Turtles and Splinter's Theology?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Here's a question I haven't come across any discussion for yet, and since it's something that came up while working on a fic, I decided to ask it here. Is there any canon mention anywhere of what faith/religion Splinter and the boys follow? I'm guessing that Splinter would probably be Buddhist, and might raise them up that way, but I've never seen anything to confirm this- and there have been Christmas-themed issues and cartoon eps (Christmas Aliens comes to mind) and there was the "Easter Special" in OT.

[turtlefanforever]

And for good reason too, I don't think theres any need to bring religion into it. The holiday episodes are just to please the masses.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Probably zen Buddhism, or one of the esoteric schools of Nihon Buddhism. This was at least partially confirmed in the IDW series.

[turtlefanforever]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Probably zen Buddhism, or one of the esoteric schools of Nihon Buddhism. This was at least partially confirmed in the IDW series.

Quote or example?

[plastroncafe]

I think it's a bit indigenous to suggest that religion should play no role in a franchise where Christmas is recognized and celebrated. Ubiquitous background Christian holidays observances are still religious holiday observances.

Having said that, in Volume One of Mirage, I think it's Mike who says to April that this is really only their second real Christmas.

As for what the Turtles and Splinter believe...
We often see them meditating, and utilizing incense while they do so. Even going so far as to attain a trace-like state that allows them to overcome the vacuum of space, and for Splinter to astrally project.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this surely points to one Eastern Tradition or another, because I highly doubt the creators have done the legwork required to create an accurate portrayal. It's...pure Orientalism at work, and little else.

Realistically, however, chances are good that Hamato Yoshi was connected in some way to either a Shinto or Buddhist temple, even if he was not a practitioner of either faith. According to Wikipedia, a dubious source at best, it appears that a majority of Japan's population identifies as non-practitioner.

[blindturtle02]

Interesting topic there Duckie. Never really thought about what they practice or if they practice any religion at all. Personally, I have absolutely no idea! Having never read the comics, I'm mainly familiar with the animated universe. But I've always imagined Splinter to be into... something. What, Idk. ZB comes to mind. Have no idea when the turtles are concerned. Guess we'll have to bust a Barny and use our imaginations!(insert moronic dinosaur laughter) Seriously though, thanks for posting this topic. I think it's worth pondering and discussion.

[Candy Kappa]

I'm 99% certain we've had a thread about this before, way back.

Honestly, most religions are human centric, I highly doubt the turtles would embrace a religion having some primates as the superior species as them selves aren't human ( save IDW). Zen Budddism or Shinto would be The most commonsense ones seeing Splinter is human or rat, always Japanese. Being a comics property, spirits and extra dimensional beings can be a reality, so generic spiritualism isn't odd either, seeing astral projection and other supernatural elements can be real in comics.

[BubblyShell22]

I'm under the impression that they've been raised Buddhist but that they may still observe certain holidays. In The Simpsons episode "She of Little Faith" Lisa turns Buddhist and believes that because of this she isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas with her family but finds out that Carl and Richard Gere also are Buddhists and also celebrate Christmas. So by that assumption, I believe that they practice Buddhism but still celebrate Christmas in their own way.

I always kind of thought that Bushido was like a religious code in the 2K3 series.

[RaphAndDonnie]

Considering there's the whole reincarnation origin in IDW I would guess they're Hindu but I could be completely wrong. I don't know about any of the cartoons or other comics though. Either that or Buddhism.

[blindturtle02]

Never thought about the reincarnation bit. I think I remember reading some comic summaries a while back. And Bubbly brought up a good point with Bushido. Certainly sounded similar to a religion in the 2k3 series. Leo brought it up constantly and applied it to more than one dilemma. Although you could take what I know of Bushido etc, write it down on a napkin, and still have room to write a love letter. haha

[Candy Kappa]

Bushido is not a religion, it's basically chivalry, a way for samurai to behave and what morals to have.

