Are Leo and Donnie essentially the same person?

[victory_angel]

I should probably word the title of this better, but I digress. I've been trying to get my pseudo-brother interested in the ninja turtles show. He had grown up without much interest in the show because it was one of several shows banned in his house hold given how inane the OT incarnation could get.

And even now he still can't quite get into the Nick Series, though he does enjoy it. He actually told me he has trouble telling Leo and Donnie apart because they are too much alike. And I can make up reason about how they differ until my face is about as blue as the shirt i'm wearing right now. But when I actually stop to think about it...maybe that is sort of their point.

In other posts I have pointed out that the two of them are like two halves of the same whole. This doesn't mean they can't function independently of each other as it is quite obvious that they can. But they are at their best when they are together and they have ways of understanding each other that is isn't shown with the others. For example Donnie has shown signs he's able to read Leo in ways that Raph and Mikey can't. Such as in "parasitica" Donnie is the first one who really begins to notice something is seriously wrong with Leo, but he quite place just what it is. As seen in this exchange.

Donnie: Fascinating...

{Holds scalpel towards wasp egg}

Leo: STOP! What are you doing?

Donnie: Dissecting it

{Leo pushes Donnie away}

Leo: ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is the only egg we have, we need to learn how it develops.

Donnie: Well then...I guess I'll just keep staring at it.

Leo: Good idea... {Points to where Raph and Mikey are standing} From over there.

{Donnie eyes Leo as if sensing something was wrong. Sidles away one long step and smirks. Leo glares at Donnie causing the purple masked Turtle to back up so he's standing with Raph and Mikey. Satisfied Leo goes back to guarding the egg.}

Donnie: Well I think I will do...'something' in the other room. Raph, Mikey, care to join me.

Mikey: Not unless you get more specific.

Donnie: {irritated} Come on!

{Donnie drags Mikey out of the lab by the mask tails.}


And in Showdown when Leo was about to sacrifice himself for the first time in the episode. Mikey's reaction could be views as "What's going on?" Raph's is "He can't be serious, please tell me he's not serious."
But Donnie was more like "It can't come to this, not yet."

[Warhorse]

Is this another one of your "let's point out how great Leo and Donny are and how useless Raph is" posts? It's getting tiring. I never seen anyone try and go out of their way to try and make Raph like this horrible person to prop up Leo and Donny on some ridiculously high pedestal.

[IndigoErth]

I don't find them that much the same, though if you divided all of them up on some personality spectrum, between the more wild, exuberant ones and those who are more restrained and contemplative, Leo and Donnie are obviously on the same end opposite their other brothers with the counter personalities.

I imagine someone who wasn't allowed to grow up with them (how sad...) just doesn't have the feel for the characters that long time fans have. Do the rest of us also have an ingrained idea of how the characters are "supposed" to be, no matter if certain characteristics come out in a particular series and just bring it in on our own? Maybe.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Is this another one of your "let's point out how great Leo and Donny are and how useless Raph is" posts? It's getting tiring. I never seen anyone try and go out of their way to try and make Raph like this horrible person to prop up Leo and Donny on some ridiculously high pedestal.

I don't see how you even made that interpretation. The thread was made because of how victory-angel's friend perceived Leo and Donny. How and where exactly is Raph being made to look bad? I'm just not seeing it. And pointing out flaws in a character isn't the same as bashing it. victory_angel has even pointed out flaws with Leo and Donnie. A blind follower of a character wouldn't do that.

[victory_angel]

Both Raph and Mikey are fairly independent of each other. Raph being the powerhouse and Mikey being the wild card of the group. And that is fine because that suits their personality.

Each of the Turtles have their own strengths to offer the team.
Such as Raph is physically stronger then say someone like Donnie.
But Donnie is stronger then Raph in other ways, such as his sense of compassion and patience.
And that in turn balances them out

Leo is at this point in time is a stronger leader then Mikey.
But Mikey has a stronger sense of being open to new ideas and ways of doing things rather then relying on tradition alone.

Raph is the rock of the team. He is the protector and when things are going down, he is one who remains sensible through it all and keeps the brothers from panicking. When one of his brothers goes down in battle, he is one of the first ones there to protect and defend that brother. And he is a caring person who is there for his brothers when it really matters.

