Eastman Interview. The Franchise should lean more on its gritter roots

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Problem is, I see that more from the Mirage fans than anyone else. I came in during the fw era. I learned to like Next Mutation. I learned to love the movies. I learned to love 4kids. I learned to tolerate 2k12 because of IT'S MANY flaws. I learned to appreciate Mirage and Archie for what they did. And I absolutely love Batman/TMNT.

Mirage fans seem to mostly be stuck in Mirage only mode and can't appreciate much else.

That's true, many of them are like that, but I'd argue theirs is at root still a noble cause.

If TMNT wasn't created to be "a little kids' thing" - and it absolutely was not - seeing it be forevermore forced down that path, and furthermore, to see so many people wholeheartedly insist that "That's the RIGHT way to do it! That's the way it SHOULD be done!" must be absolutely maddening for some people.

They're not explicitly trying to ruin anyone's fun, they're simply pleading for a return to what the roots of the franchise are - indeed, what it WAS created to be before Playmates got their dirty little hooks into it.

People on either side can take their point of view too far, sure. But the fact is, TMNT really wasn't created to be a silly little romp for the kiddies, and that ANY version of it that presents itself in such a manner is fundamentally a bastardization of the original concept. In a word, it is heresy. It doesn't matter if a lot of people like it that way, they're entitled to their opinion but the fact remains it's a perversion of the creators' original intent. And that's not cool. People can enjoy said perversion, but that doesn't make it any less so.

What those purists want more than anything, is simply to have SOME part of the franchise retain some of its original integrity. And I can't find any fault with that even if at times their approach is intolerant and heavy-handed. Their hearts are still, ultimately, in the right place. The FW apologists? "I like it this way because it reminds me of the safe, warm and fuzzy feelings I got when I watched it age 6" seems a lot less noble, to me. It really is just sentimentality run amok.

I mean, Mirage to me is as dry as rice crackers. On any given day, I'd probably rather watch an episode of FW than read through a handful of Mirage books. But at the same time, I know which stylistic approach is altogether better for the long-term health of the franchise, as well as which approach entices a better class of "fan". We really don't need any more children OR manchildren attaching themselves to this franchise, "elitist" as it may be to say so out loud.

The children, "thankfully", don't really like TMNT anyway and quit on it after a few minutes because it's not their thing. The true median age of the "real" TMNT fan is 30-something. That said, to start leaning more towards that demographic's sensibilities can only be the right thing to do. I don't see why a certain group of people push back against that idea so hard... other than, that's not the thing that gave them warm fuzzies when they were little.

And that's fine, but some people actually did grow up, and are beyond sick to death of being ignored or told their vote doesn't count.

We all had our childhood. And it's nice to revisit it fondly. I do that every day with something or other. BUT, it also was supposed to have ended a long time ago and still living there in that same exact headspace is ultimately detrimental. Time to move forward, time to move on.

Time to let some of those things we loved as kids grow up WITH us, when applicable.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Mirage fans seem to mostly be stuck in Mirage only mode and can't appreciate much else.

So what? Are they supposed to feel guilty about that? Mirage stuff is very different from everything else it generated. It is not so weird to appreciate Mirage and to not care about the rest.

[AquaParade]

Mirage is my favorite but I'm open to all interpretations that aren't primarily focused on selling toys.

[Leo656]

I mean, I don't have a huge PROBLEM with selling toys. Most of what I own is toys, I love toys. And if ever a concept did lend itself wholesale to the selling of plastic trinkets, TMNT most certainly at a glance seems a perfect fit.

I just feel like there can and should be a raison d'etre beyond Just That. You can have that. But man, they BEEN had that, dawg.

When the One Group ALWAYS gets their way, it can be a little frustrating for those who want something else.

[AquaParade]

Toys are awesome. I should clarify that I am just speaking in terms of storytelling mediums. And further, I am fine with cartoons that are made to primarily sell toys, as they help keep the franchise afloat. I'm just generally not interested in watching them anymore.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's true, many of them are like that, but I'd argue theirs is at root still a noble cause.

Time to let some of those things we loved as kids grow up WITH us, when applicable.

