Official Justice League Movie

[AquaParade]

I think the mix works well. Zack's work can be very testosterone driven and I like the mix of that with Gal's femininity.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I think the mix works well. Zack's work can be very testosterone driven and I like the mix of that with Gal's femininity.

Yeah, but there's no way WB would take on that PR. Tossing over Patty Jenkins for the 300/Watchmen/BvS guy? It'd be a bloodbath.

[Galactus]

I know there is a debate about Diana should be a warrior vs a promoter of peace but Snyder wanted her to carry the severed heads of WWI soldiers. There is is no way that guy should touch a Wonder Woman movie.

[Leo656]

I *think* the idea at that very, VERY early stage of the game was, "All she's ever been up until she came to Man's World was an Amazon Warrior. The journey we get to see her take is her learning how to be Human. But it's a process." Which again would fit well with the whole "Gods Among Mortals" theme.

You also have to remember, that at that time in the comics, the New 52 did indeed portray the Amazons as complete bloodthirsty warriors who'd lure men in to be raped and murdered. And THAT was the type of "Amazon" they were pushing Wonder Woman as being descended from, at the time the preliminary ideas for Wonder Woman on film were being written down. We have NO way of knowing whether that whole thing with her being a bloodthirsty warrior was Zack, WB/DC, or a combination of both. But given the way the comics were at the time the whole thing began production, I can very easily believe it was "A little of A, a little of B."

Regardless, that idea was scrapped VERY early in production and there's no indication whatsoever that if he were in fact to do a Wonder Woman movie in the Present Day that those ideas would still be in play. He was very involved in the production of the Wonder Woman movie we actually got, after all. Obviously, Things Change.

[CyberCubed]

You can tell a man (Zack Synder) directed this over the Wonder Woman movies, Diana is wearing a ton of low-cut shirts and dresses in this movie when she's in her casual clothes showing off her boobage.

In the Wonder Woman films you barely see any cleavage out of her when she's in casual clothes except briefly in that blue dress she wore when she was undercover in the German camp.

[CyberCubed]

Finished the movie. Too tired right now to talk about it but overall:

It was good. Great even. Even the things people complained about in the previous Snyder movies were addressed and there was some great character development for all the characters. Snyder completely redeemed. Now I only hope he does get to direct a sequel with Darkseid as the main villain. Hopefully.

Two thumbs up.

[Leo656]

So for those who have seen it, how did the bits where the CGI is supposedly "rough" hold up? Like the J'onn stuff? Just curious. I know it's not gonna bother me but I'm curious how others felt.

Also... after watching MoS and BvS back-to-back, and having read about the outlined plans for what JL2 and JL3 would have been... Jesus, there was a TON of stuff being foreshadowed early on, or things that would have come to mean more as the movies went on, a lot of things people were confused by that would have come to make more sense by the end of JL3, it's actually pretty amazing when you count it all up. Some of those things were a bit subtle, or at least hard to see unless you were looking or them (and at the time, impossible to know what they symbolized or foreshadowed) like the three crosses in the background after Superman dies, which we've come to find were symbolic of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, each of whom had a death scene scripted into one of the films - Superman in BvS, Wonder Woman in JL2, and then finally Batman in JL3. Superman and Wonder Woman would have each been revived - Superman as we've seen by the Mother Boxes in JL1, and Diana by the Flash's time travel in JL3 when he went back in time to stop the events of JL2 from happening - but Bruce's sacrifice in JL3 would have been the "final" one, when he took the Omega blast from Darkseid that was meant for Lois - the event that set JL2's plot into the "Knightmare Timeline" and giving Superman a chance to stop Darkseid once and for all.

Knowing the How and Why finally of what was planned for JL2 and 3... a LOT of the choices they made for MoS and BvS (moreso in BvS, obviously, as plans were a lot more solidified in place by then) are more clear and make a ton more sense, things that are both obvious and also in the background. Really neat! I mean, obviously we wouldn't have known what some of the things being foreshadowed were Back Then, or how they'd play out, but now that we DO know... it's pretty cool and fits together well.

