Terrible Comic Writers

[myconius]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Yeah, editorial also caused the quality of Batman Inc to suffer, and Morrison (imo) went out on a major whimper because of it.

i couldn't agree more!

and that was a huge shame because he was on such an incredible roll before that whole cruddy 2011 re-launch interference!

[Leo656]

Geoff has pull but somehow I doubt he throws much weight around. To this day, he still comes across to me like a big kid who still kind of can't believe he lucked into his dream job and doesn't want to rock the boat too much. Like if you ever see him speak about DC and their characters, he still has this wide-eyed "Gee Whiz!" kind of way about him. I could be way off base but I'm usually pretty decent at reading people. I just figure, ten years ago he was "just" a writer who specialized in working on stuff that other writers thought was too hard, and making it work beautifully. Now he gets to be more "Up Top", but at the same time, still remembers how it wasn't all that long ago that only hardcores knew his name and still feels like more of an employee than a "higher-up". I'm sure he absolutely contributes but also don't think he tries to go against the grain very much, more just make the best of what he's given. I mean, I could be totally wrong, that's just how it seems to me. Especially given how DiDio is so much of a "F*ck that, we're doing THIS" kind of person, and he's the boss and decision-maker.

Like I said before, both Jurgens and Johns were very talented writers whose new 52 output wasn't well-received, but it's less their fault, and more like, without them contributing the entire thing would have been even worse, so thank god they were even there, y'know? It's like how Jurgens inadvertently helped bring the whole Clone Mess to a close over at Spider-Man; the entire thing as a whole was a wreck, and his own stuff wasn't his best due to what he had to try and sell to readers, but it was better than most of the rest of what was coming out. AND he was the one to finally convince the editors that the entire thing was stupid, spiraling out of control, insulting to readers' intelligence and satisfying to no one at all. That's what made them get rid of Reilly and bring things back to semi-normal; before Jurgens spoke up, the thing was set to go on indefinitely because it was inexplicably selling well despite nobody actually liking it, so although he left the book way before it was resolved, it's because he spoke up that the thing even had a concrete resolution, at all. We might STILL be juggling Peter and Ben and arguing which one was the clone, otherwise.

So again, sometimes a great writer's sh*tty patch is really just a shinier piece of editorially-driven crap than what everyone else is doing, in which case, it's less that they suck at writing and more like nobody could ever make that stuff work and bless 'em for even trying. I actually feel bad for them, honestly.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

We might STILL be juggling Peter and Ben and arguing which one was the clone, otherwise.

Given the fact lots of fans pine for Ben Reily's return to this day, that wouldn't be too bad actually. The ending of the 2009 Clone Saga remake kind of closes out with resolving that notion...that Peter and Ben didn't know which one was which, but at the end of the day, the moral of the story was that their lives are their own and they have to act on where they are in the now and not who they were then. They resolve to put the issue to bed and carry on with their lives. Ben moves away while Peter resumes being Spidey only now saddled with being a dad. Life goes on. It's a great message and it left the door fully open for more interactions between the characters in the future...of course nothing came of this series due to low sales (the intention was to possibly do a Ben Reilly series set in this continuity if sales were good), but it was nice while it lasted

The Clone Saga does have it's fans (I'm one of them) and I find reading it, it actually gets better with age where as everything since then (prior to the otherwise excellent JMS era and certainly everything after) gets worse.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, I'm with Zarius on this one. The Clone Saga get far more hate than it really deserves, and is touted as a "mess", when it really wasn't (much). Complicated? Yes, certainly. Confusing? To some, who might have missed side-stories and minor details, perhaps. But overall, it was an interesting plot, and involved some heavy mind-f**king of both Peter and Ben by Jackal and others. The fact that it ended on such a sour note is more a product of the fact that so many fans got utterly upset by the idea that "their" Spidey might have been an imposter all along! The recent "redux" that Zarius mentioned was pretty good about resolving any remaining issues, and though I only read a few issues of it, it was fairly good compared to other Spidey tales at the time. Certainly better than the likes of M-J's post-BND arc as a successful actress dating- whoever that "heartthrob" was, (the guy Paper Doll was obsessed with), or the stunt driver "villain", or anything involving Screwball. Mr. Negative was possibly the only decent element to come out of all that, and he's been largely forgotten outside of his inadvertent creation of Anti-Venom. (Which was really just a cop-out way to throw a bone to the Brock/Venom fans, IMHO....)

