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02-26-2021, 05:52 PM
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#101 | |
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Foot Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,009
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I would trust him to feed us a lot of member berries for previous Superman movies and maybe that is what is needed. A palette cleanser after the previous version just didn't capture the public imagination but a daring and thoughtful new take new franchise is not in his wheel house. |
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02-26-2021, 06:10 PM
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#102 |
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Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Moviegoers don't even want a "daring and thoughtful" interpretation of the character. They got that - one that was closer to the comics than any other version ever has been or likely ever will be - and they rejected it.
I travel in a lot of circles where people profess to love and be experts on Superman. They're not, they watched one or two old (and overrated) movies and a kids' cartoon and thus SAY they're "experts", but whatever, that's their prerogative. In any case, they and other people are often incredibly vocal about what they want from a Superman movie. Movie audiences ONLY want Chris Reeve Redux. That's it. That's ALL they want or will ever accept from a Superman movie. They'd rather have his head Deepfaked onto a stunt guy than an actual actor. John Williams score. Corny jokes and kittens in trees. That's it, that's all. A Superman movie that is NOT Exactly That, has no hope of succeeding at the box office or with critics. I don't like that. Frankly, as much as I loved those movies as a kid, I've come to strongly resent them for becoming the "FW TMNT" of the Superman franchise, trapping the character in amber and making it impossible for anything different (or BETTER) to come along and be accepted, because people blinded by their own nostalgia just "Nope" it by default. I'll always respect those movies for what they did in elevating the genre as well as the character in the public consciousness... but frankly, I kind of hate them now. Like I'd rather watch MoS another hundred times before ever watching Donner's movie again even once. "Dated" isn't even the word for it. BUT, it's what "everybody" loves, and the only thing they'll accept. There's people out there who want a Black Superman, sure... but most of those people aren't Superman fans. Whenever this idea has come up in actual fan circles, they puke on it. This is just the most cynical and blatant type of pandering, and entirely predictable. They feel like they've "tried everything", so now they just want some of that "Get Out" money. But yeah, this isn't gonna work. And a "daring and thoughtful new take" isn't going to work, because we've already seen that fail. NO Superman movie that doesn't star Deepfake Chris Reeve backed by a John Williams Score has a hope in Hell of being acclaimed or making money. These people will tell you as much if you ask them. "Why can't they just copy the Reeve movies down to the last detail?" It's non-stop, every time a movie idea gets floated. I don't claim those people, by the way. People can bitch all they want about MoS, it's the best Superman movie ever made and the best one we're ever going to get, period. To disagree is to simply be wrong. BUT, it's "not what they wanted", and neither is this. Here's what's gonna happen: This will under-perform (at best), WB will simply say "Modern audiences don't care about Superman", and then they just won't even attempt another Superman movie for the next 20-30 years. Mark it down, that's the reality. |
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02-26-2021, 06:20 PM
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#103 | |
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Mutant Tiger
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hialeah, Florida, USA
Posts: 14,165
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02-26-2021, 06:27 PM
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#104 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Except he's actually a very introspective character with a lot of depth and nuance. Things that the recent movies went into, because they're a huge part of who he is.
If people want "Santa Claus with a cape" because they're too juvenile to accept anything deeper than that, or that he's not a one-dimensional constantly-smiling cardboard cutout, that's their problem. It doesn't mean they're right. You of all people aren't allowed to speak at me about Superman. You're a known imbecile who likes terrible things. |
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02-26-2021, 06:48 PM
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#105 | |
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Mutant Tiger
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hialeah, Florida, USA
Posts: 14,165
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02-26-2021, 06:54 PM
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#106 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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You like the Worst Possible Version of every single thing you profess to like, which is why nobody takes you or your opinions seriously.
You're allowed to speak, and I'm allowed to call you out for speaking nonsense. Goes both ways! 'Merica. |
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02-26-2021, 06:57 PM
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#107 | |
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Mutant Tiger
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hialeah, Florida, USA
Posts: 14,165
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02-26-2021, 06:59 PM
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#108 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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 Your arms ain't long enough to box with God, homie.
