too. The Flyborg was a cute combo of the two things Baxter has been transformed into in the past. Hopefully he'll get to keep his humanity in this universe, but we'll see.

[corvus]

Really liked Kuhns art in this one. The flyborg was amazing, it looked like something out of Hellboy.

[Cipher]

Monologue boxes? Check.

Shoehorned, usurping-the-father back story? Check.

And yet, despite hitting a lot of my ire points from the Krang issue, I enjoyed this quite a lot. The developments this promises for the main series are interesting, the issue was fun and exciting. Flyborg was also a pretty cool one-off.

Not a classic, not even really a great character piece, but completely enjoyable.

EDIT --

Also, wow, Spengs, I think it's going a little far to call "Insane in the Membrane" a quintessential origin or TMNT story. The content was shocking for a Saturday morning cartoon, but that back story's so hammy I could serve it Christmas Eve.

[Redeemer]

getting back on topic, I thought the issue was pretty weak without the guys in green.

Spoiler:

Flyborg was awesome though, loved the concept and Idea, I just wish they didn't kill him off so quickly, hopefully baxter will get to make another one.

I am a little curious to see what Old hob will be like....

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Monologue boxes? Check.

Shoehorned, usurping-the-father back story? Check.

And yet, despite hitting a lot of my ire points from the Krang issue, I enjoyed this quite a lot. The developments this promises for the main series are interesting, the issue was fun and exciting. Flyborg was also a pretty cool one-off.

Not a classic, not even really a great character piece, but completely enjoyable.

EDIT --

Also, wow, Spengs, I think it's going a little far to call "Insane in the Membrane" a quintessential origin or TMNT story. The content was shocking for a Saturday morning cartoon, but that back story's so hammy I could serve it Christmas Eve.

You raise a good point I hadn't considered regarding the similarity between Krang's and Baxter's micros in terms of their flashbacks to their fathers. Perhaps this series should be retitled "TMNT: Daddy Issues"? In a way, though, when read back to back, I kind of appreciate the duality between the two Micros, now. Both villains were raised trying to live up to their father's expectations and eventually meet and exceed them in different ways. Now, despite their similarities, they're at one another's throats.

From that perspective, the repetitiveness isn't so unpleasant.

But I have to disagree with you about the narrative boxes. In this day of Mark Millars and Brian Michael Bendises, I enjoy a comic with a bit of verbal meat to it. Or at least have a comic that takes more than 3 minutes to read, anyway.

Certainly, if the ongoing series was inundated with narrative boxes and inner monologues, the verbosity would be infuriating. But these are introspective character-themed oneshots intended to compliment the storylines of the ongoing, so I find their expanded use of text a pleasant diversion.

Re: "Insane in the Membrane", I'll have to disagree with you, there. I felt it covered the tragedies of Baxter's history with a sort of grace uncommon to the 4Kids series and gave him a Three Dimensional quality he'd never enjoyed before. His back story wasn't innovative, no, but it was delivered exceptionally well (in my opinion) and left you with a lot to think about regarding the character. There was more than just the tragedy of his mother dying, but his failure to live up to her expectations and how the knowledge of that haunts him.

If it didn't do anything for you, that's cool, but I felt it was an element to his character best held onto for future incarnations (not that future writers are obligated to use it, but that it should be considered).

[Metropoliskid41]

Spengs I think you really hit the nail on the head with the Stockman Sr. Dynamic with Baxter. It kind of reminded me of the Lionel Luther & Lex dynamic in Smallville. However unlike Lionel, I don't think Baxter's dad had evil or ruthless intentions, he was just trying to prepare his son. But the end result seems to be similar.

[MikeandRaph87]

I don't know. The more the series progressed Lionel Luthor got closer to the light and Lex got closer to the dark effectively switching places to the point Lex kills his own father. We don't know enough really to compare or if Baxter's father is still around. It would be interesting if he was opposed to being a building block for the character like Quanin is for Krang. I was thinking upon reading the issue the Sins of Fathers theme in the Spider-Man: The Animated Series. The mistakes or action fathers took shaping the characters.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

But I have to disagree with you about the narrative boxes. In this day of Mark Millars and Brian Michael Bendises, I enjoy a comic with a bit of verbal meat to it. Or at least have a comic that takes more than 3 minutes to read, anyway.

My distaste for the modern comic industry's love affair with monologue boxes has less to do with their role as an aspect of the medium and more with how they're used. They're a device unique to comics, and when they're used well, and sparingly, and are justified in the same manner a prose writer must justify the decision to write first-person (Why would this character be telling this story? What would he/she sound like?), they can really streamline a narrative and lend a character a voice.

