Has the "it's for kids' mentality been holding TMNT back?

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

But there can creative ways of doing that without ever showing blood. The movie "Psycho" was able do it with out showing him stabbing the victim. I think if means having some scenes in a dark setting with little light, which brings a level of intensity or maybe you can make it like the Hunger Games in which making some of the scenes very fast pace. There are ways let Leonardo use his swords. There always has been since the dawn of time.

They just kinda choose to go with 'neither' in the cartoons.

I especially like the scenes where Leo and Raph (or all 4 turtles) are without their weapons... and seemingly defenseless.... and then the moment they get their swords and sais back.... they start kicking things.... As if they couldn't do those jumpkicks and such before. Does holding a sword somehow give your kicks more power?

But then again the notion that the turtles kinda/sorta rely on their weapons as some kind of superpower where they seem to lose the ability to fight if they lose them in some of the cartoons always bugged me. They're friggin martial arts fighters. They should be able to punch and kick their way out of things even if they are temporarily disarmed.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, I think the "talking animals" bit is a big part of it sadly, paired with assumptions of people who haven't given it a chance. But come on, once you 'know' them that's pretty easy to look past for the most part. At that point they just become big green people.

Heck, they're more like us and visa versa than they (or us) are to, say, the apes from Planet of the Apes. Those are talking animals.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Does holding a sword somehow give your kicks more power?

Uhhh... works as a helpful counterweight? lol


As for the blood... Come on, even Disney will show a little now and then.

[Luckyday]

I still think that it's more of the fact that they look like plush cartoon turtles rather then real looking turtles. I mean when it comes to the face.

[IndigoErth]

But then they might fall more into something like the Planet of the Apes category?

I mean for some it might help for realism and a more serious perspective if that's what would appeal to them, rather than being cute and cartoony, but I imagine it may well also lose much of the relateability and attachment to them.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Socially speaking it's an unfair stigma that people won't let go of, and if it's what society assumes and expects then it's probably what some are bound to keep aiming for. Though I assume the franchise itself would have the power to do whatever it damn well pleases for whoever they want to gear something toward.

Really it irks me every time I see that stated. I am perfectly happy to share with the younger generations, they will after all help in making sure the Turtles continue to exist, but any time I see "it's a kids thing/movie/whatever" I can't help but feel a bit territorial. No one is telling or insinuating to lifelong 60-year-old fans that Superman isn't for them anymore. ("Oh, the last Superman movie was stupid? Well its a kids thing, what do you expect? I just looked at it how my 6-year-old self would have and enjoyed it!") Hell, I don't know much about Superman, but as a "kids thing" TMNT certainly seems, to me, more brutal than Superman.

Turtles can't get no respect.

I just don't understand why the TMNT can't be treated like Batman, Avengers or Star Wars, where it's enjoyable for kids, and adults and that there is a consise story to be told all at the same time. Heck, true kids stuff like Toy Story, Shrek and Finding Nemo are good franchises for kids and adults both to love and watch without being dumbed down because of fear the kiddies can't get it.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

But then they might fall more into something like the Planet of the Apes category?

I mean for some it might help for realism and a more serious perspective if that's what would appeal to them, rather than being cute and cartoony, but I imagine it may well also lose much of the relateability and attachment to them.

Is that why 2014 turtles had so much add tchotchkes?

Because that wasn't necessary. I can relate to tall elvish blue cat people, if they have similar human emotions. They could have invested in the mo cap suits. Acting is what will make you believe that they are real people. Giving them more scenes of them being a real family with real issues and would have worked.

I'm sorry, I just saw concept art that was better then the finish movie version and just made me so mad.

Man the mo caps technology must have been reeeally shity. Like "Mars needs moms" level of shity that leads into a level of uncanny valley and that why there so much screen time on Megan Fox, which is just hilariously ironic given how dead eye her performance is.

[Hannurdock]

More time was spent on the logistics of this burp than the plot of this movie - Everything Wrong with TMNT in 14 mins

This is the problem.

I think, if a director did do a serious batman-style version of TMNT, it would be revolutionary and change the entire attitude to the turtles.

Problem is, those with the big bucks behind them are too scared to open that can of worms in case it doesn't work out.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

I guess when it comes down, you and I want TMNT to go in two completely different directions. You want to stand on it's own and I really want them to mix and interact with other characters.

Actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough but I'd have Zero problem if the TMNT were absorbed into the "mainstream" universe and crossed over and interacted with other characters. In fact, the fics I used to write had them heavily entrenched with the DCU, just sort of "behind the scenes" of what we had always seen; I was actually working on creating a series of stories in which they had actually been an integral part of the entire DCU mythology and every major event, just sort of "off-camera", because there's actually a ton of room to make that work if someone took care to do it properly. I wouldn't have any problem with them doing that.