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02-26-2021, 07:02 PM
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#109 |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,089
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you're both pretty angels....so..black superman..
this 'writer' needs to be called out for his stupid ass comments. https://youtu.be/duIxpPYR8sY |
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02-26-2021, 07:13 PM
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#110 |
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Mad Scientist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 2,253
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I must be the only one who appreciated Cavill's movies and never cared for the Reeve's ones.
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02-26-2021, 07:32 PM
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#111 | ||
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,009
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Quote:
I'm not so sure that people want the Donner movies regurgitated. For a long time fans dismissed them in the same way they dismiss the Adam West Batman series. Granted there's been a turnaround of opinion on the '66 Bats series I still don't think anyone wants that in a movie and I believe the same is true the Donner Supes movies. They basically got a literal followup to those movies in Superman Returns and audienced turned their noses up at that. Audiences not wanting a dour, joyless version of the DC characters doesn't mean you suddenly kiddy and campy. There is all sorts of different flavours in between. Quote:
1. The movie is completely faithful to the Superman mythos except for the detail that he's black and it's treated as completely unimportant. 2. They go more realistic and actually explore what African American Clark's life would be like and would the public would think if the most powerful man in the world was black and reinterpret the Superman mythos through that...much like Red Son reinterpreted Superman if he was a Russian and a communist. I don't think either of the above are end of the world scenarios except in the minds of people who make youtube shows ranting about SJWs. |
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02-26-2021, 07:44 PM
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#112 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Quote:
All I ever wanted was a Superman movie that represented the comics, and that's what "Man of Steel" was. The Reeve movies had heart but for budget reasons they weren't able to really do more than scratch the very surface of the character or the universe. I waited my whole life for a Superman movie that faithfully represented My Era of the comic book canon, the 1986-2005 era, and we got that, and I was happy with it. They can keep their "reinventions", the character doesn't NEED to be "reinvented" no matter how much they think it does. The material is already Right There, they just need to execute it properly. And they need to just give up the idea of a Superman movie making Batman Movie money, it simply isn't ever going to happen. I'm the biggest Superman fan in the world but even I recognize that most people either don't care or just plain hate the character. There's no reaching them, just accept that it's a niche character for a niche audience who actually likes Good Guys Who Are Good Guys, and accept that that concept isn't a billion-dollar box office type of character. No Superman movie will ever make a billion dollars, because movie audiences want anti-heroes, NOT "good guys". They need to stick to the comics, and stop aiming their sights too high. Last edited by Leo656; 02-26-2021 at 08:05 PM. |
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02-26-2021, 08:00 PM
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#113 |
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Weed Whacker
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Auburn, WA
Posts: 34,565
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If I was born before I was maybe the Reeve's ones would be more magical to me... but I grew up reading the John Byrne, Dan Jurgens, Roger Stern Superman comics and beyond a couple of quibbles, "Man of Steel" was largely the Superman movie I was waiting for.
