Donatello as Leader

[Rooish]

I can't see either Don or Mike willingly following Raph. He could probably bully them to. Raph hasn't really earned their respect to lead.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Rooish

I can't see either Don or Mike willingly following Raph. He could probably bully them to. Raph hasn't really earned their respect to lead.

if we are going by respect...I'm pretty sure only Leo has their respect XD

Raph doesn't respect Donnie
Donnie doesn't respect Raph
Mikey doesn't respect either of them
and no one respects Mikey XD

[Gwydion]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

if we are going by respect...I'm pretty sure only Leo has their respect XD

Raph doesn't respect Donnie
Donnie doesn't respect Raph
Mikey doesn't respect either of them
and no one respects Mikey XD

LOL Yup, that sounds about right. XD

I would like to point out, though, that my younger brother never respected me as a kid, but he would still occasionally follow my lead simply because I was older. Having someone's respect would certainly help in a leader/follower situation (which is one reason why Leo is the best choice), but it's not always required.

[Davetello]

I'm not sure Donnie's strong or assertive enough to be leader. He's way too gentle and a born pacifist. In 2k12 he seems to see the good in many people and would probably be wilfully naive - he'd go against his better judgement. Leonardo has morals but he's no pushover and generally will not tolerate serious attempts to belittle his authority. On the other hand, Raph would probably bully Donnie into submission in terms of altering decisions. Raph's aggression could intimidate Donatello to the point where we'd be back to where we are now with Raph and Leo clashing often.

Donnie is second-in-command in FW but that Donnie seemed more secure and sure of himself. This iteration is still developing - he's the genius we know and love but he's still very childlike in his emotions. He has an innate desire to form attachments to others (e.g. crush on April, he's fairly emotional in that sense). He needs contact and I feel he would be easily manipulated as leader. Overall I just feel he isn't confident or bold enough, at this moment.

[Timmetry]

I always felt Donnie was second in command. In the shellraiser, he's pretty much the leader. With that said, I don't think he'd make a good leader at this time.

I'm perfectly fine with Donnie's crush on April (although it's a bit over the top at times), but I wouldn't want all of them to have a crush on her.

Kinda off topic, I think it would have been more dramatic if Leo sacrificed one of his brothers (that's where I thought it was going with Splinter's comment to Leo). I imagine a scene where one of the others are in Leo's spot instead and while the other two try to save him, Leo orders their retreat. It could have set up a possible dark Leo storyline as well as increasing tension between him and (most likely) Raph. Then the others could try their own hand as leader.

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by Timmetry

Kinda off topic, I think it would have been more dramatic if Leo sacrificed one of his brothers (that's where I thought it was going with Splinter's comment to Leo). I imagine a scene where one of the others are in Leo's spot instead and while the other two try to save him, Leo orders their retreat. It could have set up a possible dark Leo storyline as well as increasing tension between him and (most likely) Raph. Then the others could try their own hand as leader.

It will obviously never happen on a kid-friendly show such as this, but can you imagine if we got a more 'mature' show and one of the brothers was actually killed off? Yes, the show would not seem 'whole', but the possibilites for ramifications, storylines and character development could be endless. I'm not talking SAINW style, but an aftermath which lasts full seasons. It's obviously been touched in SAINW and in the comics, but it's never been explored to that level before. We've seen temporary and fleeting loss before (one example is when Leo went to train under the Ancient One in 2k3 then returned home to find his family missing) but never anything permanent or long-lasting in terms of on the screen.

I'm committing some cardinal sins here as I also suggested earlier that killing Splinter in 2k3 may have been a good idea. I just feel sometimes that the envelope could be pushed. After all, we've seen the protaganist(s) die in other franchises before so why not in the turtles? They would plumb the depths of grief and despair and it would be interesting (and heartbreaking) to see how the surviving brothers would cope.

Before someone abuses me for saying this, I'm simply trying to be open-minded and consider all possibilities and uncomfortable territory.

[Timmetry]

I would hate to see them kill off one of the turtles, mostly because I love them all that I couldn't chose one for them to kill off. I have thought about it before and I think if Mikey was killed, the entire team would fall apart, go their separate ways, and be generally more solemn. If Leo died, I think Raph or Don would step up and everyone would generally carry on as usual. That would probably be my choice, but then Raph/Don as leader would lose their personality for the most part.

