Star Wars Episode 8

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

But we're already 2/3s of the way through said trilogy and we still don't know what's going on. Who's the bad guy? What exactly do they want to do? What are the Knights of Ren? What was Snoke's plan? Old faces show up and die, new faces show up and don't do too much meaningful.

[plastroncafe]

I can't help but feel like we watched very different movies.

[sdp]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Those audiences ratings like on Rotten Tomatoes shouldnt be counted, since the Cinemascore rating is the real audience rating, which has given the Last Jedi, an A Cinemascore.
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://i64.tinypic.com/34zambc.jpg

The only people upset, are a vocal minority.

What? Did you check that website? All movies have positive ratings even ones that everyone agrees are not good. If we count this website the audiences love The Phantom Menace.

How is it a vocal minority? Look at this thread, more people disliked it than didn't. When TFA there were plenty of people who didn't like it like me but we were drowned out by all the people that loved it.

Originally Posted by newfan

I can't remember where I read it now, maybe I misinterpreted it but I'm sure I read there was some re-writing..

[/QUOTE]
Maybe you're confusing it with the re-writes that both Rogue One and Han Solo had?

I read about how they rewrote all of the Sequel Trilogy because someone at Disney said the Lucas ones "were too much like the prequels".

But maybe you're right since TLJ was originally supposed to come out in May.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Even if you are happy with the plot twists and changes, the film can underperform in other areas too. For me it was humor and the gender politics.

I didn't notice the gender politics while watching the film but after having them pointed out they're clearly there. I don't think that's what makes the movie bad but it wouldn't surprise me if many people are defending the film just because of this furthers their agenda.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

After the dust settles, could this possibly be...a franchise killer? Or at least the one that takes a lot of steam out of the sail?

Maybe, and I don't think TLJ is such a terrible movie, I think audiences are just getting tired of annual Star Wars. This is the third movie we get from Disney every year, now with Han Solo there's going to be another one.

I think fans loved rehashing the Rebels vs Empire story but after TFA and RO then TLJ was just too much, especially since they're only a year apart. This was going to happen eventually. I wrote about it last year, I just didn't 'think the backlash would happen so soon.

I also noticed that after the Disney/Fox announcement, it was actually met with negativity. These announcements were usually met with "Disney does an excellent job, good!" but with this one people started to think "Disney is going to own everything" and started criticizing even the Marvel movies. I think it's also a backlash at seeing that all the entertainment comes from Disney and noticing the similarities between all their products.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not remotely. If anything, the polarizing audience reaction might make Disney tighten the corporate reins even moreso, creatively.

What's depressing is this is the correct answer. And I don't like TLJ for keeping the status quo even with the message of "let old things die", but I liked the new interesting takes it took the franchise like the Kylo/Rey relationship (before messing it up and going back to the status quo)

Originally Posted by Krutch

Speaking of midichlorians, I kinda hope they're mentioned again sometime. Not that I love the idea - quite the opposite. Introduce them as an old way of thinking and move on.

(still on his anti-Jedi kick from Last Jedi)
Luke: "There was even a time when the Jedi couldn't distinguish The Force from midichlorians."

Done and done.

Midicholorians are something that never bothered me when I saw Episode I, and I never understood the hate until one article that wasn't a fanboy ranting and explained how it took the "magic" away from Star Wars and I finally understood.

Counting Lucas didn't mention midichlorians again in either Ep.II or III I'm guessing they'll never be mentioned again. I could go either way, I don't miss the midichlorian talk but I wouldn't mind if they mentioned them.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

I don't think anyone argues that, the Star Wars universe and world building it did over the past decades was awesome, sure there was plenty of crap but also plenty of awesome stuff, there was and is a ton of potential.

This is why people get mad that we have Empire vs Rebels again when there's so much to draw from. We dont want spin-offs like Rogue One when we can have spin-offs not related to the OT.

I also don't understand all the hate Rian Johnson is getting over TLJ, all of the films faults were seeds planted in TFA, JJ is to blame.

[CyberCubed]

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

I really wish if they wanted to do that so bad, they at least would have flipped it around. Like, the New Republic has fallen into its own kind of corruption (maybe the surviving members of the Rebel Alliance were so traumatized by the Empire's activities up to and including two Death Stars, its answer to stopping that in the future as the New Republic is to build its own brand of superweapons, and becomes overzealous in dealing with the problems of various worlds), so it's up to the latest generation of Skywalkers and/or Solos to build a new Rebel Alliance against it, perhaps even consisting of not-so-bad Imperial remnants.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I do think The New Order, especially it being so powerful, is a misstep. Especially since this is 30 years after the original trilogy, you certainly wouldn't expect them to still be this powerful and be such a dominant force in the galaxy. It sorts of undermines the big victory of defeating Darth Vader and Palpatine if you realize nothing much really changes. But again it's mostly on J.J. Abrams or whatever other business execs decided this to begin with.