I can understand that. and that's one reason why I loved Batman/TMNT, because it was a bit of a darker take and shredder was allowed to kill and be serious while still being fun. Hell, in the first episode of 4kids, he kills a purple dragon off/on screen and laughs. that was a great shock right there.

I can understand the reason WHY mirage fans push back against all else. but to say something isn't good, or doesn't stand the test of time just because you think it shouldn't exist..you can't see how that feels stagnant?

But, all in all I agree. I think it's time for a darker take on TMNT again. but not TOO dark that it looses it's fun and heart. The FW elements where pushed beyond their limits with 2k12 and it sort of didn't fit in that show.
the two don't always work well together.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I don't see why being too dark is a problem for any other version to do. Some versions will be darker than others. It works for Batman.

[Leo656]

My biggest problem is, there only seems to be room at the table for ONE version of TMNT at any given time. It's not like with Batman where you can have a PG-rated (or G-rated) cartoon show on TV, a PG-13 movie and an R-rated comic book all happening at the same time. Part of Batman's enduring appeal absolutely lies in the fact that at any given time, you can have your pick of ALL of that. If you only had ONE of those things available at a time, the appeal shrinks exponentially.

Too often, "kiddie-style" TMNT is ALL there is, so it makes it even more frustrating when people insist over and over again that that's all they need. Not everybody agrees with that, dammit!

I definitely wouldn't want everything to be "Bodycount". But I'd have a lot more patience with the kiddie stuff if it weren't the only dish being re-heated and served, over and over and OVER again.

I've said this before, but part of why TMNT hasn't reached the popularity of something like Batman, and likely won't become as enduring, is because there's this stubborn refusal to let it TRULY become an "all-ages" property. There's nothing for the older fans, most of the time. That's self-defeating.

I've banged this drum before, but if WB had bought the property, things would be completely different right now. One need only look at their He-Man comics by DC to see how far they'd be willing to go. Under them, we could very well have had a G-rated cartoon show, an R-rated or PG-13 comic book (or even several different books aimed at various age groups accordingly) and a PG-13 movie (or even an R-rated one) all out at the same time. They do that ALL the time with their various brands. They made an R-rated movie with Superman in it! Now, some of those products aren't to everyone's personal taste, but don't misread my point. My point is simply that if WB owned TMNT, there definitely, definitely would not be some "It has to be Kids' Stuff ALL The Time" mandate in place, and that would ultimately serve everyone much better than what we have right now.

Instead, it got bought by Nick, who ONLY makes kiddie stuff. Right there, 80% of your audience is being ignored because "They're not who we market to."

That's terrible. I knew from the start it would come to this. I'm not clairvoyant, but it doesn't take a mind reader to see that when your brand-holder only cares about selling toys to 5-year olds, you're simply never going to get anything that aims outside that demographic. That's limiting, that's self-defeating, that's shortsighted... it's just plain not how things should ever be done.

There's enough stuff you can do with TMNT to truly and try and aim it at EVERYONE. Problem is... "They" don't see it that way, and outright refuse to even try.

[Vegita-San]

Again, I agree.

Nick is FAR too limiting in what they are willing to do. but at the same time, that is why I am shocked that 2K12 was allowed to go as far as they did, and Batman/TMNT happened at all.

But, on the other hand, Rise shows exactly why Nick isn't the right fit for TMNT.

At least 98% of us can agree on that.

I don't know if WB would have done better. But, I feel like they have more experience in a property like TMNT than nick does, and could have had a better team on it from the start. plus, the possible WB/TMNT crossovers with Superman and Batman heh.

Although, at the same time, with all the DC properties, it might be why they didn't feel the need to add tmnt to the mix.

[AquaParade]

Leo, you're so right.

All we can do is speak with our dollars, unless we are about to start a Snyder-Cut type movement. When speaking with our dollars, I don't think it's enough to just cut off the things we aren't interested in, but we have to support the bones they do occasionally throw us.