I think killing Splinter would have been 100 times better than Flash Forward. I actually really liked the storyline in Mirage when Splinter was killed off. Obviously I wouldn't want it to happen next season, but it would be phenomenal if Nick did this down the line. As you said, though, won't happen on such a kid friendly show.

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by Timmetry

I would hate to see them kill off one of the turtles, mostly because I love them all that I couldn't chose one for them to kill off. I have thought about it before and I think if Mikey was killed, the entire team would fall apart, go their separate ways, and be generally more solemn. If Leo died, I think Raph or Don would step up and everyone would generally carry on as usual. That would probably be my choice, but then Raph/Don as leader would lose their personality for the most part.

I think killing Splinter would have been 100 times better than Flash Forward. I actually really liked the storyline in Mirage when Splinter was killed off. Obviously I wouldn't want it to happen next season, but it would be phenomenal if Nick did this down the line. As you said, though, won't happen on such a kid friendly show.

I see what you're saying, but it would be a case of art imitating life i.e. we all face the loss of loved ones - it's inevitable, inescapable, undeniable. To see the boys go through the same thing would ironically make them more human and even more relatable. They'd be experiencing what we have all felt or will feel - that torment over losing someone we care about. That grief and 'finality' offers so many ways to develop the personalities of the three remaining turtles, as well as the supporting characters. We could even see flashbacks to moments each turtle shared with the deceased brother, and it would all seem more visceral and haunting.

I'm one of these guys who likes to see how far things can be taken. I respect people who are willing to do things which others may frown upon. I won't deny that the dark, tormenting side of the turtles very much appeals to me. The cartoons so far have been terrific, I couldn't ask for more from them. However, to see a high-budget live-action show with zero restraints on violence would liberate the writers to really tell some controversial stories.

Like I say, it will never happen, because the turtles are primarily aimed at kids - we all know that by now. But hypothetically it would be awesome.

As for Splinter being killed off in v4, we spoke about it the other day - it really wasn't fully explored enough or developed in the aftermath for me. It was a opportunity missed.

In 2k3, I'd have liked to have seen Splinter murdered by Shredder in "Exodus". Leo's rage in the first half of season 4 would then have been amplified ten-fold, and the other turtles would change as well - Mikey would experience the ultimate loss of his innocence, Donnie would become less gentle, and Raph...well I think we all know what would happen to him. Ch'rell would have been banished (let's assume that he kills Splinter seconds before they are transmatted off the ship so the boys cannot react) but he could have reappeared halfway through the season. The first half of the season could have been centred around their loss with the boys losing control in side stores which were just a backdrop to what is to come and a support to their character development. The guys would have been bottling up their anger and the final 13 episodes could have dealt with their cold-blooded and calculated revenge. They could have even stretched it another 13 ep season in place of Ninja Tribunal and the series could have ended with Ch'rell and Karai's deaths. The final scene of the series could be a flash forward 30 years showing us that the guys never recovered from the brutal way Splinter died and they drifted apart. Ironically, the turtles universes would have come full circle - in Mirage issue 1 sensei wants them to take revenge on Shredder for killing Yoshi (although we know Shredder is reanimated with the worms later), and this culmination of 4kids would have centred on their revenge on Shredder for killing Splinter.

I'm really just brainstorming here. Obviously this was never going to happen but it's fun to think about.

[BabyTurtles]

I just can't even imagine one of the boys getting killed off
.......nope I would rage.....

it just wouldn't be the same....and once the loss wears off, the turtles just wouldn't have the same dynamic.

....T^T.......

[Cure]

It's not so much that Donnie can't be leader; it's just if he was, Leo would literally bring nothing to the dynamic.

Donnie-Brains AND leader
Mikey-Funny one
Raph-Tough one
Leo-Space Heroes fan

And no, Donnie crushing on April is already too much.

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

I just can't even imagine one of the boys getting killed off
.......nope I would rage.....

it just wouldn't be the same....and once the loss wears off, the turtles just wouldn't have the same dynamic.

....T^T.......

Hi BabyTurtles. It's nice to finally make your acquaintance - I've enjoyed reading your posts as a lurker.

The issue of the dynamic being destroyed, and that which makes the turtles 'whole' is something which I had considered. However, we're talking about talented people here (writers, actors etc) - they'd find a way to make it work.