It's almost like it's echoing events in the real world...

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's almost like it's echoing events in the real world...

But that's like saying after Hitler and the Nazi's fell in World War II, there was still a just as dominant force there threatening to take over the world like back in the 40's.

Since then it's just been the cold war with Mother Russia, and the endless wars in the Middle East that have been going on for hundreds of years. There is no huge Nazi empire threatening to take over the world at this point.

The New Order is like the fall of the Empire was just a small afterthought.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The New Order is like the fall of the Empire was just a small afterthought.

I don't see it that way.
The Empire Fell, but it didn't die.
And the First Order is the remnants of that Empire returning...and successfully rising again, with a new generation leading the charge.

This is what I like about this new series of movies.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I think Star Wars has to grow beyond the Skywalker family, its why Rian Johnson is working on this new trilogy afterward, to tell stories of other people who made a difference in this universe.

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.

[victory_angel]

My Mom view Luke as having a grizzled old war hero mentality. The “I’ve done my part, now I just want to be left alone.” She said this was a kind of mentality you would have to be in your fifties and sixties to really actually grasp. And she has certainly seen that same mentality from some of the residence at the retirement communities she has staffed at.


The one question I brought up to my mother after the movie is where is this franchise going to go now. It’s obvious that the story is going in a direction that feels new and people are either liking this direction or are immediately saying that it makes the franchise unrecognizable. But there is a set up for something big on the horizon which will come to a head in episode 9.

There is some talk about a possible forth trillogy which would bring us up to episode 12. But I get this feeling that perhaps Disney is also preparing us for an end to this story as well. Which is understandable, after all there is only so long the story can be continued. The old characters we have come to love are gone, and while we see some hints of a new birth to the Jedi order are gone it isn’t the same with out the trio that started it all. But while the main story would come to an end, that doesn’t mean Star Wars as a franchise would die. Instead it would spawn a collection of side stories and character stories that would used for the purpose of world building.

Take a look at Harry Potter for example, the main story as we know it is over following the seventh book. While it might be great to see a film version of the Cursed Child, do we really need to? Personally I don’t think it really matters what the Trio did after they left Hogwarts, because their story is done. However the wizarding world still can be fleshed out which is why we have Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them to help continue to flesh out the Wizarding World. Eventually there will be films about the Marauders and their life through Hogwarts. Or the History of Hogwarts itself.

So with Star Wars we have World Building films such as Rogue one being a small but no less important moment in the continuity of the saga as it was the rebel faction that stole the plans for the Death Star. But you would have to read the prequel novel Catalyst to learn about Jyn’s family and why they went into hiding.

Just like one has to read the Aftermath Trillogy to see what happened after the Empire was destroyed. After all it wasn’t just “We won, now there is peace” but more a “The empire has been struck a fatal blow, now those who are still loyal to it and hold power with in it are in a power grab to keep it stable and eventually leading to the creation of the First Order”

There is a Han Solo movie going be released this up coming year, and an Obi Wan Kenobi spin off film that is currently rumored to begin filming in. So the Star Wars universe will still have more to offer us. And of course the classic story would eventually be refilmed and rebooted for newer formats and technology.


However world building stories still aren’t enough to really keep a story relivent. For example Disney some years ago had the rights to the Chronicles of Narnia, of which three of the seven books have been adapted to theatrical film. But these three films also conclude any involvement the four Pevencie children really have in the story itself.

Spoiler:

That is until everyone except Susan is killed in a tragic train accident in the final book.

but the rest of the novels are largely just about Narnia itself which is fine, but might not really draw people into it film wise. Particularly after how much time has passed since the last film. There is talk about the Silver Chair being adapted to film by Sony Pictures, but I don’t think it’s that likely to really take off.

The most recent cash cow that Disney has aquired is Wrinkle in Time which is a book I have enjoyed as a child and still love as an adult. And I can see them adapting the sequel “The Wind in the Door” to film as well depending on Wrinkles success. The other two sequels on the other hands might not really get adapted at all, not to mention the sequel universe that follow the children of two of the main characters from Wrinkle in Time.

So with Star Wars, maybe an expanded universe to keep the franchise alive might work, but it will still lose fans who don’t see them as their Star Wars or fail to really draw in people who are newer to the Star Wars franchise.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.

