Suicide Squad 2: Gavin O'Connor in talks to write & direct film - Page 2

~~Leo656~~ · 02-02-2019, 11:17 AM

Nah, just curious brother.

I've met a lot of people who like the Riddler but honestly haven't had anyone tell me he's their specific favorite. Just wondering what made him stand out for you, and I do believe I have an answer.

I'm a bit silly in that I prefer the old spandex gimmick versus the suit and derby hat, myself. Can't quite explain why, just is what it is.

I thought the Hush twist was quite interesting, but it felt like they could've taken it a bit farther than they did before he lost his memory eventually.

They actually did that with Lex not long after, having him figure out Clark was Superman and then they had him forget about it without actually doing anything of substance with it. I feel like sometimes these guys fall in love with these "Shocking Final-Page Reveals!" and don't actually have a follow-up plan, and then if nobody comes up with one in a couple of months they just sweep it under the rug. Frustrating.

*MikeandRaph87* · 02-02-2019, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Nah, just curious brother.

I've met a lot of people who like the Riddler but honestly haven't had anyone tell me he's their specific favorite. Just wondering what made him stand out for you, and I do believe I have an answer.

I'm a bit silly in that I prefer the old spandex gimmick versus the suit and derby hat, myself. Can't quite explain why, just is what it is.

I thought the Hush twist was quite interesting, but it felt like they could've taken it a bit farther than they did before he lost his memory eventually.

They actually did that with Lex not long after, having him figure out Clark was Superman and then they had him forget about it without actually doing anything of substance with it. I feel like sometimes these guys fall in love with these "Shocking Final-Page Reveals!" and don't actually have a follow-up plan, and then if nobody comes up with one in a couple of months they just sweep it under the rug. Frustrating.

As insane as Gotham is there are two villains that you can truly sympathize with. Catwoman and Riddler. No, not Robin Lord Taylor's Penguin. He is great, but no sympathy. Eddie is King Snake/Bane's mind controlled agent. Lost love twice now, and only wants to be recognized for his intellect. As much as I rant while watching it I still root for The Riddler. As much as the final battle costume annoys me and how Carey's actual hair matches Eddie's I did like Batman Forever. Its just the look was wrong. Yes, Frank Gorshin did both the spandex and the suit and boler hat, but the spandex is silly yet cool. A sane and driven intellectual that you can sympathize with and gives a unique challenge. Why is he so hard to write? I recall Bruce Timm mentioning, a majority of the rejected scripts for Batman: The Animated Series were because they had trouble getting The Riddler right. He is hard to do. Mastermind, detective, used sparingly and effectively without a drastic makeover.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-02-2019, 11:51 AM

Well, full disclosure, I'm never concerned with whether or not I sympathize with a villain. I don't particularly want to. They're bad guys.

It's nice if I can understand their motivations but it's by no means necessary. It's nice sometimes, though.

Like with Lex, for example. It's become fashionable in recent years to humanize him, despite everything from the 80s through the early-2000s establishing that he's literally worse than Satan (or Neron, as the case may be). "If I ever HAD a soul, I lost it a long time ago", and all that. The more writers try and make him "someone the reader can relate to", the more they're getting it incorrect, as far as I'm concerned.

Now obviously Riddler isn't anywhere in that area, I was just making a general point about villains in general.

AND "truthishly", one of my favorite comics of all time includes a very, VERY good Riddler story that is indeed very sympathetic. Some even say it's the BEST Riddler story. I'unno about that necessarily, but it's written by Neal Gaiman, of all people, so of course it's quite good. And despite what I literally just said above, part of why the book excels is indeed because of how it puts each of the villains in a sympathetic light, moreso than they'd ever been portrayed as up to that point.

I'm sure you've seen THIS one before, haven't you?

That entire book is FANTASTIC, by the way, and worth tracking down at any price, as it contains what I will forever consider the "definitive" origins of Penguin, Riddler, and Two-Face. It's become somewhat highly-prized and somewhat expensive, due to it containing the VERY first appearance of the Joker after he murdered Jason Todd, so it was quite the hot book when it was fresh.

