Official Justice League Movie

[CyberCubed]

I pretty much enjoyed most of the movie, and my nitpicks are minor problems at most and not really a big deal. But if it were me I would have left these scenes out and here are a few problems:

- We didn't need long extended songs with lyrics for every superheroes introduction. As I mentioned, the one that felt the most drawn out was Aquaman's where all the villagers were singing in their language that felt like it went on for like 3+ minutes. I mean...all Aquaman did was return to the ocean. It was way too long and the focus on that one young girl singing was pretty droning.

- Not a big fan of the Knightmare sequence at the end. Don't care for Jared Leto's Joker, and overall, it kinda felt out of place besides that? I mean the movie had mostly a "happy" ending and then we find out its all Bruce's dream anyway. I can see why some would like it but it just felt unneeded.

- The scene with Martha and Lois should have just been Martha. Consider the bank really did foreclose on the house, I wonder how he even knew that. It also feels strange unless Martha met up with Lois off-screen at some point before Superman came back to life

- Aquaman kinda felt shortchanged in this movie. A lot of his personality from the Aquaman movie was largely absent here. His "dudebro" personality. And besides a few small scenes here and there he was largely the straight man during the big group scenes. Not counting Superman, it felt Aquaman got the least amount of screentime of the characters.

- The final scene should have had Superman with the classic red/blue outfit. Wearing black for the final fight was fine, but after? Feels odd if they set up a sequel knowing he'd still be wearing black rather than his "iconic" colors.


That's about it. I enjoyed the rest of the movie. Cyborg was really the best character in this and it's a shame WB/Joss screwed his actor over that he doesn't want to come back. Lastly this movie show how you can have female leads (Wonder Woman and the other Amazons) and a black superhero (Cyborg) and "do it right" without feeling like SJW pandering.

[ZariusTwo]

Sky Premiere aired a festive rom-com this morning instead of the Snyder cut

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a3...iere-replaced/



So that's four additional cuts that exist

-The accidental Tom and Jerry cut
-The Society Cut with Joker's missing line
-Justice Is Grey
-The accidental Sally Jessica Parker Cut

[AquaParade]

+ I love Wonder Woman in this movie. Cheesy, but heartfelt scenes, Junxie XL score, and Zack's visual direction is a big win for me.

- "Epilogue" felt completely tacked on. More so, it just wasn't compelling. Thanks for trying with the Joker, but after Joaquin, that felt dull and lifeless.

[CyberCubed]

Unless I'm remembering wrong weren't their more Diana/Bruce scenes in the 2017 version? I feel like there's some other scenes that aren't in this one.

[IMJ]

Just got done watching it. I thought it was great, but I also thought that the Whedon cut wasn't anywhere as bad as people who were lambasting it. Somewhere in this thread Leo656 made a point about people bashing the movie for things that in any other movies wouldn't have been a big deal. People get on board with their BS because it's the thing to do.

But with that said, I will say that there were some elements of the Whedon cut that I thought were fine now by comparison.

I think most importantly this version of the movie actually paints a huge picture for me regarding Cyborg-guy's ******** in real life. I liked him in both cuts, but it's very clear that Whedon's version removed Cyborg from the heart of the movie, and given Cyborg-guy's complaints now it seems even more like it was sour grapes. Like he knew that his signficant role was reduced and that was his big shot and maybe he threw a fit over that, kicking and screaming abuse and racism the whole ass hole way.

Lastly, given the tribalism and movie-bashing bandwagon I mentioned above, I don't really know that this cut (even a little shorter) would've saved the franchise. But I do wish they'd do a sequel and finish this story. Even if this movie was secretly a part 2 to Dawn of Justices prt 1. One more movie to finish it would be great.

Jared Leto's Joker I thought was great. No reason to bash it except to deceptively broadcast some kind of judgement superiority. I didn't see Suicide Squad, but Leto's Joker and the nuance was great in the last scenes. Thought the early replacement of Steppenwolf with Darkseid losing was an interesting choice. That alone could be an entire conversation. It was neat to see, but doesn't that also sort of weaken Darkseid's character a bit? Showing the big, behind the scenes bad guy in a devastating loss at the hands of ancient superheroes wielding swords right up front like that?

It's a long movie so there's a lot to discuss. In general it was a good cut for the most part and I'm glad that it was put out there. It's a good move for the fans in a day and age where studios crap on the people giving them money.

