DC Introduce "All New Batman" In June

[Leo656]

Chromium. Chromium covers need to come back in a big, big way.

And those tear-out "trading cards" that you're "not supposed" to tear out because it ruins the "collectible" value.

We already have clumsy retcons, crummy new costumes, "edgier" personas, and Rob Liefeld. If we're gonna dredge up every awful thing that comics spent 20 years trying to bury and get away from, we need to commit to it 110%.

[CyberCubed]

Don't forget those "cut-out" posters comics would have, but if you tore them out you would lose one of the story pages because the idiots printed them on the other side of the page.

When I was a teenager I had posters all over my bedroom, I was always sad to tear it out of my comics though.

[Leo656]

What books were you readin'? DC and NOW comics, which were my favorites as a kid, always made sure that the "back side" of the poster/pin-ups were always something unimportant. Like when DC did the "Four Supermen" gimmick when he came back from the dead, each of the posters just had a solid black background with the character's name in giant white block letters on the reverse side. Or in the Real Ghostbusters comics, every issue had a pin-up, but the flip side was always just junk like fan-art by 5-year olds or little kids doing cosplay.

Also: Anyone remember NOW comics? I used to collect that entire line. Good stuff.

[snake]

I want Glow In The Dark covers back.

[Leo656]

I wonder how much my mint polybagged collectible copy of Radioactive Man #1 with the glow-in-the-dark cover is worth now!

I think I saw a stack of 5 or 6 of 'em in a dollar bin a few months ago.

Meanwhile, when my Dad passed away I inherited his comic collection, which is full of that kind of stuff. There's a big stack of Spawn #1s and stuff. I'm thinking of buying a handful more and making a little fort.

[Slade]

Originally Posted by snake

I want Glow In The Dark covers back.

You know, sometimes, I wonder how old you really are.

[Leo656]

We have no solid proof he's 13. We also have no solid proof that he does NOT have access to a time machine, along with an obsession with early-90s junk culture.

So, simply put, there's a lot we don't know.

[CyberCubed]

I always wondered what would happen if you call the phone lines of ancient comic books printed on the advertisement pages from the 80's and 90's and see if the phone connection still exists.

[Leo656]

When I was like 5 I used to try and fill out the old subscription cards and order forms and stuff. I really wanted that effin' submarine.

[CyberCubed]

I actually didn't collect many comics as a kid. First of all I was only like 10 years old in 1995 so the few comics I got were mostly TMNT Archie Adventures at that time.

I did try to get into DC/Marvel during the early 2000's but then stopped rather quickly when I realized there was no way in hell I could follow the continuity going on at the time or follow 100 different comic titles at the same time. There were like what...10 different Batman books going on at the same time? The hell with that. Same for a lot of X-men and Marvel stuff.

Nowadays I just prefer to read summaries online just to keep up with what's going on. I mean what's the point really? Comics are designed to run forever, everyone knows 5-10 years from now there will be yet another reboot that starts all over again rendering everything non-canon, and so on and so forth.

I honestly feel sorry for Star Wars fans who followed the Dark Horse comics since the 90's up till 2014 and then had the whole Expanded Universe thrown out the window just to start all over again.

[Leo656]

It's not like they can't still read them and, in their head, "pretend" that it's still "canon". That whole thing is stupid. "It doesn't 'count' anymore." IT'S ALL FAKE, none of it "counted" to begin with. You don't need an editor to grant you "permission" to read or enjoy a fictional story. If someone who reads "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" and enjoys it prefers to think of that as "canon" to the Star Wars universe, then to them, it is, no matter what the movies do to "contradict" it. Lots of people choose to pretend Han still shot first, and more power to them. It's fake. Take what you like and ignore the rest. Like how I am with DC right now. To me, the "real" DCU is the one that took place from 1986 to 2011, and everything else before/after is just parallel universes. That's how I choose to enjoy the material.