A big part of it would be that the loss would linger for a long time - bear in mind that the turtles would never have experienced loss before really, and certainly not the devastating loss of one of their beloved brothers.

It really would be interesting to see how far this could go. It's all very well saying 'I wouldn't like to see it happen' etc, but imagine it's a world where business and money is irrelevant (after all this is all hypothetical). Wouldn't it be great just to see what it would be like? If seeing one of our beloved turtles dying was far more horrible than we had anticipated, we would still have all of the other universes - they're not going anywhere. And after Next Mutation I think we can survive anything.

I'd just love to see it all transpire - bring this franchise into a world where there is no happy ending.

EDIT: and we haven't even mentioned about how it would completely destroy Splinter. He's already lost Yoshi, Tang Shen, and everyone else he ever cared about. The turtles were his last chance at a family; his salvation. The loss of one would not only devastate him in terms of the individual turtle's death, but it would bring to the fore just how vulnerable the family is - if one of them can die, they all can.

A big part of the show would be if the wise old sage could overcome the pain of losing one of his sons. That would be an incredible challenge even for sensei.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Hi BabyTurtles. It's nice to finally make your acquaintance - I've enjoyed reading your posts as a lurker.

The issue of the dynamic being destroyed, and that which makes the turtles 'whole' is something which I had considered. However, we're talking about talented people here (writers, actors etc) - they'd find a way to make it work.

A big part of it would be that the loss would linger for a long time - bear in mind that the turtles would never have experienced loss before really, and certainly not the devastating loss of one of their beloved brothers.

It really would be interesting to see how far this could go. It's all very well saying 'I wouldn't like to see it happen' etc, but imagine it's a world where business and money is irrelevant (after all this is all hypothetical). Wouldn't it be great just to see what it would be like? If seeing one of our beloved turtles dying was far more horrible than we had anticipated, we would still have all of the other universes - they're not going anywhere. And after Next Mutation I think we can survive anything.

I'd just love to see it all transpire - bring this franchise into a world where there is no happy ending.

EDIT: and we haven't even mentioned about how it would completely destroy Splinter. He's already lost Yoshi, Tang Shen, and everyone else he ever cared about. The turtles were his last chance at a family; his salvation. The loss of one would not only devastate him in terms of the individual turtle's death, but it would bring to the fore just how vulnerable the family is - if one of them can die, they all can.

A big part of the show would be if the wise old sage could overcome the pain of losing one of his sons. That would be an incredible challenge even for sensei.

you're killing me inside


I guess it would be interesting though.....has it happened in a TMNT comic yet? (cause I need to see if I can even handle it!)

still not sure if I'd want that to happen in the Nick show.....maybe if they make another version and it's completely dark! then I guess I'd be okay...
(if that ever happens XD)

also nice to meet you too!! you liked my posts as a lurker? XD (I have good posts!!)

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

you're killing me inside


I guess it would be interesting though.....has it happened in a TMNT comic yet? (cause I need to see if I can even handle it!)

still not sure if I'd want that to happen in the Nick show.....maybe if they make another version and it's completely dark! then I guess I'd be okay...
(if that ever happens XD)

also nice to meet you too!! you liked my posts as a lurker? XD (I have good posts!!)

Ha, I'm sorry There's a really masochistic part of me however which feels the pain of the characters as they do. I'm quite an empathic person and I really relate to what they're going through, ya know? I feel it like they do and in a way that's the best feeling for me because it feels so real and so strong, it's really like being alive. In a sense I can be upset and heartbroken through suspending my disbelief, but a few hours later that pain will dissipate as essentially I know that this is fiction and it's not real. It's sort of like being able to feel things very strongly and to feel vulnerable without the consequences and pain of real life. Does that make any sense? I mean I was nearly crying in the cinema when I was wondering if Bruce really had died as Rises was ending. I had such a lump in my throat it was untrue. And at that moment I felt a very strong connection. I think it's a coping mechanism because it reminds me to be compassionate and caring but with none of the actual responsibilites which real life always brings in this respect. I'm verging on the philosophical here but I hope you understand what I mean.

That's the best type of art - the art that draws you in and gives you as strong a sense as possible of what the characters are feeling. And art which really affects us and plays strongly on our emotions (particularly our sorrowful emotions) is the ultimate form of expression, in my view. It's relatively easy to make someone laugh through film, or to scare them. But to make them feel such a connection to the characters that they suspend their disbelief to such a point that they feel like these turtles are their own family? Well, that would be an accomplishment in my eyes.