And celebrating during winter time isn't a Christian thing only, it's an much older tradition then that. And don't forget that the traditional Christmas is still extremely filled with previous winter celebrations several church authorities have through the ages tried to stop the Christmas time celebrations cause they deemed it too pagan. "Christmas" is just the new name for what used to be other names, such as Jul/Yule. Like Easter still having the mane it had after the goddess that originally had the celebration and is the actual deity chickens, eggs and bunnies are tied to, since Eoster is a fertility goddess.

[Blossombrooks]

The origins of Bushido draw from Buddhism and Shinto as I understand it so while it isn't a religion in itself the practice pays homage to the two.

I too always assumed they were Buddhist, mainly because of Splinter and Leonardo's portrayal. They live a fairly minimalist lifestyle in comparison to the others and reflect inwardly a lot more. Throughout each incarnation though the religious connections are loose at best and very open to interpretation. Even the reincarnation doesn't really give any conclusive proof, if they were practicing Buddhists then it doesn't mean they are now.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by blindturtle02

Never thought about the reincarnation bit. I think I remember reading some comic summaries a while back. And Bubbly brought up a good point with Bushido. Certainly sounded similar to a religion in the 2k3 series. Leo brought it up constantly and applied it to more than one dilemma. Although you could take what I know of Bushido etc, write it down on a napkin, and still have room to write a love letter. haha

Bushido isn't really a religion, it's an ideology though. The Way of the Warrior.

I think if anything that Splinter as a human was a shintoist while the IDW splinter was Zen Buddhist as he does pray to the Buddha to grant him and his family justice.

As for the Turtles, they are largely Atheistic. I'm sure Splinter may have lead them in some practices, but the only one who got into it was Leo.

[turtlefanforever]

We got a nice little conversation going here. I'd have to agree with the initial thought of Buddhism. And the Simpsons episode is interesting and I really lean toward that but I try to leave religion out of it, considering it was a family show. Not like a Charlie Brown where they openly talk about religion.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Bushido is not a religion, it's basically chivalry, a way for samurai to behave and what morals to have.

And celebrating during winter time isn't a Christian thing only, it's an much older tradition then that. And don't forget that the traditional Christmas is still extremely filled with previous winter celebrations several church authorities have through the ages tried to stop the Christmas time celebrations cause they deemed it too pagan. "Christmas" is just the new name for what used to be other names, such as Jul/Yule. Like Easter still having the name it had after the goddess that originally had the celebration and is the actual deity chickens, eggs and bunnies are tied to, since Eoster is a fertility goddess.

Bushido is more than just "chivalry", though, it's an entire way of living and conduct that encompasses not only conduct on the battlefield, but in one's home as well.

As for Christmas being part of earlier and older traditions, this is true. Long before the Christian holiday we all know, there was Saturnalia (Rome) Solstice Eve(Celtic) and Yule (Norse). All are roughtly similar to Christmas as we know it today, with some of the ancient traditions still surviving to this day- the mistletoe, Yule log, feasting, etc.

Originally Posted by Blossombrooks

The origins of Bushido draw from Buddhism and Shinto as I understand it so while it isn't a religion in itself the practice pays homage to the two.

I too always assumed they were Buddhist, mainly because of Splinter and Leonardo's portrayal. They live a fairly minimalist lifestyle in comparison to the others and reflect inwardly a lot more. Throughout each incarnation though the religious connections are loose at best and very open to interpretation. Even the reincarnation doesn't really give any conclusive proof, if they were practicing Buddhists then it doesn't mean they are now.

You are quite right in the origins of Bushido, it does indeed draw heavily from both of those belief systems. As I understand it, most of Japan, while perhaps not actively practicing, still acknowledge or at least pay lip service to one or the other, or even both. And of course, Japan being heavy on adherence to tradition, still celebrates many of the festivals and holy days of both, as well.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Honestly, most religions are human centric, I highly doubt the turtles would embrace a religion having some primates as the superior species as them selves aren't human (save IDW). Zen Budddism or Shinto would be The most commonsense ones seeing Splinter is human or rat, always Japanese. Being a comics property, spirits and extra dimensional beings can be a reality, so generic spiritualism isn't odd either, seeing astral projection and other supernatural elements can be real in comics.