Also, I don't know if we'll ever know at what point Gen. Swanwick was decided to be Martian Manhunter - maybe Zack always planned it that way, maybe it was just a fan theory he decided to run with because it made a lot of sense, and maybe he had the idea and floated it out there to see what the reaction would be, only deciding to make it official once it seemed people liked the idea - but regardless, watching those movies over again KNOWING that he's J'onn... it completely reframes every single scene he's in, especially the ones he shares with Superman, and makes you look at those scenes a little bit differently. Whether it was planned or a retrofit... it actually works really well. I don't even care if it is a retrofit, because it actually enriches the existing material. So I'm glad they went with that, regardless of how they got there.

Looking forward to finally seeing this tomorrow. I have a strong feeling that watching it within a day of the other two movies is the best thing to do. MoS and BvS play together VERY well and I expect the flow into JL to be no different.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So for those who have seen it, how did the bits where the CGI is supposedly "rough" hold up? Like the J'onn stuff? Just curious. I know it's not gonna bother me but I'm curious how others felt.

I'm wondering if Snyder advocated the "IMAX ratio" for the entire film to better hide/masque what might be shoddy CGI stuff. i.e., if you're scrunching the picture down on everybody's home TVs, your eyes won't notice little details on the CGI characters and stuff going on. As much.

[Leo656]

I don't know. "Allegedly" he was always holding out hope for an eventual IMAX theatrical release if things went well, and that's why he stuck to that ratio - he's All About IMAX, so that does sound like something he'd do - but if they were hoping for that, they'd have to know that any "spotty" CGI wouldn't hold up on a theatre screen in IMAX.

So I don't know. Since it does seem to be getting a decent reception, I can actually kinda see a possibility for a theatrical release at some point when theaters open up some more, even a limited one. If/When they do open up, they'll need content, studios (and theaters) will want some quick cash, and other movies that were re-released have managed to do "okay" business in limited markets. A year ago, I'd have said "No Chance", but I can actually see a very small chance for it, now, if demand is there. I wouldn't bet money on it but it also wouldn't shock me. Not as much as it would have, say, last week.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't know. "Allegedly" he was always holding out hope for an eventual IMAX theatrical release if things went well, and that's why he stuck to that ratio - he's All About IMAX, so that does sound like something he'd do - but if they were hoping for that, they'd have to know that any "spotty" CGI wouldn't hold up on a theatre screen in IMAX.

So I don't know. Since it does seem to be getting a decent reception, I can actually kinda see a possibility for a theatrical release at some point when theaters open up some more, even a limited one. If/When they do open up, they'll need content, studios (and theaters) will want some quick cash, and other movies that were re-released have managed to do "okay" business in limited markets. A year ago, I'd have said "No Chance", but I can actually see a very small chance for it, now, if demand is there. I wouldn't bet money on it but it also wouldn't shock me. Not as much as it would have, say, last week.

Oh, they'll definitely release it in theaters eventually. It would be a colossal missed opportunity on a number of levels if they didn't. But it'd be long after HBO Max has milked what subscriptions they can get out of things, which is understandable.

[Leo656]

If and When they do, I will be there for sure. But yeah, might not be for a while yet.

So far this thing is like "The Little (Change) Engine That Could." It's getting a pretty warm reception for a thing that for years many people swore on a stack of dead Kryptonians either 1. Didn't exist, 2. Would never be seen, and 3. "If it existed, it would be trash and people would hate it, anyway."

Well, it existed (albeit as a rough cut, but it was tangible thing they were able to staple a movie together out of), it is being seen, and most people don't seem to actually hate it, even if they don't in fact love it. And some people do love it.

It's hard not to laugh at least a little bit. Many people spoke with much conviction, for a very long time, about things they knew little about and are now being proven wrong about. For as hard and as long as the Snyder loyalists pleaded and worked to try and bring this thing into existence by sheer force of will, the people who hate his stuff have truthfully been putting twice as much work into crushing those hopes at every turn. "Give it up, bro, it ain't real, and if it was real it'd be sh*t anyway." It was like the very idea of this movie being real was a threat to their entire identity as people, with as hard as they worked at shouting people down, just for having any hope.