Must-read for any Batman fan. I personally can't ever put any of the characters' other origin tales above the ones presented in this book. These are the Real Deal, the rest is fanfic. When you read and compare, it's easy to see why.

The Riddler one is the midpoint comic relief, while the Penguin and Two-Face tales are rather dark, but the whole book is balanced very well. Highest Possible Recommendation and a bargain at any price for Bat-Fans.

*MikeandRaph87* · 02-02-2019, 12:04 PM

Sure, I dont need smpathy for The Riddler nor do I want it. Mr. Freeze, my second favorite, yes. I just dont like Riddler being 1. a serial killer (only should want to murder Batman) and 2. clearly driven by a compulsion not insane. I find it insulting to the character to be placed in Arkham Asylum.

We are getting off-topic.

Who is returning in Suicid Squad? They brought in a villain even I never heard of to kill off then there is Captain Boomerang and The Bat Rogues with Rick Flagg.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-02-2019, 12:24 PM

I'm not even sure I want him trying to kill Batman. Nashton's never been a bloodthirsty guy, and only ever interested in matching wits in a bid to prove his mental superiority. At least until more recent years, anyway.

The very first time I read a story where Riddler was openly trying to kill anyone - especially Batman - I'm like "Where'd they find this hack writer?" That's not who the character is. It's plainly just done because they ran out of ideas for him, and I find that lazy. He's a little more unique than all that.

Like, the Venom-infused "Jigsaw" ripoff in the TellTale Batman games? Neat character, well-done, but NOT the Riddler. Then again, everyone in those games was OOC as hell.

Anyways, I take thread topics as suggestions.

I've got not a whole lot to say about Squad 2 at this point, myself.

*MikeandRaph87* · 02-02-2019, 12:55 PM

I have read and own the 1989 Secret Origins comic posted above. While Harvey and Oswald's respectivevorigins were referred back to amd I know Penguin's added to, Nashton was used to break the fourth wall to refer to the made for tv villains from Batman'66 all the while hiding out in the city dump. War of Jokes and Riddles where he killed Kite-Man's son in a convulted plan to make The Joker laugh? WHAT? Sure, the demon possessed Riddler or the venomized Riddler in back to back Riddler appearances are fine, excused, and work with Eddie as a conduit. There is just no excuse for hack writers making The Riddler a cold blooded killer. Certain ones should kill sparringly and he is one of them. Penguin should order kills, Mr. Freeze should only if it pertains to preserving the life of his wife
Catwoman should avoid it altogether giving her a purity that can draw Bruce to her.

~~Leo656~~ · 02-03-2019, 04:58 PM

I agree with a good bit of that, for sure.

I'm never a fan of "It's just a new interpretation" excuse when they dramatically change things about a character. There's absolutely a line as to how far you can go before it's not the same character anymore. And I don't *think* it's that hard to figure out, most of the time.

There's no skill or craft in taking a B-List or C-list villain and tacking on a bodycount to "modernize" them. That's the epitome of lazy, hack writing.

I liked that story where Riddler was possessed; as you said, that made a bit more sense and still didn't betray the character. It was a good one-off story. I forget, what was the name of it? I know I have at least part of it somewhere, but I can't get into my Batman boxes right now.
------------

EDIT: Nevermind, you answered my question in the other thread. "Dark Knight, Dark City" was on the tip of my tongue, but I didn't wanna misspeak.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-13-2019, 11:45 AM

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/birds...movies-a166441

Weird times to live in. No Harley in Suicide Squad 2, even though she was arguably one of the best parts in it. But she's shoehorned into Birds of Prey with no Barbara Gordon and a really unathletic and ugly-looking Cassandra Cain. And nobody wants to do Gotham City Sirens.

I get why nobody wants to bring back Jared Leto, but I think erasing the "Damaged" tattoo and reining him in a bit more on set could have given us something really special. If, of course, he'd actually been the villain in the first movie.

