"Theybies"

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by BartAllen

By that logic we could talk about the price of milk and apply the rules of inflation and say that's a political discussion. We get it, You are unable to deal with opinions that don't align with your own.

This is in no way shape or form a political discussion, at most this is deconstruction of a social experiment.

I what? I dunno who you are referring to, and I don't recall ever arguing with you, so I dunno what makes you think that, but whatever. It doesn't matter.

And ofc a thread about milk could lead to that, but I doubt someone is gonna make a thread about the price of milk anytime soon. When did someone ever make a thread about that in here? And a milk thread per se isn't a particularly controversial thread that's bound to lead to nasty arguments like a thread like this seems to be from the get-go.

Threads similar to this one have been made before and we all know how they've turned out. I have no problems with this thread per se or discussing political and social stuff, since I've obviously engaged in such discussions before, but Machias said she was gonna become more strict an maybe even start banning people. I don't want to get banned nor do most of you, I assume, so it just seems like we're asking for more trouble making threads like this. Andrew's ScarJo thread and Pagreg's thread both got locked and disintegrated. This one will most likely get as well.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I what? I dunno who you are referring to, and I don't recall ever arguing with you, so I dunno what makes you think that, but whatever. It doesn't matter.

And ofc a thread about milk could lead to that, but I doubt someone is gonna make a thread about the price of milk anytime soon. When did someone ever make a thread about that in here? And a milk thread per se isn't a particularly controversial thread that's bound to lead to nasty arguments like a thread like this seems to be from the get-go.

Threads similar to this one have been made before and we all know how they've turned out. I have no problems with this thread per se or discussing political and social stuff, since I've obviously engaged in such discussions before, but Machias said she was gonna become more strict an maybe even start banning people. I don't want to get banned nor do most of you, I assume, so it just seems like we're asking for more trouble making threads like this. Andrew's ScarJo thread and Pagreg's thread both got locked and disintegrated. This one will most likely get as well.

Well, Machias said "no political threads anymore! There will be cats and dogs living together and total chaos as we have seen in a part of the board that is easily avoidable!" So fine, there's no more political threads anymore. If she wants to come back out and say, "No political threads... and ALSO no threads about things that people may have strong opinions on!" then I guess that's her prerogative. It also might mean the board will become 200% less worth visiting. Until then? *shrug*

[TurtleWA]

Yes avoiding a thread you know could trigger you would be wise.

However, that takes a certain level of self control. The same amount of self control that is utilized in not getting into internet arguments in the first place.

So we would be asking those that lack the control and do get in the arguments to exercise more control and avoid the threads.

If they can’t avoid the argument how can they avoid the thread.

Side note: I confuse myself sometimes.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It also might mean the board will become 200% less worth visiting. Until then? *shrug*

or just have 200% less posters since everyone is banned and only two mods left ;o).

[neatoman]

I'm starting to see why it might have been a bad idea to make thread. I really hope I don't get banned for posting it...

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Well, Machias said "no political threads anymore! There will be cats and dogs living together and total chaos as we have seen in a part of the board that is easily avoidable!" So fine, there's no more political threads anymore. If she wants to come back out and say, "No political threads... and ALSO no threads about things that people may have strong opinions on!" then I guess that's her prerogative. It also might mean the board will become 200% less worth visiting. Until then? *shrug*

Yeah, I know. I, too, don't like this change but I don't make the rules around these parts. And at this point I think I've said anything I had to say about these type of issues already. Not much more I can add.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I'm starting to see why it might have been a bad idea to make thread. I really hope I don't get banned for posting it...

Well, Machias sent a PM to several people explaining the situation. You probably didn't get one because you mostly stick to the TMNT sections from my observation, so this means you probably weren't aware of this new "rule", so I'm sure you'll be fine.

[Voltron]

The biggest problem here is that there's no goal to the conversation. It's not an open discussion like "how would you feel if your child came out as gay?" it's just pointing at something and asking for an opinion. There's not much to discuss beyond "I agree" and "I disagree".

[Sumac]

Ah, another by-product of "liberalism".

Well, my opinion, in the current society you can't rise children without "gender". "Gender roles" are too ingrained in a very mentality of the humanity to be done with in the next 100 years or maybe even 1000 years. We are talking about stuff, that maybe even more ingrained that desire for religions and inherent to ALL humans, regardless of place and time and culture.

I approve of the idea, that parents should not forbid their children to play with whatever they want and select whatever "gender expressions" they want.

However, there is a danger that they might push their child to much in one direction or the other. Or that some groups might push their ideology on the other people, whose children have no problem with being risen in traditional "gender roles" and "expressions".
Humanity loves nothing more than create a good idea and then push to the complete and utter absurd. Just look at the history of religions or modern lefties.

In genera, I think humanity should solve other problem first, before going after kids.

And, one more thought: what exactly all this will lead too?
Formless humans who are uniform in the fact that they don't have solid identity?

[Vegita-San]

just heard my new parent sister saying some parents arn't even putting the gender of the baby down when they are born on the birth certificate.

I mean, how stupid can you be? those kids should be taken away right there and then cause they ain't going to grow up normal.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Ah, another by-product of "liberalism".

Well, my opinion, in the current society you can't rise children without "gender". "Gender roles" are too ingrained in a very mentality of the humanity to be done with in the next 100 years or maybe even 1000 years. We are talking about stuff, that maybe even more ingrained that desire for religions and inherent to ALL humans, regardless of place and time and culture.

I approve of the idea, that parents should not forbid their children to play with whatever they want and select whatever "gender expressions" they want.

However, there is a danger that they might push their child to much in one direction or the other. Or that some groups might push their ideology on the other people, whose children have no problem with being risen in traditional "gender roles" and "expressions".
Humanity loves nothing more than create a good idea and then push to the complete and utter absurd. Just look at the history of religions or modern lefties.