Which is why I really think The Last Ronin is a good chance for older fans to send up an "SOS" to Viacom. Sure, the comic book medium is small potatoes, but the book is making a splash that's hard to ignore at this point. It has some momentum and there aren't too many opportunities to show support for this stuff. It would be ideal for Viacom to be forced to acknowledge the success of The Last Ronin at the same time "Rise..." is a smoldering heap in the background. That has to send a message.

TMNT should be treated with the same nuance and care that the DC franchises benefit from. I suppose WB has the confidence to let these characters go dark places because they have been around for so long. TMNT is up there now. The humongous fan base has aged and maintained interest. The franchise has proven it can take a beating and get back up. It really should be stretching it's wings.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I'm definitely going to buy The Last Ronin, whenever it comes out.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

I don't know if WB would have done better. But, I feel like they have more experience in a property like TMNT than nick does, and could have had a better team on it from the start. plus, the possible WB/TMNT crossovers with Superman and Batman heh.

Although, at the same time, with all the DC properties, it might be why they didn't feel the need to add tmnt to the mix.

I feel like they would by default have HAD to have done better, simply because WB and DC understand that their brands truly are "all-ages" and work hard to hit EVERY available demographic. They know preschoolers love Batman. They know teenagers love Batman. They know there are still people who've been reading Batman for over 50 years. And on any given day, ALL of those people get their pick of any number of products aimed at Them. And they can also partake of or ignore the others at their leisure. Everybody Wins, ALL the time.

Sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss, sometimes they break even. But NOBODY can say that WB/DC doesn't know or understand how to provide variety across all age groups and demographics. They EXCEL at that. They even know that some things they publish simply don't belong in the same world as Superman and Batman, and keep them in their own "sandbox" most of the time.

That's what I would hope/expect of a DC-owned TMNT comic. I honestly think they'd do it like He-Man, and keep it set in its own universe and only "crossing over" rarely, if ever. There was the "Injustice" cross-over, which was... odd... but aside from that it's not like He-Man and Superman are a "tag team" and pop up in each others' books often or anything. The only thing they really share is a publisher. Sure, they'd inevitably cross-over for some big "event", but like He-Man, I have to believe that it would only be done sparingly at most. They know that's not what people wanna see, by and large.

But anything would be better than "Kiddie Sh*t or Nothing (except for the comic books we only make a pittance on, anyway)", which is the unspoken rule Right Now.

We'll see if "Ronin" is just a bone or the start of something bigger. One can hope it's the latter.

[AquaParade]

Whether The Last Ronin becomes something more will, again, depend on how much money it makes. If all we do is complain about the stuff we don't like, they won't care.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Well, I mean now we're hitting gray areas. All of those things can be and are objectively true but it doesn't mean the show(s) themselves weren't entertaining Then or can't still be to some Now.

For starters, yes, ALL of those things are true, it was a very flawed show. BUT, it wasn't just par for the course among shows of its day, it was inarguably a lot better than MOST of the cartoons in the pre-Batman: TAS era. Like let's be completely honest, what other 1980s cartoons were "better" than TMNT before the Batman cartoon came along and changed the game entirely? I honestly can't think of many, and you know I'm not afraid to call the TMNT cartoon out for what it is. And I don't think it's at all fair to just wave a dismissive hand and say, like, "Cartoons just plain sucked before Batman came along and 'fixed' everything." That's MOSTLY true, but it's also not entirely fair.

I mean, playing devil's advocate, I absolutely prefer "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" over FW TMNT as far as what I'd rather watch on a given day, but is it better-done? Debatable. There aren't anywhere near as many errors as in TMNT, because Filmation ran a pretty tight ship on that side of things, but it was definitely made on the cheap and some people can't handle all the stock footage and re-used animation cycles. It doesn't bother ME, but to many it's a flaw. And out of 130 episodes produced in a two-year cycle, some of them were definitely clunkers. As bad as "Mr. Ogg" on the TMNT side of things? Probably not. But there's a case to be made that while some episodes absolutely sparkle, others were not "well-written". That show, like many 1980s cartoons, is an example of the Whole being far greater then The Sum of Its Parts.