We've had SAINW in 2k3 and the hinting of Donnie being the only remaining turtle in the comics (the machine). However, unless I've forgotten something we've never seen a turtle die and actually dealt with a long aftermath and character study of the surviving turtles afterwards. It's something I really want to see but, as I say, it's a pipedream. Well, unless I win the Euro lottery and can afford to buy the property. Lol. As I say, I wouldn't even want it to happen in Nick - the show is too light for that and it would be a mess. It could have worked in 2k3 (Splinter as I suggested) but where it would really work is in an animated or live-action show on the same sort of rating as Spawn TAS.

Yes, I read your posts and most other people's. I know who most of the regular posters are. I've been reading the forums on and off for years but I was postponing actually posting on forums for a while as I had other commitments. Now I have more free time and well...here I am.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Spoiler:

Ha, I'm sorry There's a really masochistic part of me however which feels the pain of the characters as they do. I'm quite an empathic person and I really relate to what they're going through, ya know? I feel it like they do and in a way that's the best feeling for me because it feels so real and so strong, it's really like being alive. In a sense I can be upset and heartbroken through suspending my disbelief, but a few hours later that pain will dissipate as essentially I know that this is fiction and it's not real. It's sort of like being able to feel things very strongly and to feel vulnerable without the consequences and pain of real life. Does that make any sense? I mean I was nearly crying in the cinema when I was wondering if Bruce really had died as Rises was ending. I had such a lump in my throat it was untrue. And at that moment I felt a very strong connection. I think it's a coping mechanism because it reminds me to be compassionate and caring but with none of the actual responsibilites which real life always brings in this respect. I'm verging on the philosophical here but I hope you understand what I mean.

That's the best type of art - the art that draws you in and gives you as strong a sense as possible of what the characters are feeling. And art which really affects us and plays strongly on our emotions (particularly our sorrowful emotions) is the ultimate form of expression, in my view. It's relatively easy to make someone laugh through film, or to scare them. But to make them feel such a connection to the characters that they suspend their disbelief to such a point that they feel like these turtles are their own family? Well, that would be an accomplishment in my eyes.

We've had SAINW in 2k3 and the hinting of Donnie being the only remaining turtle in the comics (the machine). However, unless I've forgotten something we've never seen a turtle die and actually dealt with a long aftermath and character study of the surviving turtles afterwards. It's something I really want to see but, as I say, it's a pipedream. Well, unless I win the Euro lottery and can afford to buy the property. Lol. As I say, I wouldn't even want it to happen in Nick - the show is too light for that and it would be a mess. It could have worked in 2k3 (Splinter as I suggested) but where it would really work is in an animated or live-action show on the same sort of rating as Spawn TAS.

Yes, I read your posts and most other people's. I know who most of the regular posters are. I've been reading the forums on and off for years but I was postponing actually posting on forums for a while as I had other commitments. Now I have more free time and well...here I am.

okay I'm putting your quote in a spoiler tag XD (just in case people get mad)

actually I wouldn't have minded if they tried killing off a turtle in 2k3. The show was already a darker version of TMNT.......I think I would have been okay with it...(as long as it wasn't Mikey....even if he would be a good candidate T^T)

Splinter would have worked, that would have been interesting.
(I think I would have preferred that to fast forward XD.....) not that I hated fast forward....it just wasn't my favorite season...

also I get all emotional over characters too XD don't know if you watched Legend of Korra.....but I cried when Korra kissed Mako in front of Bolin XD...(but then I kinda laughed cause he looked funny.......I cried laughed)

yay~ glad you're finally joining the Technodrome~ *_*

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

okay I'm putting you quote in a spoiler XD (just in case people get mad)

actually I wouldn't have minded if they tried killing off a turtle in 2k3. The show was already a darker version of TMNT.......I think I would have been okay with it...(as long as it wasn't Mikey....even if he would be a good candidate T^T)

Splinter would have worked, that would have been interesting.
(I think I would have preferred that to fast forward XD.....) not that I hated fast forward....it just wasn't my favorite season...

also I get all emotional over characters too XD don't know if you watched Legend of Korra.....but I cried when Korra kissed Mako in front of Bolin XD...(but then I kinda laughed cause he looked funny.......I cried laughed)

yay~ glad you're finally joining the Technodrome~ *_*

Yes, apologies for anything which should be spoilered. I'm not sure what the exact protocol is as it's a bit of a grey area. In a sense everything we discuss about the turtles could be put in a spoiler lol. I'd hate to ruin anyone's enjoyment tbh.