His down side however is sometimes he lets his temper and anger control him, and occasionally he would say or do some insensitive stuff towards his brothers. And he does have his moments where he does come across as a bully.

I do openly admit that Raph is not my favorite character of the group. I don't hate his character, and I know siblings do give each other a hard time. But characters who are bullies or who are prone to being bullies are a sore spot with me.


Mikey is the heart of the team and he reminds everyone even in the darkest moments that light still does exist and as long as they remain together they would be able to face anything. He also has a way of seeing things in others that people such as his brothers would tend to ignore

His down sides is that he has a wild imagination which makes it hard to take him seriously at times. Also it has been stated that he has more raw talent then his older brothers combined, but he can't reach is full potential because he doesn't focus.

With Leo and Don, yes it is easy to confuse the two of them at times. Since they are both quiet and they have been shown to dress alike at times. For example they wore similar styles in Next mutation, they both have a shoulder strap going over their right shoulder to hold their weapons strapped across their backs. Even the recent movie Donnie was wearing his own version of the pseudo-Japanese styled armor that Leo is wearing.

And yes the fact they are quiet and are the planners of the group is also a similarity. But that's where there the similarities end.

In battle there are moments where Leo and Donnie to carry each other such as the moments where they fight in tandem or one offers a Plan B when Plan A doesn't go as planned. And in many cases Donnie would be one of the first of the group to follow Leo's lead.

But unlike Raph or Mikey there is a heavy reliance between the two of them based on trust. This is both a good thing and bad thing.

Good because Leo is able to combine his skills in tactics with Donnie's strategic approaches. And the two have ways of approaching things in a compromise of tradition and innovation.

And bad because with the way they do approach things are not always met collaboratively. Leo feels that tradition is the only way to do things, so in many cases innovative approaches he doesn't see as useful or unable to fit the mold for ninjitsu.

Donnie in the mean time see's innovation as a trump to tradition, and at times will rely more on technology then on the traditional skills he has been taught.

And lately that reliance based on trust has been starting to unravel. A good leader listen and trusts his followers and the abilities of his followers to help him bring the group out of danger. However Leo off and on through out the series will do things he wants to do with little trust or consideration for his brothers views or abilities.

Donnie on the other hand is loyal to a fault but that loyalty comes with a price. If he feels you are someone he can no longer trust, he will not see any reason to follow you.

[Warhorse]

I wonder though, it seems to me, Leo and Donny are the level headed ones while Raph and Mikey, not so much. At the same time, I've also noticed, Splinter seems to be more kinder to Leo and Donny than to Raph and Mikey. I think he's even, more or less, called Mikey dumb. And he seems to take pleasure in hurting Raph physically. Could the reasoning behind Raph and Mikey be due to how Splinter treats them compared to the more calmer brothers?

I heard the creators are going to go into detail on how Raph got the crack in his plastron, perhaps we will get some info about why he is the way he is when that episdoe airs.

[IndigoErth]

I would hope that Splinter, not so much in the sense of calling Mikey dumb or meaning to, simply recognizes that each of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Even if his flightiness does not allow him to portray himself in an overly intelligent manner, he makes up for it with other strengths.

I dunno about preferential treatment, but in terms of raising them and trying to teach and guide them, Raph and Mikey would no doubt be the kind of kids who are pulling harder on the reins and perhaps need a heavier hand at times to keep them reined in for their own good and help them grow. Though I could agree that Nick's Splinter seems a little too heavy handed at times, esp when he likes to take a swipe at them with his stick and knock all of them across the room.

[ssjup81]

I said something regarding Raph and Mikey in another thread. Those two are the wild ones compared to the generally calm and reserved Leo and Donnie.

Leo is disciplined, Mikey is the opposite. He's a wild card.
Donnie is the calm, patient one (usually), Raph is the hot tempered one.

I could see Splinter staying on their cases as opposed to Leo or Donny's. This also why I could see Splinter appointing someone like Donny second-in-command.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I said something regarding Raph and Mikey in another thread. Those two are the wild ones compared to the generally calm and reserved Leo and Donnie.

Leo is disciplined, Mikey is the opposite. He's a wild card.
Donnie is the calm, patient one (usually), Raph is the hot tempered one.

I could see Splinter staying on their cases as opposed to Leo or Donny's. This also why I could see Splinter appointing someone like Donny second-in-command.