When used strictly to be verbose, up the time spent reading each page, avoid showing something more smoothly through action and dialogue and deliver exposition under the guise of being character development, they're just awful. That's how the Big Two use them (DC can't get enough), and that's how they're used here. They're here because they scream "This is a character issue!" despite being so, so ineloquent and unnecessary. To IDW's great credit, the main series hardly ever falls back on them, but that just makes their inclusion (mandate?) in these micro-series issues more glaring and juvenile.

Don't have anything to say? Put it in a monologue box. Suddenly you're "building character," even if the content is purely expository, has no unique voice, and wouldn't fly for a second in first-person prose. I'm going to go ahead and point out that, if you didn't know the content of the issues, you could switch any of Baxter's boxes with any of Krang's last issue and never be able to tell the difference; neither have any distinct characterization.

Certainly, if the ongoing series was inundated with narrative boxes and inner monologues, the verbosity would be infuriating. But these are introspective character-themed oneshots intended to compliment the storylines of the ongoing, so I find their expanded use of text a pleasant diversion.

And see, it works at casting that illusion. But you'll realize they don't really give you that insight at all, or if they do (a la the Krang micro), they do so only in the most ham-fisted, narratively excessive way, when we could gather everything through scenes and dialogue instead.

What did we really glean from their use here, or in Krang's issue, that wasn't already well enough conveyed through the actual scenes, or couldn't have been easily integrated into the story with minimal tweaking? Some, I'd guess, but not much.

This is arguably a small nitpick, but it is, in my opinion, a bad writing element, and it's in this issue so I felt it was worth noting.

Re: "Insane in the Membrane", I'll have to disagree with you, there. I felt it covered the tragedies of Baxter's history with a sort of grace uncommon to the 4Kids series and gave him a Three Dimensional quality he'd never enjoyed before. His back story wasn't innovative, no, but it was delivered exceptionally well (in my opinion) and left you with a lot to think about regarding the character. There was more than just the tragedy of his mother dying, but his failure to live up to her expectations and how the knowledge of that haunts him.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there, then. I respect the episode for how much it was able to do within the confines of its rating. But as a Baxter story, or general TMNT story, I always thought its notoriety came from being the first piece of fiction to give any back story or depth to Baxter -- not that what the way it chose to do so was worthy of any particular praise. I still think it's a little generic to be a quintessential part of the character, even if IDW skirted similar lines here.

You raise a good point I hadn't considered regarding the similarity between Krang's and Baxter's micros in terms of their flashbacks to their fathers. Perhaps this series should be retitled "TMNT: Daddy Issues"? In a way, though, when read back to back, I kind of appreciate the duality between the two Micros, now. Both villains were raised trying to live up to their father's expectations and eventually meet and exceed them in different ways. Now, despite their similarities, they're at one another's throats.

I do like this idea, now that you point it out. Maybe it'll read more pointedly when they're back-to-back in a trade.

[Erik Burnham]

Ouch.

Well, caption boxes are now used in place of thought balloons -- as well as for other narrative work. When a character is alone or otherwise doesn't have someone to talk to, this is what's used.

(Go back and translate any given issue of Amazing Spider-Man from the 70s from thought balloons to captions and I'll bet you find that they can multiply fast.)

Sorry you thought it was poor writing; thing is, caps are the only option in many cases, and certainly helps things be as clear to someone who hasn't followed the whole story.

Ah well, better luck next time.

As for similarity to Krang? Coincidence!

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Erik Burnham

Ouch.

Well, caption boxes are now used in place of thought balloons -- as well as for other narrative work. When a character is alone or otherwise doesn't have someone to talk to, this is what's used.

(Go back and translate any given issue of Amazing Spider-Man from the 70s from thought balloons to captions and I'll bet you find that they can multiply fast.)

Sorry you thought it was poor writing; thing is, caps are the only option in many cases, and certainly helps things be as clear to someone who hasn't followed the whole story.

Ah well, better luck next time.

As for similarity to Krang? Coincidence!

Aw, man. Every time I criticize this series, the authors pop in immediately! Where's a guy to complain? (I actually really appreciate that; please keep doing it.)

Anyway, I definitely understand their purpose (as well as their replacing the equally unweildy thought balloons, though I disagree on their effect and purpose being strictly 1:1) and of course unnecessary dialogue balloons are even worse. (See Peter Laird's Volume 4.) I think the goal should be to convey most of what is contained in the boxes through believable dialogue and action, no frills, and, in a lot of cases in modern comics, some in this issue, the content is already in the page! (I.e., the boxes are skip-able.) By and large, I feel it should be a case of, "Would I write this in first-person as prose?" or "Would I have the character narrate this if it were a film, or could I find another way to communicate it?" And the answer to that last part is probably "yes" more often than not.

Again, though, I did enjoy the issue, and I've seen you do great character-writing at IDW (which makes the dull monologue boxes slightly more disappointing). This particular practice is just part of a trend that's become something of a pet-peeve of mine, and that I really do think harms the work, so I couldn't help but include it as part of my thoughts on the issue.