That's why I felt 2k3 would have been acceptable for it. We all know it's by far the most 'mature' of the three series' and it adapts parts of the Mirage run. It could definitely have worked in there. I'd have preferred to see Splinter die as I say above, but one of the boys could have worked too. I didn't particularly enjoy FF but I watched it because it was the Turtles. It's a bit like Dexter - I tend to watch 2k3 until the end of Ninja Tribunal then stop (other than Turtles Forever) in thee same way I stopped my second rewatch of Dexter after the end of season 4.

I haven't saw Avatar or Korra yet but I plan to one day. Interestingly, I decided last week to start getting into anime so I will be watching shows like Fullmetal Alchemist, Monster and Mirai Nikki soon. The only anime I have ever seen is Death Note, which was completely engrossing.

Anyway, we're going of topic a bit. Again, it's nice to meet you. You can call me David.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Davetello

Yes, apologies for anything which should be spoilered. I'm not sure what the exact protocol is as it's a bit of a grey area. In a sense everything we discuss about the turtles could be put in a spoiler lol. I'd hate to ruin anyone's enjoyment tbh.

That's why I felt 2k3 would have been acceptable for it. We all know it's by far the most 'mature' of the three series' and it adapts parts of the Mirage run. It could definitely have worked in there. I'd have preferred to see Splinter die as I say above, but one of the boys could have worked too. I didn't particularly enjoy FF but I watched it because it was the Turtles. It's a bit like Dexter - I tend to watch 2k3 until the end of Ninja Tribunal then stop (other than Turtles Forever) in thee same way I stopped my second rewatch of Dexter after the end of season 4.

I haven't saw Avatar or Korra yet but I plan to one day. Interestingly, I decided last week to start getting into anime so I will be watching shows like Fullmetal Alchemist, Monster and Mirai Nikki soon. The only anime I have ever seen is Death Note, which was completely engrossing.

Anyway, we're going of topic a bit. Again, it's nice to meet you. You can call me David.

the spoiler tag also helps to contain long quotes :3 not just for spoiling stuff XD

and sorry!!! I should have put that Legend of Korra spoiler..... in a spoiler tag...........sorry.......

yea...I could have done without fast foward (turtles in the future just didn't seem right...and I missed April and Casey) but I watched it and I'd be lying if I didn't enjoy some episodes XD

[Davetello]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

the spoiler tag also helps to contain long quotes :3 not just for spoiling stuff XD

and sorry!!! I should have put that Legend of Korra spoiler..... in a spoiler tag...........sorry.......

yea...I could have done without fast foward (turtles in the future just didn't seem right...and I missed April and Casey) but I watched it and I'd be lying if I didn't enjoy some episodes XD

Ahh yes, fair point. And don't worry about the Korra stuff - it's fine. Avatar isn't on my imminent list anyway so by the time I get round to Korra I will have forgotten I expect lol.

Yep, Baxter and Bishop's redemption, the Journal and some of the stuff with Sh'okanobo was good stuff.

I'm going offline. It's almost 7am here in the UK and I have to shower and do some chores. I'm playin football (sorry, 'soccer' lol) later today, so can' stay online all day.

Talk soon BabyTurtles.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

I feel if anyone should take Leo's place Raph should be given the second chance.

Well according to Partners in Kryme, Raph is the leader ;P

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Cure

It's not so much that Donnie can't be leader; it's just if he was, Leo would literally bring nothing to the dynamic.

I wouldn't mind if they were to make him into a geek of sorts. Like, a traditional otaku in some sense. The one obsessed with Japanese arts & philosophy (not so much anime & the like). Maybe he reads manga, does calligraphy/painting, watches samurai flicks, etc. Gives him something to nerd out over and aspire to.

[BubblyShell22]

Hey, Dave, I get where you're coming from with the death of a Turtle, but I'd like to see it in an alternate universe type of thing if they were to do it in the Nick series. Maybe be where the Turtle really isn't dead but they see what could come of it if one of them or Splinter dies.