In a different world, different scenario, different global situation, Different Everything... it may not have ever actually happened. It's pretty crazy to think about. It took such a crazy set of very specific circumstances to actually make any of this a reality. Something like this MIGHT not ever happen again. It might, but it also might not.

Pretty wild, man. Pretty wild.

[Andrew NDB]

"The Snyder Cut doesn't exist! Not even with unfinished scenes and all!"

Yeah, these people definitely get to be laughed at now. There were many, even around here.

[Leo656]

I mean, a four-hour movie and he shot THREE MINUTES of new footage, most of it for the coda.

It could have easily come out at any time within the last 4 years if WB had any reason to wipe the egg off of their face and pony up the cash. The only thing stopping them was, they were SO afraid that they'd be exposed for making the wrong choice back in 2017. Billionaires never like to admit that they're wrong.

Whedon was the wrong horse to back. Having cold feet about Zack's vision given the fact that BvS didn't draw a billion dollars was understandable, to a point. But a complete over-correction was the wrong move, WB in their greed, desperation and hubris, handled the whole situation wrong.

I get that it can be tough to think too far ahead when so much money is at stake. From the outset, though, Zack and Deborah always insisted that if people were just patient, and willing to let the story be told, then everything would eventually pay off, make sense, and be satisfying. I always believed it. This "series" - MoS, BvS, and JL1, JL2 and JL3 - at some point early on became designed to fit together like a traditional comic book mini-series. The solo films were adjacent and essential to advancing the individual character's origin stories and plots, but the "main plot" was the thread that would have tied MoS into JL3, five movies as One Long Story. It's a lot easier to see it that way now, with Zack's complete plans for JL2 and JL3 being public knowledge. So many things that happened in BvS, and even in MoS, were scripted to not ultimately pay off until JL3... JUST like a comic book mini-series.

Issue #1 (MoS) might be the "hook", but it doesn't tell the whole story. Not even Issue #2 (BvS), usually; that's generally more set-up and getting pieces on the board. Issue #3, though (JL)? THAT'S where things finally start to become clear and all the pieces fall into place, and you get a more crystal clear idea of what's actually going on, what the story is actually ABOUT. And then the next issue (JL2) is the "Bad Guys Win, how do the heroes find their way out of this?" story, and THEN the final issue (JL3) is the triumphant and heroic resolution of the story that began in Issue #1.

It all makes so much more sense, now. Zack Snyder wasn't making a series of independent solo DC films that had some connective tissue between them; he was making a five-"issue" mini-series about a Darkseid invasion and how Superman's emergence gave birth to the Justice League, all so they could stop him, unite the world, and bring about the New Age Of Heroes.

It's a very good plot for a "comic book mini-series". And looking at it like that, knowing Now what we didn't know Then... man. We really DID just need to be patient and let the story be told.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Zack Snyder wasn't making a series of independent solo DC films that had some connective tissue between them

He absolutely was. That was the whole deal, until he was coerced into not doing that, made to substitute MoS 2 with BvS for a number of reasons in WB's eyes (apologize for the end of MoS, get Batman in there quick, get a JL movie on the fast track). From that point on, yes, I get what you're saying and I think you're right, but I think it's far less "Snyder's grand plan all along" and more "the best/most 'fun' thing Snyder could do, Snyder being Snyder, with what was being tasked of him by WB after them shifting the train tracks under him."

Skimming over the Snyder Cut... just 4 things for now:

1. Not a spoiler. As I knew it would turn out, Affleck's Bruce is way in shape and not puffy faced anywhere in here. He looks great. See? Whedon reshot 90% of the movie after Affleck stopped working out (and started drinking!) after thinking the movie was said and done for a month or two... little did he know he'd be yanked back and asked to basically reshoot the whole thing.

Spoiler:

2. Really? Resurrecting Superman in the Krypton ship was always the plan? That's lame. I was sure Snyder would have had that happen completely differently. Because if there's this magic Krypton ship that already brought Zod to life as Doomsday... why would nobody think for a moment it might bring Superman back to life? Or at least try it? I was thinking Whedon just invented that as a stupid convenience to hurry up and get Superman back onto the screen as fast as possible.