[Leo656]

If either of you haven't ever read "The Life of Reilly", I absolutely recommend it if you have a free week to take it all in. I always love hearing what was going on behind-the-scenes as stories are being written. I think I posted the link in another thread but I can find it again if necessary.

I confess that the Clone Saga era was where I abandoned ship with Spider-Man and only ever bought like two dozen issues since, at most. Reading how it was conceived and executed was fascinating, but for whatever fans it has or whatever came of it, I'm never going to fully be able to embrace an entire two year run where things were literally being pulled out of the collective asses of everyone involved on a week-to-week basis. There's a million and one ways the ideas they initially had could have been good, but none of those things actually happened and what did hit the page was just stuff being booked on the fly to keep the whole thing going another week. And that ain't no way to run a railroad.


They should've stuck to their guns and banged the whole thing out in to months, with the original ending. Peter had been acting out of character in the books before that for years, so the fact Ben was originally supposed to be the real Peter Parker made a lot of sense. Everything they did afterwards didn't. Having Ben be the clone and killing him off basically made the entire two-year run pointless. I hate sh*t like that. They should have just let it end at the original planned endpoint, with Peter and MJ moving to Oregon to raise the kid and Ben taking over as Spider-Man. All that stuff like "Lost Years" and "Final Adventure" or whatever it was only happened to build to that; and then almost the next day, "Nevermind, we're doing the exact opposite of everything we've been building to!" Ooof, that's brutal, man.

Part of it's the wrestler/wrestling fan in me; "booking on the fly" sucks. You make a plan, you leave a little wiggle room to shift if you have to, but otherwise, you stick to the plan. You simply can't tell a good long-form story with zero long-term planning and a bunch of people changing their minds week-to-week about what the story even is.

I've only read less than half the actual Clone Saga issues, but I think reading about it was more fun than reading it would be. I mean, how can I argue with the people who wrote it, when even they say it's rotten? I'll probably read it one day, but I've read enough to know I'm most likely not going to have a much different opinion.

But yeah lemme know if you need that link. S'pretty good. Long but good.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If either of you haven't ever read "The Life of Reilly", I absolutely recommend it

I have. Several times. The fact the whole thing turns out half as decent as it does in spite of all those problems is miraculous.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Mr. Negative was possibly the only decent element to come out of all that, and he's been largely forgotten outside of his inadvertent creation of Anti-Venom. (Which was really just a cop-out way to throw a bone to the Brock/Venom fans, IMHO....)

Actually, Negative's being used a bit more frequently again. He showed up in Gerry Conway's "Spiral" and he's the villain of Slott's current ASM storyline

[Leo656]

You have my awe. It took me like three weeks to get through it in a few chunks each day. That thing is goddamn massive. But fascinating! I absolutely ADORE reading stuff like that. Sometimes I'm more interested in how stories like movies or comics are made than in what the actual story itself ends up being.

And yeah, "miraculous" is totally the appropriate word.

[Bry]

Oh man. Life of Reilly was a great read. It's been a long time since I went through it, but now I kind of want to check it out again.

I was about 10 when the Clone Saga kicked off and I followed it throughout. And yeah, in hindsight it was a total train wreck. But Ben was a solid, endearing character that I still like a lot -- from rereading some of that run, Ben shines quite a bit amongst the muck.