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02-26-2021, 08:03 PM
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#114 | ||
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Quote:
The movies were quite simply about a guy who's determined to do "the right thing" in a world that doesn't accept altruism. A world that tears people down for being "good guys", and does everything short of trying to force them into being Bad Guys. That's the world we live in, so if people can't handle seeing that kind of a world onscreen then they can't handle looking in the mirror. And yet, he endures and perseveres. Even when people TELL him to stop, he refuses. As Lois points out before he's even Superman, "I don't think that (giving up helping people) is an option for you." When his mother tells him "You don't owe this world a thing", he visibly disagrees with that sentiment. And in the end, he gives his life to save a world that fears and hates him, a world that was openly telling him to STOP being Superman. And he did it all because it was the right thing to do. He wasn't "Superman" because it was easy, or because people threw him parades or lauded him for his heroism; he was "Superman" because it was hard and because only he could do it and because it needed to be done. The real heroes don't do it for the parades or the accolades, they do it because it's right. And when people tell them to quit, they don't. They persevere and endure. THAT is what those movies are about, and I'm very sorry that more people didn't recognize that simply because of a desaturated color palette and a subdued and melancholy musical score. If you seriously can't see the hope and triumph in that story, and all you see is "dourness and joylessness", then I'm sorry, you didn't watch it right. That might sound like a dick thing to say, but it's the truth. And if people would rather see a guy getting kittens out of trees because it makes them feel better about their own little selves, well, then they're pretty hopeless themselves. They don't want "Superman", they want a one-dimensional cardboard cutout devoid of human feelings aside from "Happy All The Time". Santa Claus With A Cape. I know that's what a lot of people want. But that isn't Superman. Once upon a time, maybe, when comics and super-heroes were aimed only at pleasing five-year olds, and being bland and safe was the name of the game. But those comics were terrible and that version of Superman was terrible. There weren't even ten issues of Superman written before 1986 that were worth reading for anything more than laughing at. That's not an opinion, that's an objective fact. You had "For the Man Who Has Everything", you had "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow", and then you had a ton of garbage. And I think it says a lot that only Alan freaking Moore was able to make Pre-Crisis Superman interesting and not a complete joke. Superman is an introspective character with a lot of pathos and drama inherent to his stories. It's about the guy with the hardest job in the universe trying to balance that with having a normal life when he knows he never can. It's about someone who forever walks the line between doing Too Much and Not Enough. If people don't want or like that, then they actually don't like Superman. And that's fine. But they shouldn't insist that they do and then claim to speak for everyone as to what's best for the character. They don't actually even know the character well enough to have such strong opinions. They watched one movie, a cartoon show, and set themselves up as expert caretakers of the character. That's not allowed. People who don't even know who Superman is aren't allowed to say "This is how it should be." They don't GET to do that. Quote:
And to people who don't know the comics and don't care, well... they don't deserve an opinion. |
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02-26-2021, 08:25 PM
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#115 | |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Speed Force
Posts: 7,043
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02-26-2021, 08:33 PM
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#116 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,619
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02-26-2021, 08:41 PM
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#117 |
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Annalist
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 16,435
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I'm still very disappointed that we couldn't just get a normal Man of Steel 2 and 3 with Brainiac or Parasite or Metallo. And a Lex Luthor who isn't autistic and twitchy.
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ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
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02-26-2021, 08:54 PM
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#118 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Quote:
The premise of "the focus being on the Man more than the Super" was illustrated repeatedly. People just needed to get over themselves and actually let themselves see what was on the screen in front of them. There's a REASON why he never calls himself "Superman" even once, except to say that it "was never real". He doesn't see himself as "Superman", he sees himself as "Clark." Whether or not the movies "failed the Kents" is a matter of opinion, but it's one I don't agree with. Jonathan quite clearly says that one day Clark is going to "change the world", but he also doesn't want him to try and do so until he's ready, because "the world isn't ready". And the world WASN'T ready, and that was more or less the entire point: Jon Kent was right. I mean, look at the world we live in; if Jesus Christ came back tomorrow, he'd be right back up on that cross by next weekend, because that's the world we live in. And when Martha says "You don't owe this world a thing," she was speaking as a mother who'd rather see their child happy more than anything. Any parent I know would let the whole world burn so long as their own kid was safe and happy. I saw nothing offsides in how the Kents were portrayed; they were just maybe more protective of their son than they're sometimes presented as being. But even THAT fit the concept Snyder was trying to put over, which is that Clark is Superman mostly because he WANTS to be, not because anyone TOLD him to be. Because "Superman" is the missing piece insofar as "What am I supposed to do with myself and these things I can do?" In a lot of other versions, it comes off like he does it because Jor-El told him to, or because Jon and Martha told him to; in this version, he takes their input but ultimately makes it his OWN decision to put on the cape and present himself to the world. And that's important; it's important that he have agency. Some people claim that Cavill's Superman was "too passive", but again, I have no idea what movies they watched; Cavill's Superman is constantly doing what HE wants to do, openly ignoring what other people say he ought to do. It's a VERY proactive version of the character. The entire point of BvS was that maybe he's TOO proactive; that was literally the entire plot. So yeah, I don't know. The things you personally profess to like best were all right there in the movies quite clearly. Like, they went out of their way to present those themes. Perhaps you simply need to see it again and look closer. "Too dark" is a matter of opinion, but one can't honestly say that those themes and ideas weren't presented in the movies; they were. |
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02-26-2021, 09:24 PM
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#119 |
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Annalist
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 16,435
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As a parent, I think I've grown less antagonistic towards Man of Steel's portrayal of Pa Kent.