Really, for every sensible movie choice the DCEU makes, they follow it up with about a hand's worth of questionable choices. I really gotta stop caring about this $hit.

*MikeandRaph87* · 02-13-2019, 12:29 PM

Wait...Gotham Sirens does not have Barbara Gordon in it? I was sold on getting Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz,but if there is not Barbara Gordon no sale for me!

*TurtleTitan97* · 02-13-2019, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Wait...Gotham Sirens does not have Barbara Gordon in it? I was sold on getting Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz,but if there is not Barbara Gordon no sale for me!

You mean Birds of Prey, right? Barbara has nothing to do with the Gotham City Sirens.

*Andrew NDB* · 02-13-2019, 12:32 PM

I'm OK with no Harley in Suicide Squad 2. She overshadowed the whole first movie... kind of like how she overshadows the whole DCEU now.

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-13-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm OK with no Harley in Suicide Squad 2. She overshadowed the whole first movie... kind of like how she overshadows the whole DCEU now.

You're not wrong there, but really, Ayer's script and directing didn't do justice to anybody in Suicide Squad except maybe Waller. Harley and Deadshot did well, but that's because of Robbie and Smith.

The only guy who gets killed off was Slipknot? Everybody else walks away free and clear? Oh, and ... holy crap, I forgot the guy's name. Fire dude. Aztec god tattoos everywhere fire dude.

You know who I mean.

Hopefully Gunn actually gives us some surprising deaths in the next Suicide Squad.

~~Sumac~~ · 02-13-2019, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm OK with no Harley in Suicide Squad 2. She overshadowed the whole first movie... kind of like how she overshadows the whole DCEU now.

Its more has to do with most other characters being ****** and unimpressive.

*MikeandRaph87* · 02-13-2019, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurtleTitan97

You mean Birds of Prey, right? Barbara has nothing to do with the Gotham City Sirens.

Its so many movie ideas bouncing around, it makes my jead spin. Yes, I mean Birds of Prey. Is it Batgirl vs Black Mask with Mr Zsasz or not? Sure other characters are involved, but that is eho I want to see.

~~Sumac~~ · 02-13-2019, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Its so many movie ideas bouncing around, it makes my jead spin. Yes, I mean Birds of Prey. Is it Batgirl vs Black Mask with Mr Zsasz or not? Sure other characters are involved, but that is eho I want to see.

I hope it won't be quasi-GRRRRL PWR movie, like Ghostbusters'16.

*Andrew NDB* · 02-27-2019, 09:33 PM

Will Smith said "hell naw."

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/w...ts-1203151442/

~~Leo656~~ · 02-27-2019, 10:06 PM

Imagine if ol' Floyd morphed into a white guy offscreen between movies, the way Harvey Dent did between "Batman Returns" and "Batman Forever"? That'd be hilarious.

*Autbot_Benz* · 02-27-2019, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Imagine if ol' Floyd morphed into a white guy offscreen between movies, the way Harvey Dent did between "Batman Returns" and "Batman Forever"? That'd be hilarious.

as long as its not Tommy Lee Jones cackling like an idiot as Deadshot I would be fine with it

~~Leo656~~ · 02-27-2019, 10:21 PM

Oh, lord, that was crummy indeed. And I generally like Tommy Lee Jones. But that was a terrible performance.

Thank goodness for Aaron Eckhart, for all of ten goddamn minutes. That entire subplot should have been the third movie where it could actually breathe, and the trilogy should have ended by hammering home the "...live long enough to become the villain" metaphor. Or something. I don't know. I really like the first two Nolan Bat-flicks, and the third I like parts of a lot and some parts not at all. And I really think Two-Face deserved much more space, what with what an amazing job they did with him.

*Andrew NDB* · 02-27-2019, 10:52 PM

I thought for sure Two-Face survived TDK. No way he died in that 15 foot drop.