Now, could Splinter appointing Donny over Raph, who believes he should have been leader of the group and has said so to Splinter himself, might become even more pissed off? It just seems to me, when it comes to keeping the gang together, Raph in particular seems to be the one doing that, not Donny, or Leo for that matter. So, it might just spawn a more angrier Raph than we have ever seen before with Donny becoming leader. But perhaps even worse, he learns to not vent his anger on his brother, but maybe his Master?

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Now, could Splinter appointing Donny over Raph, who believes he should have been leader of the group and has said so to Splinter himself, might become even more pissed off? It just seems to me, when it comes to keeping the gang together, Raph in particular seems to be the one doing that, not Donny, or Leo for that matter. So, it might just spawn a more angrier Raph than we have ever seen before with Donny becoming leader. But perhaps even worse, he learns to not vent his anger on his brother, but maybe his Master?

That also highly depends if Splinter is with them as we don't know if Splinter is able to leave the city with his sons. Perhaps when Leo separates from the group Mikey points out to Donnie it looks like he's the one in charge now. So when they meet up with Raph, Raph thinks he needs to be leader but instead learns Donnie is the one leading the group in Leo's absence. And he's okay with that but then when Leo is brutally injured and Raph learns that the reason left was because Donnie and Leo got into a dispute.

And yes, Raph may feel anger about it at first, but I think he actually might catch on that in the current situation and Donnie could be as effective a leader as Leo. But I don't think he will vent his anger at his brothers, I think he'd catch on that Donnie is feeling stressed out by all that has happened and maybe help take some of the weight off of Donnie's shoulders.

I really do hope that there is a moment where Raph has a heart to heart moment with Donnie.

[Warhorse]

Yeah, it would be nice to see a heart to heart with Raph and Donny. If April does finally run to Casey, leaving poor Donnie in the dust, I just hope Raphael starts to show some compassion and not rub it in his face. Maybe even offer Donnie a shoulder to lean on. This is something Raph is probably going to have to tread lightly on, because it's something that is involving his brother and his best friend, so he can't exactly turn a cold shoulder on either of them.

But, I still think Irma is going to come along, be attracted to Donnie's brain, and then April is going to get all jealous, so this circle is going to continue. It's causing a lot of traffic for the show, so the creators are not going to quit this cold turkey just because a few people are irked by it.

[victory_angel]

I think Irma might flirt with Donnie because he's someone who can understand her. I don't know about April running to Casey, because that story board April's statement of "You're my mutant." Does suggest she does like Donnie back.

But anything can still happen.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I think Irma might flirt with Donnie because he's someone who can understand her. I don't know about April running to Casey, because that story board April's statement of "You're my mutant." Does suggest she does like Donnie back.

But anything can still happen.

I'm just getting that info because there is going to be an episode where April's relationship is going to cause Donny's jealousy to grow more, and if he is indeed in that jealousy state, it might actually tick April off and cause her to lean more towards Casey, just to get away from Donny. Perhaps something happens finally so that storyboard does play out. Look, it's not some random coincidence that the creators are making April into a hybrid of some sort, they are doing that so they have that back door when they finally have April run to Donny.

[victory_angel]

As long as they don't pull something weird and say Casey and Irma are technically hybrid mutants too.

[Warhorse]

Irma's going to get mutated. I'm 99.9% sure it's going to happen.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

As long as they don't pull something weird and say Casey and Irma are technically hybrid mutants too.

Generation Mutant. Was a bad year for pregnant women.

I can't remember, is this Casey's mom still supposed to be around or not?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Generation Mutant. Was a bad year for pregnant women.

I can't remember, is this Casey's mom still supposed to be around or not?

I don't recall Casey mentioning anything about his mother, he just mentions his dad and little sister, so I am assuming mom is out of the picture. It seems moms are taboo in this show. April's mom gone, Karai's mom is gone, the Turtles sure as hell have no real mother figures to speak of, heck, even Leo's little tea time buddy seemed to only have a dad around.

[Luckyday]

Leo's a geek.
Donnie's a nerd.
Enough said.

[snake]

Does Leo Do Machines?





No.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by snake

Does Leo Do Machines?





No.

But, he does watch geeky stuff like the faux Star Trek, and he is a teacher's pet, which also can fall under the geeky stuff, so yeah, Leo is a geek. And there is nothing wrong with that, makes him even greater in my opinion that he is one.