Not sure what religions being human-centric has to do with anything. Since they seem to embrace so much of human life and culture already, why wouldn't they adopt some of their spiritual beliefs as well? I recall an issue in Mirage where Donnie was acting in the role of a shaman of some sort, for the spirits of extinct reptiles long gone. It seems to me that they would at least search for the "meaning" of who and what they are from a spiritual perspective. The question of "why are we here" is universal, it's not something that only humans would think of.

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

I'm under the impression that they've been raised Buddhist but that they may still observe certain holidays. In The Simpsons episode "She of Little Faith" Lisa turns Buddhist and believes that because of this she isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas with her family but finds out that Carl and Richard Gere also are Buddhists and also celebrate Christmas. So by that assumption, I believe that they practice Buddhism but still celebrate Christmas in their own way.

I always kind of thought that Bushido was like a religious code in the 2K3 series.

That's an interesting point. I suppose it's possible that they practice both, perhaps as a way for Splinter to allow them to choose their own path in what they believe. I've always thought they would probably be more open to the idea of learning a little from many different faiths, to find their own answers to spiritual questions. Since, as Candy Kappa put it, most religions don't have anything close to a situation or code that truly fits them. Maybe they are agnostic?

Originally Posted by RaphAndDonnie

Considering there's the whole reincarnation origin in IDW I would guess they're Hindu but I could be completely wrong. I don't know about any of the cartoons or other comics though. Either that or Buddhism.

Hindu isn't the only religion that embraces or espouses reincarnation- it's just the most well-known. Even the ancient Celts had a "Summerland", where souls go between lives to learn from what they have experienced, and wait to be reborn. In fact, many of what are considered to be "pagan" or primitive cultures had similar beliefs, and some still do, with things like ancestor worship(Shinto) past lives (pick one) and magic or spirit-communication Wicca, Shamanism).

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Bhuddismisn't a religion, but a philosophy- though that line can blur in east asian cultures, as far as western definitions of the term. And Bhuddism believes in reincartation as well. Remeber it came out of india orginally, and is originally based on some Hindu ideas and philosophies.

Originally Posted by turtlefanforever

Quote or example?

I said it's suggested, not confirmed. From IDW TMNT #5;

"..he prayed to Buddha, to all the powers of the universe..."

Yoshi prayed he and his sons would be reunited, and he would get his revenge on Saki (a very un-Buddhist concept, but still) I'd guess the fact his prayer was sort of answered, he might have stuck with his philosophy?

[pannoni1]

Only Splinter and perhaps Leonardo seem to be truly a Zen Buddhist, and its easy to see through their meditations, including in the episode "Enter: The Fly" where Splinter opens just one eye, meaning that he was in his Zen when interrupted. Donatello may be atheist and only enjoying holidays like Christmas/Easter secularly, while Michelangelo/Raphael may be simple "live and let live" people with no real religious affiliation, but not anti-religion that perhaps Donatello may be. Note that non of the religious aspects of such holidays outside of Zen Buddhism have ever been mentioned in TMNT history, and of course being a secular art should try to avoid explicit religious references to appeal to the masses.

[turtlefanforever]

But do we really need religion in this franchise? I don't think it really has a place for it in here. It's not like a Charlie Brown or anything like that

[BubblyShell22]

I don't think Don is anti-religion and probably respects the beliefs of others since I'm sure Splinter taught him to do that. I'm sure he's just more of a scientific mind about certain things.

No we don't NEED a religion in this franchise, but it's fun to speculate about what their beliefs would be if they had any.

[plastroncafe]

Considering the intersection of many martial arts with philosophy and religion, I think expecting the turtles to be an Atheist Space is more than a little short sighted.