Yeah, I'd be a monster if it meant saving my kid or keeping him alive. Screw the rest of you. I think my only problems are Pa Kent dying to save the family dog (come on, man!) and too much CGI overload with the World Engine. It's been a couple of years since I last watched it, though, so it's high time I rewatch it and see if my opinion has even further softened.  But my opinion ain't changing on Jesse Eisenberg Lex Luthor or the entire portrayal of Batfleck in Batman V Superman. (Ben Affleck played an amazing Batman, just poorly written.) My $0.02.
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ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
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02-26-2021, 10:00 PM
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#120 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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He also rescued a little girl. So yeah, you need to watch the movie again.
There was the dog. But it was more about the little girl. A LOT of people would do well to watch it again. Most won't, but they ought to. I openly admit, the first time I saw it I gave it a solid B to B- and my feelings were very mixed. My wife hated it. But we watched it again when the Blu-ray came out, and by the third time, it was both of our favorite Superman movie. By several miles. It's definitely not the only movie that has too much going on to be fully taken in with just one viewing, there's a ton of films like that, but it is a very prominent example of such. It's very layered, and presents more of itself the more you watch it. I've seen it more than most but I notice something new each time. I like that. Now, some people are very openly "I watch a movie exactly Once and that's it," but I never have and never will understand that. It's their prerogative, but I think it's dumb most of the time. I mean, sometimes yeah, if it's like super terrible like Chickbusters or BayTurtles, then even watching it once is too many times, but most things - movies, books, songs, games, etc. - get better, not worse, upon multiple experiences. And very few people would only listen to a song or play a game One Time. But with movies, a ton of people are "one and done" even if they like something they watched. And that's very strange, to me. Anyways, yeah, you would do well to watch it again. Once a viewer gets over the What Happened, they're better-positioned to let the Why It Happened sink in deeper, and then things make a lot more sense and sit better. Too many people watched that movie and couldn't get over being smacked in the face with how different it was from their own expectations for X and Y. "I'd expect Pa Kent to say this and not that; I'd expect the music to sound like This and not That," and all that kind of thing. But once you just let all of that go and really just watch it, knowing what's coming in advance and being more at peace with it, you start to notice more things. Literal things, symbolic things, metaphorical things. And that's pretty cool. Some people also hate (or don't recognize) symbolism or metaphor or allegory - and again, that's their prerogative - but that's a ton of what that movie is. So 1. If a person ain't into that, they probably didn't care for the movie in general, and 2. Even if a person IS into that, they're not gonna catch all of it in one or two viewings of the movie, there's simply too much going on. Feel free to email me about it later, you and I always have great conversations about this kinda thing. Free of all the rabble, of course. Your Batman opinion is bluntly terrible, though. That's exactly what a Batman who's been fighting a losing battle for 20 years and saw his kid sidekick get murdered would behave like. Maybe that's not the guy you wanted, but there was nothing "poorly written" about it.  It's another case of "not being what you would have done" doesn't equal "a bad take".It's okay, we can't all bat 1.0.
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