02-02-2019, 12:04 PM	#24
MikeandRaph87 Jedi Master Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters Posts: 11,189	Sure, I dont need smpathy for The Riddler nor do I want it. Mr. Freeze, my second favorite, yes. I just dont like Riddler being 1. a serial killer (only should want to murder Batman) and 2. clearly driven by a compulsion not insane. I find it insulting to the character to be placed in Arkham Asylum. We are getting off-topic. Who is returning in Suicid Squad? They brought in a villain even I never heard of to kill off then there is Captain Boomerang and The Bat Rogues with Rick Flagg. __________________ Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!

02-02-2019, 12:55 PM	#26
MikeandRaph87 Jedi Master Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters Posts: 11,189	I have read and own the 1989 Secret Origins comic posted above. While Harvey and Oswald's respectivevorigins were referred back to amd I know Penguin's added to, Nashton was used to break the fourth wall to refer to the made for tv villains from Batman'66 all the while hiding out in the city dump. War of Jokes and Riddles where he killed Kite-Man's son in a convulted plan to make The Joker laugh? WHAT? Sure, the demon possessed Riddler or the venomized Riddler in back to back Riddler appearances are fine, excused, and work with Eddie as a conduit. There is just no excuse for hack writers making The Riddler a cold blooded killer. Certain ones should kill sparringly and he is one of them. Penguin should order kills, Mr. Freeze should only if it pertains to preserving the life of his wife Catwoman should avoid it altogether giving her a purity that can draw Bruce to her. __________________ Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!

02-03-2019, 04:58 PM	#27
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I agree with a good bit of that, for sure. I'm never a fan of "It's just a new interpretation" excuse when they dramatically change things about a character. There's absolutely a line as to how far you can go before it's not the same character anymore. And I don't think it's that hard to figure out, most of the time. There's no skill or craft in taking a B-List or C-list villain and tacking on a bodycount to "modernize" them. That's the epitome of lazy, hack writing. I liked that story where Riddler was possessed; as you said, that made a bit more sense and still didn't betray the character. It was a good one-off story. I forget, what was the name of it? I know I have at least part of it somewhere, but I can't get into my Batman boxes right now. ------------ EDIT: Nevermind, you answered my question in the other thread. "Dark Knight, Dark City" was on the tip of my tongue, but I didn't wanna misspeak. Last edited by Leo656; 02-03-2019 at 05:08 PM.

02-13-2019, 11:45 AM	#28
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy Annalist Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 16,435	https://www.comicbookmovie.com/birds...movies-a166441 Weird times to live in. No Harley in Suicide Squad 2, even though she was arguably one of the best parts in it. But she's shoehorned into Birds of Prey with no Barbara Gordon and a really unathletic and ugly-looking Cassandra Cain. And nobody wants to do Gotham City Sirens. I get why nobody wants to bring back Jared Leto, but I think erasing the "Damaged" tattoo and reining him in a bit more on set could have given us something really special. If, of course, he'd actually been the villain in the first movie. Really, for every sensible movie choice the DCEU makes, they follow it up with about a hand's worth of questionable choices. I really gotta stop caring about this $hit. __________________ *ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED*

02-13-2019, 12:29 PM	#29
MikeandRaph87 Jedi Master Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters Posts: 11,189	Wait...Gotham Sirens does not have Barbara Gordon in it? I was sold on getting Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz,but if there is not Barbara Gordon no sale for me! __________________ Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!

02-02-2019, 11:17 AM	#21
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Nah, just curious brother. I've met a lot of people who like the Riddler but honestly haven't had anyone tell me he's their specific favorite. Just wondering what made him stand out for you, and I do believe I have an answer. I'm a bit silly in that I prefer the old spandex gimmick versus the suit and derby hat, myself. Can't quite explain why, just is what it is. I thought the Hush twist was quite interesting, but it felt like they could've taken it a bit farther than they did before he lost his memory eventually. They actually did that with Lex not long after, having him figure out Clark was Superman and then they had him forget about it without actually doing anything of substance with it. I feel like sometimes these guys fall in love with these "Shocking Final-Page Reveals!" and don't actually have a follow-up plan, and then if nobody comes up with one in a couple of months they just sweep it under the rug. Frustrating.