For another example: you think I look at April O'Neil as a doodle brought to life by a magical crystal, just because the creator said so in the "official" book, thus it's "canon"? Hell no, that's plain stupid, and in my "canon" it never happened, no matter what Laird said. That's how people are supposed to take this stuff. Not, "Oh, no, they retconned it, I better throw out my collection". None of it matters. The stories you like "happened", and the ones you don't like, didn't.

And following "continuity" isn't at all difficult, just expensive. I can buy the "I can't buy that many books" argument but not the "It's all too complicated to understand" argument. Not wanting to invest the money or time commitment, sure. But comics are not complicated. Right before Infinite Crisis I was picking up just about everything DC put out except for maybe 7-8 books. That was pretty much the height of all the books being connected and things causing huge waves across the entire line. It wasn't at all complicated, nor was it necessary to do in order to "get" Infinite Crisis. The whole thing just plays out better if you DO do that, but you don't have to, and it's not complicated to understand either way.

Sorry, I just never understood how people can say, "I don't understand comics" as a defense for not reading them. Like they're obtuse. The constantly refer to their own backstory; I'unno how anyone could ever claim confusion.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I actually didn't collect many comics as a kid. First of all I was only like 10 years old in 1995 so the few comics I got were mostly TMNT Archie Adventures at that time.

I did try to get into DC/Marvel during the early 2000's but then stopped rather quickly when I realized there was no way in hell I could follow the continuity going on at the time or follow 100 different comic titles at the same time. There were like what...10 different Batman books going on at the same time? The hell with that. Same for a lot of X-men and Marvel stuff.

Nowadays I just prefer to read summaries online just to keep up with what's going on. I mean what's the point really? Comics are designed to run forever, everyone knows 5-10 years from now there will be yet another reboot that starts all over again rendering everything non-canon, and so on and so forth.

I honestly feel sorry for Star Wars fans who followed the Dark Horse comics since the 90's up till 2014 and then had the whole Expanded Universe thrown out the window just to start all over again.

You and me, both, CyberCubed... I owe my current Batman knowledge to FHIZ over at GothamSpoilers and the occasional trade paperback I borrow from my libraries.

It's not a matter of not understanding comics; I simply don't want to invest in a business model that exists only to sustain its financial lifespan rather than, first and foremost, focus on telling good stories.

That's not to say that there aren't some good comics out there; Scott Snyder has done some pretty amazing work, and the Flash art is incredible, too. But knowing that so many editorial decisions neuter writers' decisions and directions, constantly hobbling a smaller comic's progression of story or character simply to cash in and tie in to larger "event" crossovers... I just find it irritating and insulting.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

It's not a matter of not understanding comics; I simply don't want to invest in a business model that exists only to sustain its financial lifespan rather than, first and foremost, focus on telling good stories.

That's silly. You "can't" watch cartoon shows or movies either, then.

Literally nothing except fanfic is "telling stories for stories' sake". Everything else is about selling product and promoting a brand.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's silly. You "can't" watch cartoon shows or movies either, then.

Literally nothing except fanfic is "telling stories for stories' sake". Everything else is about selling product and promoting a brand.

You misunderstand my intent; everything is absolutely about selling a product. But how many creative compromises are you willing to make to sell more of your product?

Compare the Batman TAS product that I assume a good number of us grew up with to the current DC comic lineup. How many times did the New 52 Nightwing have a promising direction and intent (e.g. Chicago or Haly's Circus) only to be preempted by the events of the current big crossover? Whereas Batman TAS (which sold tons of coloring books and action figures) was able to build its own definitive continuity and universe while crossing over with limited impact on its own continuity (Supergirl or Superman, or Justice League).

I understand I'm in a very tiny minority in not enjoying or supporting modern comics produced by DC or Marvel. I love their characters and stories, but in my personal experience, the comics make better material for adaptation than stories themselves.

[Leo656]

Can't really disagree with that, but I found the "telling good stories first and foremost" part kind of odd. That's completely never been anyone's motivation to begin with in any medium, from comics to movies to TV. Commercial art is business. Nobody cares about telling stories. I just found that comment a bit strange, is all.