To me, it's a shame that they extended that plotline so long that he was considered toxic outright, a sacrificial lamb for the editors' sins. It was very cool for Peter to have a "brother", a walking what-if that went through some seriously hopeless times and was still every bit the hero that Peter is.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I absolutely ADORE reading stuff like that. Sometimes I'm more interested in how stories like movies or comics are made than in what the actual story itself ends up being.

Try reading "Fantastic Four: The Great American Novel" sometime. Just as lengthy and a great mix of philosophy, history of the FF and American culture, interviews with comic creators, and one fan's frightfully on-point perspectives regarding an inevitable reboot of the Marvel Universe sooner than you think.

[Krutch]

Grant Morrison.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by Krutch

Grant Morrison.

hit or miss maybe? but terrible ....nope.

[Krutch]

Fair enough. Personally I find when he "hits", it's serviceable-to-decent. But when he misses, which is far more often, he's one of the worst writers imaginable. Ive read so much of what he's written and I'd say We3 and maybe one fifth of All Star Superman were what I consider decent. You can just see how full of himself he is dripping off the pages.

And he holds my personal vote for the worst trade back I've ever purchased with The Filth.

...and Judd Winnick sucks while we're at it

[myconius]

Originally Posted by Krutch

Fair enough. Personally I find when he "hits", it's serviceable-to-decent. But when he misses, which is far more often, he's one of the worst writers imaginable. Ive read so much of what he's written and I'd say We3 and maybe one fifth of All Star Superman were what I consider decent. You can just see how full of himself he is dripping off the pages.

And he holds my personal vote for the worst trade back I've ever purchased with The Filth.

...and Judd Winnick sucks while we're at it

the Filth .... VERY much a miss!!!!

it took me a second read-through to understand Flex Mentallo, but now i really enjoy it a lot despite being overblown with symbolism. it's just a fun ride.

but OHHHHHHHHH the Filth! THAT was a damn chore to get through!!! >.<
giant sperms!!!! WTH???

i absolutely LOVED We3 !!!
guess i'm just a sucker for animals! @u@

but some of those moments STILL get me all misty-eyed when i read them!



"DEE-COMM-ISH"
the FEELS!!!!! the FEELS!!!!! ;;;;n;;;;;

yeah Judd Winick can lay some real eggs!!!!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I just read WE3 this weekend. Amazing stuff... RIP, 3.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I just read WE3 this weekend. Amazing stuff... RIP, 3.

wasn't it awesome???

but yeah, it'll tear your heart out that story!!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

wasn't it awesome???

but yeah, it'll tear your heart out that story!!

It was so much better than I expected. Also way more bloody than I expected.

2 is a beast.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

It was so much better than I expected. Also way more bloody than I expected.

2 is a beast.

seeing the first few pages of the preview i knew i was definitely going to enjoy it artistically, but the story really caught me by surprise!

yeah! # 2 was a real spitfire!!!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

seeing the first few pages of the preview i knew i was definitely going to enjoy it artistically, but the story really caught me by surprise!

yeah! # 2 was a real spitfire!!!

http://comicsalliance.com/files/2011/08/we3-745337.jpg

I loved when 1 attacks 2 and you think he's going to kill the cat, only to see him ripping the suit off the cat. "Suit not us" or whatever he said.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I loved when 1 attacks 2 and you think he's going to kill the cat, only to see him ripping the suit off the cat. "Suit not us" or whatever he said.

i kinda knew where 1 was going with his ripping off 2's robotics.
though i have a feeling 2 was going to take it as something else and try to kill 1?

thankfully he shook that goofy cat out of the suit before she even knew what hit her!

it was actually pretty awesome how it all turned out!

shame about #3.
"UH-OH"

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by myconius

i kinda knew where 1 was going with his ripping off 2's robotics.
though i have a feeling 2 was going to take it as something else and try to kill 1?

thankfully he shook that goofy cat out of the suit before she even knew what hit her!

it was actually pretty awesome how it all turned out!

shame about #3.
"UH-OH"

"Uh oh" was heartbreaking.

Take out that pitbull sonuvabitch! TAKE HIM OUT!!!