It's just I also recognize most fans wouldn't care to see that because it probably would be done piss-poor, and that most would prefer TMNT be segregated from the "mainstream universe" in either DC or Marvel and never cross over with any super-heroes or anybody like that at all, and I think DC does a better job separating their Big characters from their niche ones. Like, there's a million characters in DC/Vertigo who have never even met Superman or Batman or anybody, it's like they have a Big Universe and a smaller, more intimate universe, all going on at the same time, and stuff doesn't need to mix or cross-over. They're just better at that than Marvel is, or used to be anyway.

Point being, they could run TMNT as entirely its own book OR mix it into the mainstream and either would be just fine. At Marvel, just the fact they live in New York would likely have them constantly tripping over other famous characters to the point of it becoming "TMNT, Guest-Starring (Blank)" every single month and it would be corny as hell. They'd also NEVER run it as a separate book from the Marvel U because they could never resist the urge to have Spider-Man and Wolverine show up. Subtlety is not something Marvel is good at. They'd just work better at DC if they HAD to be bought out by either.
----------------------------------------------

Also, this thread? Awesome. You guys are all awesome.

[Coola Yagami]

There's also the shared universe problem that since the tmnt don't have powers neither do their villains so there would be no reason the avengers or xmen wouldn't to able to take down the foot by now. They'd blow up the Technodrome before the turtles even heard it was invading.

I do wonder how the marvel universe would handle the existence of mutagen though.

[plastroncafe]

TMNT is already arguably IN the Marvel universe, given that their origin story is cribbed from Miller's run on "Daredevil."

Why wouldn't the Avengers defeat The Foot? For the same reason The Hand is still lurking about. As for Mutagen...it's what made Matt Murdock blind and gave him super senses to compensate.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Powder

See, this post right here is proof that it has in fact held back the property AND the fandom, because people who only go for the "kid stuff" have this ridiculous idea that Mirage is, & only liked for, the "fact" that it's EXTREME TO THE MAX ADULT CONTENT! BEER! BLOOD! CURSING! when the reality of it's adult nature is that it stems from depressing, cerebral, heady stuff that kids would not understand or be stimulated by. Besides that, the series has plenty of heartwarming, light-hearted, goofy, sci-fi, etc content. A catch-all, genre-wise. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss it when you have no idea what it's really about.

To say the OT is not a blemish on the original comics is not a matter of opinion. It IS a blemish. Is it enjoyable? Yes. Does it have it's own merits? Yes. Do I myself, as a Mirage "purist" like it? Yes. Do we owe a lot to it's existence? Absolutely. But has it done irreparable damage to the property in addition to the good stuff? You bet your ass. Why? Because they have been loud, vibrant, pizza eating dude-bros for 25 years, & people don't like change. They have known this, & only this, for the duration of their pop-culture sponging lives, & do not wish to humor anything else, & when the topic comes up in conversation, they say they're sick of everything getting a "dark reboot" despite the fact that such a version would be remaining true to their origins...

& I don't see where this presumed elitism is coming from, nobody is using this thread as means to say one version or another is the be-all end-all of turtles. God, your post is frustrating. & the most ironic part is that you say your favorite show is the 4kids series, & yet it's based on Mirage, the version that does nothing for you. Like, 70% of the stories are adaptations. Maybe you just don't like reading.

*SIGH* I mean no disrespect, Powder. nobody in this thread said anything like that. But I've seen a few posters on the boards here again and again pull the 'Mirage Elitism' card out and use it to the point of bullying any fans who didn't agree with them. Yes I know mirage isn't as dark as my exaggeration made it out to be, but also noticed I stood up and said the Mirage fans have the right to their stuff, too. My frustration on this topic extends above this thread, and the thread topic touched on that issue. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh.

[Leo656]

The problem with your exaggeration is just that a lot of people hold those views of Mirage etc. without actually having read any of it, they just go by what they hear. They hear about the contrast between the cartoons and how it's "dark" and "mature", and they interpret that as "violent" and whatnot, instead of taking its literal meaning, which is, "It's Just Not Written For Five-Year Olds".

EDIT: Sure is a lotta "We had a misunderstanding? Welp, I'm outta here" floating around lately.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I can understand that, and I do agree Mirage isn't as 'dark' and 'gritty' as most people make it out to be- I have read most of it, during my 'everything turtles' phase. I... just couldn't get into it. The characters, tone, and setting did nothing for me. Yet I really liked when many of those stories were redone for the 4kids series adaptation (but I don't like all of 4kids, either)

The mirage comics aren't bad, but I really don't like them, try as I might. I would say that, yes, the 'for the kids' label has hurt the mature side of the franchise, and I've previously agreed with the statement that the franchise should be split- one branch the dark 'mirage' elements- the 'ninja' turtles- and one with the pizza eating, rocksteady and bebop, mutants everywhere branch -the 'hero' turtles.

Also, I'm not totally against the 'dark' elements, I actually prefer a blending of the versions- IDW is my favorite version of the turtles of all, even above the OT,and there is a a great deal of Mirage influence there.