I kind of tend to agree. If things do end up ultimately getting entirely divorced from the Solo and Skywalker bloodlines... after a few more of these movies, what's really going to separate the numbered installments from the "___________: A Star Wars Story" anthology movies, or any of the other spinoffs that will emerge?

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

The Skywalkers are the main heroes and villains of the franchise though. Might as well call it something else.

The video games Knights Of The Old Republic took place way way long before a Skywalker was involved, and those were highly regarded as good Star Wars games for its stories.

They can do new Star Wars movies set after this trilogy with new characters, that have no association with a Skywalker.

[sdp]

The problem is Episode VII doesn't take place a few years after Return of the Jedi, it takes place 30 years later.

Episode VI gives us the defeat of the Empire, The Emperor and Vader are gone and so are their super weapons and the majority of the planets are on the Rebels side. We see Corusant and other planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. Do I think Wars end that easily? In fiction yes, we already saw it happen in the Star Wars prequels and how this huge civil war ended immediately. But even then, Yes it would've been awesome to explore the remnants of the empire during THIS time a few years tops after ROTJ like the EU books did. I'm on board 100%.

Having these ideas 30 years later? That's not interesting, I want something NEW 30 years later. It makes the OT seem worthless, they achieved absolutely nothing, in fact they somehow don't have the upper hand anymore, it's trash.

You want a story that mirrors the real world? Look at Palpatines rise to power in the prequels, everyone hates the "politics" of the prequels, but I saw a very interesting story in how a man can fool the majority into thinking he is what they need to "save" them.




The Sequel Trilogy needed to be a sequel with new threats or ideas like an Outer Rim alien invation, that's only one example because I'm not super creative and I like the Vong since it felt something "new" that Star Wars hadn't done. I'm sure professional writers can come up with cooler stuff.

I LOVE being pandered to with nostalgia if done right, I would've loved more movies of Empire vs Rebels and seeing stories like that explored through Spin-Off movies. There are so many stories to tell during that period that doesn't need the main heroes. But when the sequel trilogy is doing Empire vs Rebels again for no reason and the spin-off films are doing Empire vs Rebels then I just lose interest. Hell I lose interest that out of all the stories they could've told they decided to give a backstory to "how the plans of the deathstar were stolen" and "How Han got the Millenium Falcon", these stories didn't need to be told and if they did they should've been comics or video games or books which is what the old EU did.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The video games Knights Of The Old Republic took place way way long before a Skywalker was involved, and those were highly regarded as good Star Wars games for its stories.

They can do new Star Wars movies set after this trilogy with new characters, that have no association with a Skywalker.

The shows, games, cartoons, etc don't count when it comes to the movies, nor should the movies have any obligation to reference all that extra material. Star Wars in essence, is the Skywalker story. Sure, it's a huge world and there are other characters that could work for spin offs, maybe, but the whole deal revolves around the Skywalkers.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by sdp

The problem is Episode VII doesn't take place a few years after Return of the Jedi, it takes place 30 years later.

Episode VI gives us the defeat of the Empire, The Emperor and Vader are gone and so are their super weapons and the majority of the planets are on the Rebels side. We see Corusant and other planets celebrating the fall of the Empire. Do I think Wars end that easily? In fiction yes, we already saw it happen in the Star Wars prequels and how this huge civil war ended immediately. But even then, Yes it would've been awesome to explore the remnants of the empire during THIS time a few years tops after ROTJ like the EU books did. I'm on board 100%.

Having these ideas 30 years later? That's not interesting, I want something NEW 30 years later. It makes the OT seem worthless, they achieved absolutely nothing, in fact they somehow don't have the upper hand anymore, it's trash.

You want a story that mirrors the real world? Look at Palpatines rise to power in the prequels, everyone hates the "politics" of the prequels, but I saw a very interesting story in how a man can fool the majority into thinking he is what they need to "save" them.




The Sequel Trilogy needed to be a sequel with new threats or ideas like an Outer Rim alien invation, that's only one example because I'm not super creative and I like the Vong since it felt something "new" that Star Wars hadn't done. I'm sure professional writers can come up with cooler stuff.

I LOVE being pandered to with nostalgia if done right, I would've loved more movies of Empire vs Rebels and seeing stories like that explored through Spin-Off movies. There are so many stories to tell during that period that doesn't need the main heroes. But when the sequel trilogy is doing Empire vs Rebels again for no reason and the spin-off films are doing Empire vs Rebels then I just lose interest. Hell I lose interest that out of all the stories they could've told they decided to give a backstory to "how the plans of the deathstar were stolen" and "How Han got the Millenium Falcon", these stories didn't need to be told and if they did they should've been comics or video games or books which is what the old EU did.