The only problem with the rest of your logic is, the very best stories from the comics cannot and will not ever be adapted properly into other media, and even the very best stuff in other media can't come close to being as good or as deep as it was originally portrayed. So, it's fine if people don't read comics and prefer to follow the characters through other media, BUT, they'll never get to see the very best stuff from those characters, either, unless they go back to the source material. Granted, that's what trades are for nowadays, but the point still stands, the Very Best stories are always in the comics, not the cartoon or movie translations. Those versions may be simpler to get into, follow, and tell more linear stories, but they're by definition a watered-down version of the original.

You're not entirely wrong, though. And I wouldn't say you're in the minority; seems MOST people are pretty hip to the fact that DC and Marvel are just shoveling out trash nowadays to recoup the losses from stagnant sales. They never should have gone past $2.50 an issue; absolutely nothing they ever did again was going to fix that mistake. You cannot in this day and age, in this economy, under any circumstances, justify paying $3 or more for 20 pages of paper, staples, and ink. Even "respected" magazines that have been running for decades are going under. Even Playboy magazine is struggling to stay in business. So who can justify the exorbitant expense that has become collecting comic books? They killed the business by making it impossible for anyone to afford it, and now they're trying to make up their losses by promoting Big Event after Big Event. It's awful. Don't get me wrong, the business side of comics is complete and utter trash. But it wasn't always that bad. Wasn't always great, but it was never as bad as it is right now.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Can't really disagree with that, but I found the "telling good stories first and foremost" part kind of odd. That's completely never been anyone's motivation to begin with in any medium, from comics to movies to TV. Commercial art is business. Nobody cares about telling stories. I just found that comment a bit strange, is all.

The only problem with the rest of your logic is, the very best stories from the comics cannot and will not ever be adapted properly into other media, and even the very best stuff in other media can't come close to being as good or as deep as it was originally portrayed. So, it's fine if people don't read comics and prefer to follow the characters through other media, BUT, they'll never get to see the very best stuff from those characters, either, unless they go back to the source material. Granted, that's what trades are for nowadays, but the point still stands, the Very Best stories are always in the comics, not the cartoon or movie translations. Those versions may be simpler to get into, follow, and tell more linear stories, but they're by definition a watered-down version of the original.

You're not entirely wrong, though. And I wouldn't say you're in the minority; seems MOST people are pretty hip to the fact that DC and Marvel are just shoveling out trash nowadays to recoup the losses from stagnant sales. They never should have gone past $2.50 an issue; absolutely nothing they ever did again was going to fix that mistake. You cannot in this day and age, in this economy, under any circumstances, justify paying $3 or more for 20 pages of paper, staples, and ink. Even "respected" magazines that have been running for decades are going under. Even Playboy magazine is struggling to stay in business. So who can justify the exorbitant expense that has become collecting comic books? They killed the business by making it impossible for anyone to afford it, and now they're trying to make up their losses by promoting Big Event after Big Event. It's awful. Don't get me wrong, the business side of comics is complete and utter trash. But it wasn't always that bad. Wasn't always great, but it was never as bad as it is right now.

You're wrong, Leo; writers care about telling good stories first and foremost. And that's why they don't run everything; they have to be reined in at times to make sure they don't completely overlook the financial and marketing aspects of the business. But unfortunately, it seems that most individual writers are having less and less authority to follow their own creative intent in mainstream comics.

I have to agree with you, though; the best forms of these stories are to be found in the comics. Case in point? Iron Man 3 and the Mandarin. Or Talia al Ghul and The Dark Knight Trilogy. And to date, Jason Todd has only ever appeared in one adaptation.

The adaptations (film and TV) are supposed to be jumping-on points to reading the comics... but unfortunately, these days the comics leave much to be desired and a lot of people, of whom I can speak only for myself, have no interest in jumping on.

[Leo656]

True story.