In genera, I think humanity should solve other problem first, before going after kids.

And, one more thought: what exactly all this will lead too?
Formless humans who are uniform in the fact that they don't have solid identity?

I think formless humans is a bleak prediction. It could be that we gain a better understanding of human mental health and emotional well-being.

The idea, as I see it, is to remove the stigma of NOT conforming to the norm. So that when a child reaches an age where they discover their gender or sexual prefences, there's no shame it in being different from what's currently expected.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by Voltron

I think formless humans is a bleak prediction. It could be that we gain a better understanding of human mental health and emotional well-being.

Oh hi there, sensible and rational thought. It's been a while!
Why people can't see that this is all anyone really wants, is beyond me.

The question seems to come down to, how authoritarian are you, as a parent? how little do you trust your children, and how much responsibility should they have?

If you're a helicopter parent, you'll have a very hard time with this.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Voltron

The idea, as I see it, is to remove the stigma of NOT conforming to the norm. So that when a child reaches an age where they discover their gender or sexual prefences, there's no shame it in being different from what's currently expected.

It can be achieved without robbing kids from being defined as "women" and "men". Especially, since biologically they always will be women and men.

In fact, if you say that boys need to identify out of being defined as boys / men, because, men can't do this and that, it only solidifies traditional gender roles.
This is the same thing, why all this "non-binary+" identities only harm the cause of making women and men more free from gender roles.

It's basically a logical "hack": instead of making women and men actually more free, by removing traditional understandings of gender roles, those people just create new "genders", which in turn at some point will be as stifling and limiting as the old ones. Then they will need to create new "gender identities" and so on.
This whole idea of new genders or "genderless" people is illogical though and thorough.

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Why people can't see that this is all anyone really wants, is beyond me.

Because, even grown up people not always know themselves what they want, much less kids, and can be easily pushed by propaganda or influence of society into harmful directions?
Like kids who go into teenage gangs, start doing drugs and so on.

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

The question seems to come down to, how authoritarian are you, as a parent? how little do you trust your children, and how much responsibility should they have?

If you're a helicopter parent, you'll have a very hard time with this.

Trust should come in limited amounts, especially when it comes to kids, who have limited experience with other people and life in general.
What if kid will decides that they can fly? Will you as liberal parent will allow it to jump from the roof and applaud how brave and stunning and individual your child is?
What if kid decides to try out drugs? Will you put a syringe in their hands?

I've actually met some "liberals", who genuinely believe that if person wants to commit suicide they should not be stopped from it, because, it's their right as individual. Needless to say, those people made me even further disgusted with current "liberalism".

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Voltron

The biggest problem here is that there's no goal to the conversation. It's not an open discussion like "how would you feel if your child came out as gay?" it's just pointing at something and asking for an opinion. There's not much to discuss beyond "I agree" and "I disagree".

Exactly. This.
the way it will say this, it's important to have conversations like this with a potential life partner, so that way should you decide to raise children you're both on the same page.

But I hardly see anyone in this thread using it as a means to find a potential life partner.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Exactly. This.
the way it will say this, it's important to have conversations like this with a potential life partner, so that way should you decide to raise children you're both on the same page.

But I hardly see anyone in this thread using it as a means to find a potential life partner.

Yeah, because, only potential life partners should discuss those things.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Yeah, because, only potential life partners should discuss those things.

Other peoples opinions matter?

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Other peoples opinions matter?

Imagine this!

[Ulisa]

I can certainly see WHY they’re trying to take this approach. As has been previously mentioned, I think this all stems from trying to eliminate the stigma of people going against “the norm” and I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing. Acceptance is something more people need to engage in.

Having said that though, I don’t think raising kids “without gender” is the way to go about it. Mainly because except in extremely rare cases, I don’t think it can be done. We engage in so many different behaviors subconsciously. It’s not as simple as giving trucks to one and dolls to another. We react, interact and interpret situations differently based on all kinds of factors; gender just happens to be a major one.

Case in point, they did a study on gender and parental interactions: they either assigned parents to an infant that was male, female or to one whom they did not reveal the gender of and had them respond when the child was frightened by a jack in the box. Almost 80% of those assigned to a female infant responded with comfort, physical affection when the child was startled. With the males, distraction was the response again at around 80%. What they found in the neutral group was a mix but it was consistent with what gender they THOUGHT the child was. Despite being told to keep gender neutral, the parents subconsciously assigned one and it affected their reactions.

[Vegita-San]

because this gender neutral mess is a relatively new idea.

The old way worked well for millions of years. just because a small minority thinks that it should change and work well, doesn't mean it will.

IMHO, and I am putting this bluntly, so consider me an enemy of free thought if you will... you are born what you are born. anything else is just a by product of modern craziness. or something in the water.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

because this gender neutral mess is a relatively new idea.

The old way worked well for millions of years. just because a small minority thinks that it should change and work well, doesn't mean it will.

IMHO, and I am putting this bluntly, so consider me an enemy of free thought if you will... you are born what you are born. anything else is just a by product of modern craziness. or something in the water.

Thought experiment.

Imagine, just for fun, I started telling you, that you were not you. You argued that you were in fact, you.

Imagine daily, weekly, monthly reinforcements that despite who you knew you were, you were attacked for trying to just be you.

Live it. Honestly. Let everything else go, and imagine being denied the right to just be who you are, because other people had a different opinion about who you were.

Sounds like a living hell to me, and all so somebody else can be okay with who they think you are.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Imagine this!

What gives you the impression anyone cares what you think?

[plastroncafe]

Who wants to be the one to tell Vegita that the concept gender neutrality goes back thousands of years?
And that what we'd define as modern humans around 200,000?
She's got me blocked, so it can't be me.