True, but if you're going to go that far away from the original story and characters, just don't make sequels. Let the series end with the Prequels and OT and make some other new space movie franchise.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I don't see it that way.
The Empire Fell, but it didn't die.
And the First Order is the remnants of that Empire returning...and successfully rising again, with a new generation leading the charge.

This is what I like about this new series of movies.

The Aftermath Novels are actually canon to the story, and they really don’t follow a “The Empire is gone now peace can reign”

But rather the Empire has been struck a very heavy blow, and that leads to a whole conflict to maintain what order they previously had while the Fledgling new republic becomes the new face of power.



“And the New Republic or the New-New Republic or the Republic We Got This Week will clamp down hard and then those people with the so-called better way will become the brave rebel alliance and the Republic will become the enemy and the wheel will turn once more.”
Starwars Aftermath.

[CyberCubed]

Few other things:

1. I'm glad Luke didn't die like Obi-wan did in Episode 4. When Luke shut down his lightsaber I was really fearing he would just let Kylo Ren kill him and disappear like Obi-wan did. Thank god that didn't happen.

2. Was the codebreaker guy meant to be like Lando? I was getting Empire Strike Backs flashbacks when Finn and Asian girl had to befriend some shady character who seemed to betray them to the Empire. I guess they had to have one blatant ESB callback there, although I'm glad he didn't turn good like Lando did.

3. Rey's "lifting rocks" comment the end was probably the funniest moment of the whole movie.

4. I'm surprised Maz, the old orange lady, was only in one small scene of the whole movie.

5. I actually liked how little Rey was in the climax. Her last big moment was basically fighting against the red imperial guards with Kylo Ren, but after that she was just in the Falcon with Chewy and the whole climax of the movie was with Luke and Poe/Finn.

6. Was Leia being absent for most of the middle of the movie because of her death in real life, or was it always planned like that? It felt to me like the purple haired lady was a stand-in for her for a lot of the movie for that reason.

7. Little slave kids gave me Anakin vibes. wtf.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

3. Rey's "lifting rocks" comment the end was probably the funniest moment of the whole movie.

I actually did get a good laugh out of that bit. It was set up perfectly and subtly enough earlier on and that was a great payoff.

6. Was Leia being absent for most of the middle of the movie because of her death in real life, or was it always planned like that? It felt to me like the purple haired lady was a stand-in for her for a lot of the movie for that reason.

You give yourself away with this one, Cubed.

[sdp]

Leia was boring in both sequels, especially in this one, I'm glad she won't be a main character in 9. Leia was one of the coolest characters in the OT, too bad her General role just didn't suit the character. At least her death means ghost look is a shoe-in for Episode IX.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Few other things:

1. I'm glad Luke didn't die like Obi-wan did in Episode 4. When Luke shut down his lightsaber I was really fearing he would just let Kylo Ren kill him and disappear like Obi-wan did. Thank god that didn't happen.

I had already read that he died accidentally a few hours before seeing the movie in a comment so I knew going in and I thought his "sacrifice" would be getting shot and killed and have the Empire lose all their time and ammo on shooting just one person. I though it was a cheap way to go but I was willing to accept it. The fact that the red dye went flying after the laser blasts I wasn't sure if it had been his blood or the dye. When I see him unscathed I geeked out.

I didn't mind that he was an illusion, it worked for me and so did his death on the island. For a moment i thought I had read a FAKE spoiler.

2. Was the codebreaker guy meant to be like Lando? I was getting Empire Strike Backs flashbacks when Finn and Asian girl had to befriend some shady character who seemed to betray them to the Empire. I guess they had to have one blatant ESB callback there, although I'm glad he didn't turn good like Lando did.

I don't know what they wanted to do with him, he seemed like an interesting character but he's gone as fast as he appeared and makes you wonder why even bother at all.

4. I'm surprised Maz, the old orange lady, was only in one small scene of the whole movie

I hated that orange lady, she was annoying in TFA but she was clearly meant to be a bigger character based on her introduction in TFA so to see her only get a quick cameo for the sake of continuity was another disappointment.

She got the same treatment that Jar Jar got in the prequels "Oh, looks like they didn't like Jar Jar, well since we invested so much time on this character it'd be awkward not to have him at all in them so let's just give him a brief cameo in the sequels then"

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by newfan

But Carrie died a few months after it was finished. Apparently she asked if she was going to have a bigger part in the next movie (and she was), I can see why... I liked her in the parts she had.... all but that one in space