[Leo656]

For what it's worth, I don't really like them much either, or rather I like some of it a lot but it's super-overrated. I think there's some gems, a lot of filler, and taking Vol. 4 into account, some of it is just the most boring sh*t you'd never wanna read.

I totally get why people will take those Gems and put them over everything in the entire mythology, and can't really disagree, but there's still an overwhelming amount of it that runs the gamut from "crap" to "who-gives-a-f***?" Taken in its entirety, it's a C+. Some of it is A+, but the rest drags the average down.

That said, it wasn't pandering to the kiddies like most TMNT stuff does, so that's why people appreciate it so much, I think.

[plastroncafe]

Mirage : TMNT :: LotR : Fantasy.

It's what came first. It's what set the bar. It's important.
But it's hardly flawless. Even if we didn't know for a fact that they were flying by the seat of their pants the entire time, it's clearly evident in the work itself. Eastman even admitted that they weren't really sure what they were doing with the characters personality-wise until they started the on-going series on a recent podcast with Rob Paulsen.

[Luckyday]

The mirage universe to me is something that you can take a few interesting concepts and work them in your own adaptation of how you would TMNT to be.
It shouldn't really be treated like a creative bible to make everything exactly like it. Unless, it's Sons of the Silent Age.

Like one of the few interesting notations in there is Mikey is not the youngest brother. Raph is the youngest one. I want to see this food for thought of making Mikey act like an older brother because it goes against expectation that we had on this character for nearly three decades.

I but don't want a show turn into a straight adaption of the mirage.
Seriously, though Sons of the Silent Age has to be exactly the same as it was in the comic. I'm not joking.

[Cipher]

Yes and yes. Or, specifically, the idea that it can't be aimed at varying demographics the way at least other larger superhero franchises are.

Originally Posted by Powder

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

The mirage universe to me is something that you can take a few interesting concepts and work them in your own adaptation of how you would TMNT to be.
It shouldn't really be treated like a creative bible to make everything exactly like it. Unless, it's Sons of the Silent Age.

I don't think anyone's saying that. But I also don't think, and it looks like you agree, that anyone who's read them could come away saying things like "Sons of the Silent Age," "City at War," etc., aren't at the absolute pinnacle of stories these characters can be used for. And those, among the other A+ stories scattered throughout Mirage, are elements I'd love to see in other versions-- ones that kids-only takes wholly preclude.

Originally Posted by Leo656

That said, it wasn't pandering to the kiddies like most TMNT stuff does, so that's why people appreciate it so much, I think.

That, and you got the feeling that -- and this is also why the series as a whole is uneven, to be fair -- everyone was 100% behind what they were doing on a personal level. Whether it's the tongue-in-cheek verve of Eastman and Laird's early issues, opening up TMNT as an indie playground in the guest artist era or Tales, or (my favorite) the drive to tell emotionally resonant stories with the strange world they'd set up by the time Lawson starts scripting, it's something not even IDW has been able to capture, despite not being just "for kids." Even Volume 4, had someone taken over scripting duty from Laird, could, would and should have captured that energy.

I don't really go for dark for darkness' sake, but I'd really enjoy seeing that level of personal exploration to the material come back into the franchise. It's an adult approach in an entirely different way.

[Leo656]

I think I'd have settled for anybody writing Vol. 4 other than Pete.

"Well... I'm telling the story I want to tell... I'm not sure where it's going... or it it'll have an ending... I'm really not sure it's going to have any payoffs at all, really... but... stuff is happening... kind of... and there's plot threads... and... well... it's More Ninja Turtles... did I mention I really like my Segway? I didn't? Let me tell you allllllll about it, because in case you couldn't tell, I really don't want to talk about Ninja Turtles anymore and I only do it because people keep pestering me..."

I remember people here screaming we should be "grateful" because at least we were getting more TMNT product, even when that product was awful. I've been getting a real feeling of deja-vu this year, for reasons I'm sure I don't have to explain.

[plastroncafe]

In a recent interview Eastman mentioned just how much like Donatello Laird is in personality,...or is that the other way around.... and so now everything Don does is painted with a Laird-shaped brush.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I think I'd have settled for anybody writing Vol. 4 other than Pete.

"Well... I'm telling the story I want to tell... I'm not sure where it's going... or it it'll have an ending... I'm really not sure it's going to have any payoffs at all, really... but... stuff is happening... kind of... and there's plot threads... and... well... it's More Ninja Turtles... did I mention I really like my Segway? I didn't? Let me tell you allllllll about it, because in case you couldn't tell, I really don't want to talk about Ninja Turtles anymore and I only do it because people keep pestering me..."

We're getting a little off-topic now, but I'd have been A-OK with Laird plotting Volume 4; he had (has?) some great ideas, and I even dug its open-ended sense of exploration, along with whatever niggling thoughts of mortality were running alongside its plots.

But he's not a dialogue-writer. Or, by training, a storyteller. All he really needed was someone else scripting the dialogue and maybe tightening up the storytelling, reining in some of his his digressions. Lawson and Murphy were right there. Oh well.