3. Martian Manhunter looks... OK. Fairly rubbery. But I think by that point in the movie you really won't care.

4. Make the JL headquarters at Wayne Manor? Eh... that's... probably not a good iea.

[ZariusTwo]

Zack Snyder essentially threw Geeks and Gamers under the bus last night and the level of cope and denial from them is priceless. Ethan Van Sciver is credited in the movie and he absolutely hates the movie now.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Ethan Van Sciver is credited in the movie and he absolutely hates the movie now.

That's not true at all. He wasn't a fan of the Whedon cut but promises he'll give the new one a fair shake:



Mostly he just seems bothered by "Barry Allen" in the movie. Which is fair. He has an invested interest in Flash and Barry Allen, in the comics he's made ("Flash: Rebirth," etc.)... and the Ezra Miller Barry Allen doesn't bare any resemblance to that character in any way.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

He absolutely was. That was the whole deal, until he was coerced into not doing that, made to substitute MoS 2 with BvS for a number of reasons in WB's eyes (apologize for the end of MoS, get Batman in there quick, get a JL movie on the fast track). From that point on, yes, I get what you're saying and I think you're right, but I think it's far less "Snyder's grand plan all along" and more "the best/most 'fun' thing Snyder could do, Snyder being Snyder, with what was being tasked of him by WB after them shifting the train tracks under him."

Oh, I don't doubt that after MoS and before BvS, a lot of things changed as to what the emerging "DCEU" might look like and how they might get there. I'm not saying that Zack's DC movies becoming a "five-issue mini-series" was the plan on Day One, but at some point that DID indeed become the plan, and it really becomes clear when you look at the things planned for JL2 and JL3 and see how they tie back into MoS, and more strongly BvS. Specifically, Superman finally "Standing proud" in front of the unified armies of the world - humans, Amazons, Atlanteans - and alongside the Justice League leading them ALL into battle against Darkseid during the climactic battle of JL3 would have fulfilled the "prophecy" Jor-El had in MoS. His inspiration for the creation of the League would have been the spark that lit the fire, but him and the League actually leading the entire WORLD to rise up and resist Darkseid would indeed have been a rather epic conclusion to what was foretold in MoS. So regardless of what was planned for the DCEU when they wrote the first draft of MoS, what they later came up with for JL1-JL3 and how they used BvS as a bridge between MoS and the JL movies might actually have ended up as a better, tighter story overall.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Spoiler:

4. Make the JL headquarters at Wayne Manor? Eh... that's... probably not a good iea.

Spoiler:

They did that in the theatrical cut, too.

The thing with that is, I think the in-story point was that their new "Hall of Justice" would be adjacent to an already-existing Batcave, thus making it easier for them to operate, since Batman would already have most of the stuff they'd need and the space already exists.

Some people didn't catch this, but in the timeline of these movies Bruce didn't actually LIVE in Wayne Manor anymore, and hadn't for several years.
He lived in the lake house (with a new Batcave). Wayne Manor was just a big abandoned building. Affleck's abandoned version of "The Batman" movie was going to explain in greater detail how several years before, several of his villains (one of them being Bane, I believe) had deduced his secret identity, broken into Wayne Manor and in the midst of battle, burned it to a husk. That was spoken of briefly way back in the build-up and Making Of stuff when BvS was coming out. The movie itself kind of glosses over it with everything else going on. But yeah, he pops into the old Wayne Manor a few times in BvS but he hadn't lived there in years.

If you actually watch the scenes of Bruce in Wayne Manor during BvS, you can see that it's in a complete state of disrepair and decay. So my thinking is, in-story the new Justice League would simply appear to be taking over some abandoned real estate to better suit their team operation; only they would know that this big burnt-out corpse of a mansion was secretly sitting right on top of the old original Batcave, after all. And if anyone asked too many questions, Bruce could easily cover that by saying he was "donating" the building to the Justice League as a gesture of goodwill because he believed in them. In-story that wouldn't necessarily make any average person suddenly think "THAT GUY MUST BE BATMAN!" It would just be some rich guy loaning his old abandoned house to a group of super-heroes, so they can knock it down and build a shinier one where the old one stood. That's all it would look like to any normal person living in Gotham City.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That's not true at all. He wasn't a fan of the Whedon cut but promises he'll give the new one a fair shake:.