[Shark_Blade]

#JusticeLeague Rotten Tomatoes Score
40% Critics
71% Audience

#SnyderCut Rotten Tomatoes Score
77% Critics
97% Audience

https://twitter.com/getfandom/status...781278212?s=21

[CyberCubed]

So I skimmed through the Whedon version and nearly forgot how many cheesy/terrible jokes it has. Besides the Flash falls into Wonder Woman's chest there's:

- After Superman knocks down Batman after he is revived, Batman is lying on the ground saying, "Yes something is definitely bleeding..." in a joking manner

- When Superman/Cyborg pull apart the 3 mother boxes, Superman says, "Now I wish I WERE dead!" and starts laughing. Cyborg responds, "Even my toes are hurting...I don't even know how it's scientifically possible for me to even feel my toes!" and they start laughing on the ground. wtf.

- Aquaman talks about how "hot" Wonder Woman is when he doesn't realize his leg was caught in her lasso of truth.

- Flash tries to bro-fist Cyborg when they're digging Superman up from his grave. And he makes a joke about "pet cemetery."

- Bruce mentions Steve Trevor to Diana and she gets mad and pushes him against the wall. Kind of unneeded and made Bruce look like a jerk.

- The whole stupid Russian family living near the nuclear power plant. I nearly forgot this, they have a ton of scenes in the movie and Superman/Flash rescue them from the growing vines. I'm glad they were cut completely.


Lastly I was surprised that Cyborg's father doesn't die in the Whedon version, you just don't see him again till the credits. The way they discover Stephenwolf is at the power planet is just completely different.

Stepenwolf is also "killed" by the Parademons sensing his "fear."


Batman also makes a ton of quips during the fight scenes, I can't remember them all by heart, but Batman is literally going around making Iron Man style quips that seem so out of place when he's fighting Parademons.

All the re-shot scenes were obvious and all for the worse. Only scene I liked was a shot of Batman fighting a Parademon in Gotham City at the start of the movie, just youtube that.

[sdp]

flashpoint paradox will make both versions canon. they'll drop a line like "I remember CYborg's dad dying and surviving" or something like that to reference both versions.

The Snyder version of Flash is the one that crossed over with the Arrowverse

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

#JusticeLeague Rotten Tomatoes Score
40% Critics
71% Audience

#SnyderCut Rotten Tomatoes Score
77% Critics
97% Audience

https://twitter.com/getfandom/status...781278212?s=21

Knowing you, you probably enjoyed the Whedon version too.

Great to hear it's getting good reviews though. Can't wait to watch this!

[CyberCubed]

Also the Batman costume/suit is the best its ever looked in live action. I honestly can't believe how good Batman looks this time, it's like a comic book turn live action. The previous Batman movie costumes were stylized heavily for their movies, but Affleck's Batman looks like the definitive Batman costume.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

Knowing you, you probably enjoyed the Whedon version too.

Great to hear it's getting good reviews though. Can't wait to watch this!

You don’t know me then cause I despise Whedon’s version. I can’t remember much from that movie so watching Zack’s version is like a fresh take.

Only downside to Zack’s version is 4:3 ratio. It’s a small annoyance but I rather have it full screen or letterbox version.

[Leo656]

Wow. WOW. So many thoughts. I'm not even gonna try and put them in order, and just go off the cuff. First, to put things in proper context I have to first speak to Whedon's Cut before I address my feelings on this movie, because the context DOES matter and only further highlights the disparity between the two films.

Also, Multiple Parts, because Obviously.

So for one thing, I saw Whedon's cut a few times in theaters and again on Blu-ray and TV a few times, so I've probably watched it more than most people ever bothered to and enough so that it's still fresh enough in my mind. It wasn't the worst movie I'd ever seen and I found it a "good enough if you don't aim very high" kind of super-hero movie. Not "great", just "good enough" and very "safe" and "generic". I hated that nothing I'd expected from the trailers was in it and I found all of the humor very forced, but accepted it because I understand that's mostly what people want from these kinds of movies. I hated that it didn't fit well with MoS and BvS, but I understood that WB and Whedon wanted their movie to be more accessible to people who either didn't like or didn't see those movies. It seemed like it achieved THAT goal, at least, as people who hated MoS and BvS constantly insist to the me that even if Whedon's JL wasn't "good", it was "better than those other two" by essentially being more like a Marvel movie in every way. Meanwhile, turns out those ham-fisted attempts to do JL as "A Marvel movie" is what ripped the guts out and made it so f*cking awful.

