Do Humans become Animals themselves after contact with Mutagen and Animals?

[Metalwolf]

In another thread on this forum (Bebop and Rocksteady Pre-mutation) got me thinking after IndigoEarth mentioned something about those two being Mutated Animals. I'm wondering what this would ultimately mean for any human that has this happen to them. It is one thing to lightly brush over the idea in thought but another once you really think about it.

Here is some of the questions that it raises...

Since relationships are often portrayed in TMNT, does this mean that any relationship between Human and Human-origin Mutant (say Nick's and OT's Splinter) would constitute bestiality?

Human prejudices not-withstanding, would this man that legally that Human-Origin Mutants would now be classified with animals and livestock, like it would be legal for instance to kill Bebop and turn him into porkchops and bacon, since he's not human anymore?

Or are they not 'true' animals, but mainly it being an idea, and still would constitute all of their human rights (human prejudice not-withstanding?)

The reason I ask this is because I have yet to see it explored aside from the Human-Origin side, at least not this deeply. These are two of the major questions I could come up with that oft pertained with humanity and animals mixed in, so I hope they aren't too weird.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Not weird at all. I would imagine they'd still have basic "human" rights they were born with, since that's what they were originally. They might also be afforded animal rights as well, (IE harming a human-side mutant would also constitute animal abuse in addition to any other crimes) but that's just a guess.

I don't think it would be considered bestiality, since they WERE human at one time, though some might have a more "racist" approach based on the fact they are no longer "pure" humans. There might be some morally grey areas in terms of how they are treated, but I think it would be on an individual basis, and probably tie in to how far they have become "animals" in looks or behavior.

[ImmaAxolotl]

Man, this is juicy! Imagine if there was a comic storyline based off of this!

...Some people might get bored with it, though.

[Luckyday]

Well as layman as it sounds, I think as long you were born as a human on American soil then you would have automatic rights as a citizen. Even if you as a human have turn into a wolf man or woman, things like social security, to vote, and to own property would not be taken away from you, because I don't think anything that was written in the constitution can undermined your rights when you are not human anymore. Case in point, if you are hospitalized and became a vegetable, but your family doesn't want to pull the plug or there no one to tell the hospital to do so then you won't be treated as something to get rid of or a piece of meat/property. You're something that has to be taken care of as a person.

The key being "you when are not human anymore" and not becoming "humanized"
like the ninja turtles because on paper, they're someone one else's property. It's a just a matter of technicality and maybe it's something needs to be taken to the supreme court.

Funny enough in certain places like the United Kingdom, there are rights guaranteed to non-humans from unnecessary cruelty, but it only goes so far as to make it unlawful to performed surgery without anesthesia for experiments.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Interesting that you brought that up about being property as non-humans or animals, Luckyday, as that might possibly lead to situations like Bebop and Rocksteady being considered Shredder's property- so if for example, Bebop were to piss on the sidewalk in public, Shredder could be fined for it! Also, that brings up the touchy subject of "slavery"- because if they then become "property", then that technically makes them slaves to their "owner".....

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Interesting that you brought that up about being property as non-humans or animals, Luckyday, as that might possibly lead to situations like Bebop and Rocksteady being considered Shredder's property- so if for example, Bebop were to piss on the sidewalk in public, Shredder could be fined for it! Also, that brings up the touchy subject of "slavery"- because if they then become "property", then that technically makes them slaves to their "owner".....

But it doesn't because they were born as human in which the law protects them becoming property. However if Shredder's dog becomes a mutant and piss on someone sidewalk then it would be Shredder that gets in trouble. Not the dog mutant.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, like I said in my earlier post, they might ALSO be afforded status as animals(non-humans) in addition to their original human rights (IE the animal abuse issue) so.... It's entirely possible that a legal loophole could label them as both- because although they WERE human, they are now NON-human- and thus have the status of both. In which case, Shredder COULD claim them as "property" because HE created/mutated them! (And as it was done through willing participation, they could be considered wards, adoptees, pets, livestock, exotic animals, or anything in between- including "animal/non-human servants" aka slaves....)

Knowing Shredder, he would probably find a way to exploit whatever loopholes the laws would allow. Also, their NEW status might possibly supersede their original human rights, by making them no longer LEGALLY human (due to the mutation giving them animal traits) so it's possible those rights COULD be revoked- but that would be a legal nightmare!