MOTU, Voltron, Transformers, G.I. Joe... all of those shows are still "iconic" but also very, very flawed. They're full of things that are objectively "bad" or done poorly, but is it fair to call them "bad shows"? I don't think so, I really think a person needs to grade on a curve because even the very best of that crop falls way, way short of what cartoon standards would become even 5 years later in a post-Batman world. Obviously they're imperfect, because standards were SO much looser back then, but they've all obviously "stood the test of time" because millions of people still enjoy them, even those who can clearly see the strings and Scotch tape holding them together.

To be perfectly honest, even though there are several cartoons from that era which I personally like better, it's very hard for me to think of one that was truly "better" or better-made than TMNT until Batman came along. The best I can come up with is the early seasons of "The Real Ghostbusters". That was probably the best cartoon show ever made until Batman insofar as quality of the scripts/writing, lack of editing and continuity errors, and the other things you cite as being able to judge and grade by. But even then, you can only really say that about the early couple of seasons, as once Slimer became the central focus the entire thing fell in the trash. So nothing is perfect. But yeah, as far as "Were any 1980s cartoons truly any better than TMNT?", RGB is all I can think of. And even with that show, the animation was a little stiff.

Point being, I think it's just not fair to say "If something was objectively never good, it can't possibly have stood the test of time" because that kind of statement ignores the fact that standards were a whole lot lower back then. The only fair thing to do is compare those things to their contemporaries and not what came after. Part of why Batman: TAS was the complete revelation that it was, was because people simply didn't try that hard ever before. After that, there was a rising tide in which everyone who made cartoons was expected to step their game up. But even with that, it took until the end of the 90s for that to become a universal standard. There were still a ton of 1990s cartoons that were written and executed more like late-80s cartoons.

I'unno, I think you get what I'm saying. Grading on a curve is necessary when discussing things of a bygone era, and it's not fair to say that they "Couldn't have stood the test of time" simply because they were laid down on a cracked foundation. Especially since tons of people do still enjoy those things without irony.

MY problem becomes, when people either dismiss or ignore those flaws entirely as in pretending they never existed, or act like anyone who doesn't still love those things Now as much as they did Then is some kind of Big Meanie out to spoil everyone's fun. "I loved it Then so I love it Now and I don't need any reason other than 'I loved it Then', that's good enough for me" IS rather childish in and of itself, but it depends on how far you're willing to take it. If a person just wants to enjoy that thing, then that's fine. If they start saying, "I want EVERYTHING to be like this because it's what I personally like," then they're no different from the Big Meanies.

In the case of TMNT, staying locked into the FW tone and style for everything would only hasten the brand's demise. Not only has it been done and RE-done, but too many people have been waiting impatiently for the brand to "grow up" already, and outside of the 1990 movie and the first couple seasons of 4Kids, it simply was never "allowed" to, and we can see how that hurts the brand in the way that every new "kid-centric" version that comes out gets a worse reception, and is ignored more quickly, than the last. We've seen how "the new kids" that are supposedly the audience simply don't stick around anymore, and how each new version pushes away a few more adults.

"Well, *I* like it silly and goofy, so I want ALL of it silly and goofy. SO HUH." That's MY problem with some people. They don't care one bit that they're sending the brand they claim to love directly into the sh*tter by refusing to see why that approach is flawed and that their opinion isn't the only one that matters. The cartoons, the IDW comics... "*I* like this approach, so if you don't like it, go screw." Opinions are one thing, but when the approach you love so much is actively and openly pushing people AWAY from the brand... well, at the very least, it only makes sense to consider changing course before it's too late.

I get the "loose standards" argument and the "iconic" argument, I really do. I just don't quite think they're all that appropriate to use when arguing wheter or not the show works on it's own merits, they're better used for arguing the show's place in pop culture or the larger franchise. Arguments like "It's the most well known and popular version so you have to respect it!" annoy the hell out out me, not just because it implies appeal to popularity, but more because it just represents a complete failure to actually defend the show based on what it is on it's own.

There is a minimum standard for what be expected for just about anything, no matter how small the budget or short on time it is. One might accept that the characters barely move a muscle, or a somewhat flimsy plot, or a little visual error that you'll miss if you blink, it's not a good thing that those happen but at the very least it might get overlooked rather easily. What shouldn't be expected is to have errors like an arm vanishing for a second, having the characters constantly act on information they shouldn't have or literally use like five still frames to stand in for a minute of missing animation.