02-02-2019, 11:51 AM	#23
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Well, full disclosure, I'm never concerned with whether or not I sympathize with a villain. I don't particularly want to. They're bad guys. It's nice if I can understand their motivations but it's by no means necessary. It's nice sometimes, though. Like with Lex, for example. It's become fashionable in recent years to humanize him, despite everything from the 80s through the early-2000s establishing that he's literally worse than Satan (or Neron, as the case may be). "If I ever HAD a soul, I lost it a long time ago", and all that. The more writers try and make him "someone the reader can relate to", the more they're getting it incorrect, as far as I'm concerned. Now obviously Riddler isn't anywhere in that area, I was just making a general point about villains in general. AND "truthishly", one of my favorite comics of all time includes a very, VERY good Riddler story that is indeed very sympathetic. Some even say it's the BEST Riddler story. I'unno about that necessarily, but it's written by Neal Gaiman, of all people, so of course it's quite good. And despite what I literally just said above, part of why the book excels is indeed because of how it puts each of the villains in a sympathetic light, moreso than they'd ever been portrayed as up to that point. I'm sure you've seen THIS one before, haven't you? That entire book is FANTASTIC, by the way, and worth tracking down at any price, as it contains what I will forever consider the "definitive" origins of Penguin, Riddler, and Two-Face. It's become somewhat highly-prized and somewhat expensive, due to it containing the VERY first appearance of the Joker after he murdered Jason Todd, so it was quite the hot book when it was fresh. Must-read for any Batman fan. I personally can't ever put any of the characters' other origin tales above the ones presented in this book. These are the Real Deal, the rest is fanfic. When you read and compare, it's easy to see why. The Riddler one is the midpoint comic relief, while the Penguin and Two-Face tales are rather dark, but the whole book is balanced very well. Highest Possible Recommendation and a bargain at any price for Bat-Fans.

02-02-2019, 12:24 PM	#25
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I'm not even sure I want him trying to kill Batman. Nashton's never been a bloodthirsty guy, and only ever interested in matching wits in a bid to prove his mental superiority. At least until more recent years, anyway. The very first time I read a story where Riddler was openly trying to kill anyone - especially Batman - I'm like "Where'd they find this hack writer?" That's not who the character is. It's plainly just done because they ran out of ideas for him, and I find that lazy. He's a little more unique than all that. Like, the Venom-infused "Jigsaw" ripoff in the TellTale Batman games? Neat character, well-done, but NOT the Riddler. Then again, everyone in those games was OOC as hell. Anyways, I take thread topics as suggestions. I've got not a whole lot to say about Squad 2 at this point, myself.

02-13-2019, 12:32 PM	#31
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,558	I'm OK with no Harley in Suicide Squad 2. She overshadowed the whole first movie... kind of like how she overshadows the whole DCEU now. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

02-27-2019, 09:33 PM	#36
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,558	Will Smith said "hell naw." https://variety.com/2019/film/news/w...ts-1203151442/ __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

02-27-2019, 10:06 PM	#37
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Imagine if ol' Floyd morphed into a white guy offscreen between movies, the way Harvey Dent did between "Batman Returns" and "Batman Forever"? That'd be hilarious.

02-27-2019, 10:21 PM	#39
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Oh, lord, that was crummy indeed. And I generally like Tommy Lee Jones. But that was a terrible performance. Thank goodness for Aaron Eckhart, for all of ten goddamn minutes. That entire subplot should have been the third movie where it could actually breathe, and the trilogy should have ended by hammering home the "...live long enough to become the villain" metaphor. Or something. I don't know. I really like the first two Nolan Bat-flicks, and the third I like parts of a lot and some parts not at all. And I really think Two-Face deserved much more space, what with what an amazing job they did with him.

02-27-2019, 10:52 PM	#40
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,558	I thought for sure Two-Face survived TDK. No way he died in that 15 foot drop. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]