Obviously you haven't kept up with the last few hours.

Sciver donated some money to Geeks'N'Gamers in a superchat and pretty much ripped Snyder a new one, calling his movie 'awful' and accused him of selling out because Zack labelled Geeks'N'Gamers a hate group.

[Andrew NDB]

Spoiler:

While I'd forgotten Bruce had set up Wayne Manor as the future JL base in the Whedon Cut as well... no, I'm well aware he hadn't lived in it in years. That was abundantly clear even in BvS. But my point remains. People know what Wayne Manor is and who used to live there (and I doubt he, like, sold the land or anything... he just let it go to pot)... they're going to figure it out. Or do we now tack a Tony Stark level of "And now everyone knows who he is!" on top of murderous Batman? Lame.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Obviously you haven't kept up with the last few hours.

Sciver donated some money to Geeks'N'Gamers in a superchat and pretty much ripped Snyder a new one, calling his movie 'awful' and accused him of selling out because Zack labelled Geeks'N'Gamers a hate group.

Huh. No, didn't know that. I don't listen to his long livecasts, just the little blurbs he puts out. Sometimes they're pretty amusing.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Spoiler:

While I'd forgotten Bruce had set up Wayne Manor as the future JL base in the Whedon Cut as well... no, I'm well aware he hadn't lived in it in years. That was abundantly clear even in BvS. But my point remains. People know what Wayne Manor is and who used to live there (and I doubt he, like, sold the land or anything... he just let it go to pot)... they're going to figure it out. Or do we now tack a Tony Stark level of "And now everyone knows who he is!" on top of murderous Batman? Lame.

Spoiler:

I think that's a bit of assumption/projection. In several different incarnations of the JLA over the years in the comics, either Oliver Queen or Bruce Wayne were financially backing the League at various points but it was never traced back to them and their secret identities remained intact. I mean, it's "comic book stuff". Heck, at one point not all that long ago Bruce Wayne publicly came out as Batman's "financial backer", and in-universe people STILL didn't stop and think about it long enough to automatically jump to the idea that "He might actually BE Batman."

Things like that might make the "regular people" in the story a bit dim, but that's just how these things go. Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist; if he comes out publicly and says, for example, "I believe in what Superman and these others are trying to do, and I wanna help. Go ahead, take my old house, I'm not using it, knock it down and put up a... I don't know, some kind of Hall of Justice or something," most regular people would just think he was trying to get good PR. They wouldn't immediately assume that he was Batman. It's normal for YOU to connect those dots because you already know that he's Batman. The people in the story don't know.

If Elon Musk did that, would you immediately assume that he, too, was Batman? Or maybe he's just a concerned rich guy looking to get his name in the paper? Hey, Max Lord actually helped get the JLA a base of operations once upon a time; did anyone in the story assume that HE was Batman because he got them a place to live? No, they didn't. They just figured he was some rich guy pitching in.

Some things needn't be over-thought, is my point. Wayne Manor becoming the Hall of Justice could be explained in-story as simply as Bruce Wayne "donating" it to them on account of he wasn't using it, giving some public speech about "I wanna help make the world a better place and this is my way of helping," and nobody'd ever think twice about it. Nobody knows what's in the basement.

Bruce and Alfred know, and You and I know. The "regular people" in the story? They don't know.

To your direct question, No, nothing about the plans for JL2, JL3, or Affleck's "The Batman" movie ever dealt with his secret ID getting exposed, at least nothing that was ever written down and since been spoken of out loud. By the time he was to have died in JL3, only the other League members, Alfred and Lois ever knew. Whether they were going to have it revealed after he died, like some stories have done, I have no idea. So again, they must have pulled some fast-talk shenanigans to cover up the fact that the League was living in his old house, because somehow nobody ever connected those dots.

It's just not worth over-thinking it when it's something so easily explained away.