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Well, like I said in my earlier post, they might ALSO be afforded status as animals(non-humans) in addition to their original human rights (IE the animal abuse issue) so.... It's entirely possible that a legal loophole could label them as both- because although they WERE human, they are now NON-human- and thus have the status of both. In which case, Shredder COULD claim them as "property" because HE created/mutated them! (And as it was done through willing participation, they could be considered wards, adoptees, pets, livestock, exotic animals, or anything in between- including "animal/non-human servants" aka slaves....)

It doesn't matter because the law has nothing to really say or determine a scenario in which a human becomes a non human and it only covers the qualifications that counts for citizenship in which they probably have in spades, they would be look as citizen and would have rights as citizens . The only way that he could be claim them as property would be if Shredder fabricate and possibly destroy evidence such as Rocksteady's green card and Bebop's birth certificate. Shredder would have to go out of his way to kill Bebop remaining human kin because they have witness testimony that Bebop was indeed born human.

If was discovered that Shredder was lying then Shredder would go to jail for human trafficking.

Animal abuses law only exist for ownership of livestock because animals can not talk for themselves. It does not matter as much if they only look like animals. Animal abuses is no more different then child abuse because it happen when one side has no power or say.

What is more of a concerning issue is when non sentient animals mutated into something that can

*Take care of themselves. They don't need help to get food or to go anywhere. A normal pet is not allow to go by themselves but mutants can obviously.
*Can speak for themselves with crystal clear cognition.
*Have hyper awareness for their actions and surroundings. Meaning to take full responsibility.

BUT the law doesn't cover them. It should but doesn't because never predicate anything like this. They should have same rights and maybe some health insurance to cover their biology. They can't just go to any human hospital. The doctors could accidentally kill them due medicine that was meant for humans.

With humans that turned into mutants but have both lose cognition and awareness, will have their decisions on their well being made from either family member of next of kin like April O'neil or a lawyer. In rare cases in which the citizen has neither are wards of the state, kind like orphans or mental patients. The governor would have to build mutant asylums or I guess recovery centers but in the mean time, they would give them away to zoologic field research centers with tax payer money to look after them and not do **** up experiments on them because in the eye of the law, they're still human.
Poorer states would find a nearest zoo.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

There's a problem with that logic though- first, you'd have to PROVE they were born human (and that they are the SAME person whose name is on any legal documents) and second, because they are no longer "pure human", they are no longer explicitly covered by legal documentation, since there are no laws protecting mutants against discrimination, loss of rights, or even granting them full citizenship status. Actually, in light of that, I take back my first post of saying they'd still have all their rights. The fact that mutants aren't covered under any current laws means they'd have to PROVE their citizenship and identity before they could even be allowed something as simple as a driver's license!

Because there are no witnesses to say that they WERE born human (because no one but Shredder was around to witness their actual mutation) it would just be their word, which would probably not be admissible as evidence. Just because they CLAIM they were human first, doesn't mean anyone would believe them or that they could PROVE it. Any photos they took before the mutation wouldn't be proof of identity, because they no longer look like their old selves, and their DNA would also have changed enough that it probably wouldn't match any previous DNA records. By the same token, photos taken AFTER the mutation would mean nothing.

The problem is being able to prove they WERE human once, and that they still retain the same rights by right of identity, which since there are no laws to protect SENTIENT non-humans. (Since we're not talking about non-sentient animals) they could very well be relegated to being covered under non-human laws (IE animals) I'm starting to lean toward Shredder taking FULL advantage of this to quite literally keep them on a short leash by claiming them as legally his property because they no longer have any actual rights as full humans. (I mean, yeah, in an ideal perfect world, they WOULD still have those rights, but let's face it, the legal system is so f*cked that most judges would probably not even bother considering them as anything but experiments- which fall under the category of scientific research, and thus, are considered property....)

However, the flip side to this is that he could still be fully accountable for any mistreatment of them, so that might allow them some freedom. But I seriously doubt either of them would have the resources or even the intelligence to try to fight for their legal rights, nor would he ever allow them the opportunity, since that would mean they 'd be free to go elsewhere. Also, discrimination by most people based on anti-mutant sentiments, or heck, even health code violations would make it unlikely they'd be able to get jobs in most places, leaving them little opportunity or options to survive on their own, in spite of the fact they are fully capable of doing whatever work humans could. So basically, they're stuck with doing whatever he says, either way, simply because they've got nowhere else to go, and even if they HAD the "rights" of other humans LEGALLY(which I'm starting to think would be unlikely given the wording of the legal system in most situations) they wouldn't have much of a choice.