The main problem I have with the Fred Wolf show is not that it is goofy or meant for kids, it's that it fails so often to meet even the most basic expections I would have of anything.

[Leo656]

I'm curious. Do you just not like any pre-Batman cartoon shows at all, then? Just asking.

I mean, to call a spade a spade, before that Batman show nobody on either side really gave a sh*t. "Cartoons were for little kids", and "Little kids don't notice or care", and that was that. There was like a mutual understanding that nobody was expected to Aim High. And again, MOST of those shows were a whole lot worse than Ninja Turtles in every single category.

I have a ton of problems with FW TMNT, but I also have to admit that in its time, it was miles ahead of just about everything else. That's why it became "iconic" to an entire generation while "C.O.P.S." is mostly forgotten and ignored, for example. You can't become so entrenched in the zeitgeist if you have NO value whatsoever. Lots and lots of shows of that era were "just" toy commercials of questionable merit, but most of them are almost entirely forgotten.

I agree, a thing should be able to stand on more than just its reputation, but I'd also argue that FW TMNT does that, to a point. Nothing "better" really existed before it, and it took something like Batman: TAS to dethrone it. That's already a pretty lofty bar. And it's not like we were all asleep at the wheel as we watched it. It definitely, to a point, earned its reputation by being legitimately ahead of its contemporaries. To say otherwise is a bit unfair. It pretty much smoked everything else at the time, and that's a simple statement of fact.

I do agree, though, that when pressed as to why they STILL like it, or why "Everything should be like FW", most people can't say much more than "I liked it when I was 6", or "It's the only TMNT most people care about" and that's very annoying. And even though I'm sort of "defending" it here, I definitely think it had its time and place and it's not "my" TMNT at all anymore, and if it were put in the ground and had cement poured over it, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I think in the long run, it did more harm than good by keeping the very idea of TMNT locked into people's minds as a "kids' thing". And that's a hard thing to forget or forgive.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I do agree, though, that when pressed as to why they STILL like it, or why "Everything should be like FW", most people can't say much more than "I liked it when I was 6", or "It's the only TMNT most people care about" and that's very annoying. And even though I'm sort of "defending" it here, I definitely think it had its time and place and it's not "my" TMNT at all anymore, and if it were put in the ground and had cement poured over it, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I think in the long run, it did more harm than good by keeping the very idea of TMNT locked into people's minds as a "kids' thing". And that's a hard thing to forget or forgive.

And there in lies the never ending argument's crux.

without FW, TMNT would have been forgotten about. It was WAY too dark and basic to make it as anything other than a comic book, and probably would not have lasted past issue 30. If it came out now, it'd be a different story, but not back then.

And this is probably another reason why the mirager's hate everything else. as well as the reason why tmnt gets stuck in the kiddie corner so much that nick buys it.

I get all that argumentation. but, to say that the original show can't stand on it's own, or didn't have some kind of quality to it is laughable.
You try producing something that takes 6 months for one episode on the schedule they where under, and try not to have something go wrong. it would have been next to impossible.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

without FW, TMNT would have been forgotten about. It was WAY too dark and basic to make it as anything other than a comic book, and probably would not have lasted past issue 30. If it came out now, it'd be a different story, but not back then.

Y e a h but it's equally true that the Batman comics were about to be cancelled before the Adam West show came out, and that the show "saved" Batman and made him more popular than ever before. BUT, at the same time, when the winds shifted everyone recognized that it was time to let the past be The Past and go in a different direction. The comics of the 1970s weren't in any way beholden to the TV show from the 1960s, nor were the comics or the iconic film of the 1980s.