And yeah, I guess to some degree the writers DO care, but it's also a little naive to assume that the writers aren't 110% in line with these cross-over and "event" types stories. Maybe they get annoyed when one of them disrupts their own ongoing work, BUT, these guys got into writing comics because they wanted to write those cross-overs and "events". They grew up reading comics and playing with action figures and as grown-ups they want to get paid to do the exact same thing. Yes, "telling stories" with the characters is of importance, BUT, to some degree, they're all still just kids playing with action figures. So, they want to do those kinds of stories AND get paid well for it. And that's great. We all know that already.

I just have kind of a hair trigger when anyone implies that anyone working in a commercial industry, like comics or movies or music, is doing it purely or even MOSTLY for love or art or "love of art". When you're doing it for free, it's a passion; when you do it for money, it's a business. Just sayin'.

But yeah, I agree the writers care at least much more than their "handlers" do about whether or not the stories are any good. BUT, as long as they get paid, I'm sure 99% of them just shrug and roll with it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

True story.

And yeah, I guess to some degree the writers DO care, but it's also a little naive to assume that the writers aren't 110% in line with these cross-over and "event" types stories. Maybe they get annoyed when one of them disrupts their own ongoing work, BUT, these guys got into writing comics because they wanted to write those cross-overs and "events". They grew up reading comics and playing with action figures and as grown-ups they want to get paid to do the exact same thing. Yes, "telling stories" with the characters is of importance, BUT, to some degree, they're all still just kids playing with action figures. So, they want to do those kinds of stories AND get paid well for it. And that's great. We all know that already.

I just have kind of a hair trigger when anyone implies that anyone working in a commercial industry, like comics or movies or music, is doing it purely or even MOSTLY for love or art or "love of art". When you're doing it for free, it's a passion; when you do it for money, it's a business. Just sayin'.

But yeah, I agree the writers care at least much more than their "handlers" do about whether or not the stories are any good. BUT, as long as they get paid, I'm sure 99% of them just shrug and roll with it.

I'd like to think you're a little jaded with that 99%. Or maybe I'm just overly bright-eyed and optimistic, wanting to think the best of those whose ranks I someday want to join.

[Leo656]

Me? Jaded? Naaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh, maaaaaaan....

I'unno, I've been fortunate enough to have met and shot the sh*t with a little of everyone. People who made it to "the top" of their field in just about everything... wrestling, comics, movies, music... at some point, it always becomes Just A Job. Even at regular jobs; like, so many people I know became personal trainers to help get the world in better shape... then you realize "The World" is a shiftless blob that doesn't WANT to get in better shape if it means giving up Taco Bell and Coca-Cola, so you kind of just start cashing the check and forget about "saving" people who don't really want the help.

So, yeah, I just kind of look at how people are in general. You can both love something and do it for money, but a person can't deny that once you DO take money for it, it's no longer something you do JUST because you care about it. And I truly don't believe anyone would go back to doing something for free once they *have* been paid for it, thus, the money factor trumps the "passion" factor in importance.

I know that was my case. As a kid, I really wanted to work in comics. Then I found out what they got paid and was like, "Ehhh, nah". But I grew up poor, so I was always kind of averse to entering "risky" careers like comics in the first place. Also, I really only ever wanted to write Superman and Batman and stuff like that, and when I realized that's kind of a "closed party" and they don't really let too many people do that ever, I kind of lost interest. One of the writers I met back then was like, "Statistically, you'd really be more likely to spend years working on Barbie or something like that," and while I understand "paying dues" and whatnot, doing a ton of junk just to say "I wrote comics" wasn't ever something that interested me. Basically, the business as a whole just seemed like something that didn't seem as much fun as the idea of it, so I just shifted interests. Keep in mind I was like, 12. But I definitely had that idea for a few years beforehand.

I almost did something small for an indy comic a long time ago but they ended up going under. We got as far as exchanging emails about ideas, and that was it. Honestly, the way the business is at the moment, I'm surprised anyone really wants to do it, still. All you ever hear about is how miserable everyone is, at least at the Big Two.

[ZariusTwo]

What killed my dream of wrting for Marvel and DC was the fact eventually somebody would just come over and retcon my work and trample all over the values I put into a character, or, worse, instruct me to write a story that would do the exact opposite of all my world building.