Other mutants like Yoshi/Splinter would likely be in the same predicament- they might BE the same person as before, but without being able to prove it, they'd be f*cked on legal matters due to not having any protections under the law. Since the laws of most countries apply only to humans, and those that are designed to protect animals don't specifically mention sentient non-humans in any way.

[ProactiveMan]

I don't think there would ever be a definitive answer until a legal precedent was set in a court of law. I suspect however, that if Shredder ever found himself before a judge, he would have more immediate concerns than mutant rights violations.

Edit: To the main point - I don't think a mutant would have much trouble securing rights, be they originally human or non-human, if they were/acted essentially human, and could communicate in a human way. Although we allow ourselves treat most non-human animals as property (depending on local laws etc.), if a cow stood in front of the UN and demanded rights in an understandable language, they'd probably get them.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, but just imagine the political and social-issues nightmare that would ensue! You'd have protesters on both sides, legal debates out the wazoo over whether to grant said rights, and it would tie up courts for YEARS over wording and possible ramifications of allowing "non-humans" to have the same rights as others. Because then where would you draw the line? Would dolphins and sign-language using apes also qualify? Or just mutant animals (from either end) that can actually speak a known language? Most government officials would probably scream and run the other way instead of dealing with it, LOL!

And LOL on the Shredder in court thing, too! I imagine he's got bigger crimes to pay for, though tacking on "animal abuse and/or human trafficking would probably just add insult to injury on that score....

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yeah, but just imagine the political and social-issues nightmare that would ensue! You'd have protesters on both sides, legal debates out the wazoo over whether to grant said rights, and it would tie up courts for YEARS over wording and possible ramifications of allowing "non-humans" to have the same rights as others. Because then where would you draw the line? Would dolphins and sign-language using apes also qualify? Or just mutant animals (from either end) that can actually speak a known language? Most government officials would probably scream and run the other way instead of dealing with it, LOL!

And LOL on the Shredder in court thing, too! I imagine he's got bigger crimes to pay for, though tacking on "animal abuse and/or human trafficking would probably just add insult to injury on that score....

Plus I can totally see Steranko and Anton taking Shredder to court over their freedom. Bebop and Rocksteady from David Wise and IDW comics wouldn't have the motivations, resources or even education of civil law, but both Anton and Steranko probably have lawyers that had represented them in the past from their criminal history, plus they hate Shredder's guts.They both have the resources , motivation and are perhaps law savoy enough to go through with it and even they lost Steranko v. Oroku, it would still leave so much unwanted attention for Shredder and make him a number one priority for the NSA.

The only reason why they haven't bother would be because they would have no where else to go but if Steranko had connections that could help him set up somewhere, he would do it in a heart beat. If they won the court case then all of the other human turn mutants would show up out of the wood work. This could be a great set up for the mirage volume 4 but instead of aliens, it happened because Bebop and Rocksteady won a law suit and turtles would able to go topside but only if they had set themselves with an alibi that they were born human, with would still leave a element of danger from prosecutors like Bishop.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Yeah, but just imagine the political and social-issues nightmare that would ensue! You'd have protesters on both sides, legal debates out the wazoo over whether to grant said rights, and it would tie up courts for YEARS over wording and possible ramifications of allowing "non-humans" to have the same rights as others. Because then where would you draw the line? Would dolphins and sign-language using apes also qualify? Or just mutant animals (from either end) that can actually speak a known language? Most government officials would probably scream and run the other way instead of dealing with it, LOL!

And LOL on the Shredder in court thing, too! I imagine he's got bigger crimes to pay for, though tacking on "animal abuse and/or human trafficking would probably just add insult to injury on that score....

Yeah, just imagine if chickens could speak, it would be a total political/legal horror show. There would be a cosy booth at The Hague reserved for a certain Kentucky Colonel.

It's funny how we are more empathetic towards animals with human-like traits, or at least traits that we recognise as human-like. I suppose it's understandable, but I feel sorry for the pigs. Poor little buggers can't catch a break; they're about as smart as dogs, but they don't have expressive faces, so while the concept of eating dogs is so abhorrent to people, eating pigs is not only OK, it's celebrated as some kind of hilarious joke, i.e. bacon.

I'm no different; I'm not a vegetarian.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

Yeah, just imagine if chickens could speak, it would be a total political/legal horror show. There would be a cosy booth at The Hague reserved for a certain Kentucky Colonel.

Well that might be a solution to that specific problem of dealing with livestock or cattle turn mutant, but it's **** up in every sense of the word.