Point of fact, the Batman movie was in fact predicted to be a spectacular failure upon its announcement, because it was ASSUMED by everyone sight-unseen that it was simply going to be a redux of the Adam West show. And by 1987, nobody - NOBODY - wanted that kind of thing anymore. WB were in such a panic that they had to rush out an unfinished rough trailer with no score almost a year in advance of release, just to calm everyone down and say "Look, LOOK! It's not silly! See? It's for grown-ups!" And after that, everything was fine. We all know what happened after that. Before the movie, people were like "Man, it'd be awesome if Batman was ever as popular as he was in '66, but that'll never happen." And then the character's popularity after the '89 movie reached far, FAR greater heights than even the TV show had allowed for. But they'd have never pulled that off if they felt like they HAD to recreate the Adam West show in movie form, just because that show WAS once upon a time the most popular and remembered version of Batman. They knew they had to make a hard left turn, and it brought them untold riches and rewards. Everybody won pretty big on that deal, not least of all THE FANS.

Point being, while one interpretation of A Thing may in fact be responsible for bringing that thing to previously-unforeseen heights of popularity, you can't expect to squeeze that same tit forever. You have to evolve, you have to adapt... you HAVE to move on.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm curious. Do you just not like any pre-Batman cartoon shows at all, then? Just asking.

I mean, to call a spade a spade, before that Batman show nobody on either side really gave a sh*t. "Cartoons were for little kids", and "Little kids don't notice or care", and that was that. There was like a mutual understanding that nobody was expected to Aim High. And again, MOST of those shows were a whole lot worse than Ninja Turtles in every single category.

I have a ton of problems with FW TMNT, but I also have to admit that in its time, it was miles ahead of just about everything else. That's why it became "iconic" to an entire generation while "C.O.P.S." is mostly forgotten and ignored, for example. You can't become so entrenched in the zeitgeist if you have NO value whatsoever. Lots and lots of shows of that era were "just" toy commercials of questionable merit, but most of them are almost entirely forgotten.

I agree, a thing should be able to stand on more than just its reputation, but I'd also argue that FW TMNT does that, to a point. Nothing "better" really existed before it, and it took something like Batman: TAS to dethrone it. That's already a pretty lofty bar. And it's not like we were all asleep at the wheel as we watched it. It definitely, to a point, earned its reputation by being legitimately ahead of its contemporaries. To say otherwise is a bit unfair. It pretty much smoked everything else at the time, and that's a simple statement of fact.

I do agree, though, that when pressed as to why they STILL like it, or why "Everything should be like FW", most people can't say much more than "I liked it when I was 6", or "It's the only TMNT most people care about" and that's very annoying. And even though I'm sort of "defending" it here, I definitely think it had its time and place and it's not "my" TMNT at all anymore, and if it were put in the ground and had cement poured over it, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I think in the long run, it did more harm than good by keeping the very idea of TMNT locked into people's minds as a "kids' thing". And that's a hard thing to forget or forgive.

The first three seasons of the Simpsons pre-date Batman TAS and since you mentioned Voltron at one point, I guess anime like Macross counts. Lots of animated movies, such as the Little Mermaid, as well. If we're gonna be a little more strict and say only TV-shows made for children and from countries west of Soviet, south of Indonesia and east of Japan... There's actually a couple of French things I like, such as Tintin, I would consider well made. And on the American side I guess we have Ducktales and Rescue Rangers. This is of course going by the metric of well made and not just "do I like it?", because I think I already made that distinction.

There is course stuff I like that isn't exactly good, the only good part about the Heavy Metal movie is the soundtrack and (arguably) the animation, but I still like it despite being a total mess. It's just that here we're talking about a show I don't like and is blatantly flawed. It's correct that the Fred Wolf show is better than Transformers G1, GI Joe, He-Man or a bunch of other contemporary cartoons.

Spoiler:

(Although the truth is that's actually more contempory with BTAS, as seasons 6-8 aired parallel with it's entire run, actually outlasting it by almost two years. So the more you think about it, it is kind of weird to instead compare the quality of FW with Transformers and He-Man when those shows actually ended before it even started.)

It's just that I don't think that is enough to give it a pass. Just because you weren't expected to well, doesn't mean you shouldn't try as hard as possible.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

It's correct that the Fred Wolf show is better than... He-Man...

I swear to GOD that I will hit my finish on you.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I swear to GOD that I will hit my finish on you.

Fine geesh, they're.... What's the answer that will prevent me from experiencing harm?