And having seen "Zack Snyder's Justice League", I do now think that Whedon's version really IS awful. Worse than that, even. Because now it stands as not only a "bad movie" on its own but also a complete and total butchering of what, it turns out, was actually once a VERY GOOD movie.

Before seeing ZSJL, when asked my opinion I always said I thought the Whedon version was about a B- or C+; nothing great but "good enough to amuse yourself with for two hours if you don't expect much at all". Now, I revise the grade of Joss Whedon's "Justice League" to a straight F. It has NO value anymore, not even as its own stand-alone thing. Its only legacy now is as a monument to studio interference, a tribute to blind panic and shoddy "craftsmanship" (you can't even say that with a straight face).

Not only was the humor completely tone-deaf and jarring in Whedon's Cut, so much of it literally was forced in. Like Whedon cut out so much of Zack's scenes, but DOUBLED the Bruce and Barry scene in Barry's apartment, and the extra length was literally ALL just bad jokes like "What is Brunch". WHY was that even necessary? You're tasked with cutting a four-hour movie down to two, and not only are you ADDING material to scenes to make them longer but the stuff you add is BAD? What. The F*CK.

And then, you get the stuff Whedon just kinda threw in there to mimic Zack's style to try and make things "fit", and it shows you just how little he even understood Zack's style in doing so. Like the entire intro to Whedon's cut, you can tell he was thinking "I'll just set a bunch of gloomy scenes to a sad song, add a couple clips of random slow-motion, and BAM, it'll fit Snyder's motif perfectly! No one will ever know!" And yes, I know some people DO really think that's all there is to the "Zack Snyder Style", but obviously the devil is in the details. When you actually see true "Zack Snyder Style" in action, unfiltered, you can clearly see how it's a lot more complicated than that. Whedon's attempt was pathetic.

So anyway, yeah, f*ck the Whedon Cut. My wife suggested a mass burning. That would be bad for the environment, but if someone would at least just forget and disregard that piece of sh*t entirely moving forward, that would be spectacular.
-----------------

NOW. Onto "Zack Snyder's Justice League" - which definitely deserves that title, because rather than just being "A Director's Cut", it really is a completely different f*cking movie altogether than what was released in 2017. Calling it a "director's cut" doesn't go nearly far enough.

For starters, it felt like maybe ten minutes altogether of footage that was used in both cuts. And the snippets that were kept for Whedon's cut - which were already sparse - being clipped to pieces and removed of all context REALLY hurt them. Seeing them restored in their full presentation and context makes a HUGE difference. Even with the same broad-strokes plot, and a few of the same snippets of footage, it remains two TOTALLY different movies. And that's pretty amazing. It goes to show you how people can interpret something in completely different ways. You give two different writers or directors a rough plot of "Aliens invade looking for Mother Boxes, Batman forms a Justice League to stop them" to work from, and now just look at how that exact same plot can be made into a film in some pretty drastically different ways. One "eh," and one "F*cking Amazing."

It's long, but it never drags, and aside from a few shots that kind of linger but are still necessary in some form, I don't see how anyone could take more than ten minutes off, total, and even that's a stretch. Snyder makes "Big" movies, but they always do use every square inch of real estate. This is no exception. A hair could have been shaved off here or there, but "four" is a nice round number anyway. It felt very well-paced and the slow-burn build was terrific. When the action scenes finally hit, they feel earned, and the action itself justifies the build; it always feels like it's exactly what you've been waiting for.

The action scenes hit SO much harder. During fights, there's no wasted motion; everything each character does feels like an essential piece of a larger whole and there's a logic and continuity to the choreography. Nothing in the action scenes happens "just to happen" or look cool, every strike and dodge has a point and a purpose. And every single action scene is incredible.

The SFX looked great, even things that looked a bit "iffy" in some of the leaked screengrabs I saw (which goes to show, leaks never tell the whole story). I don't know if Martian Manhunter would hold up on an IMAX screen, and it was definitely the weakest CGI in the movie, but every single other thing looked fantastic. It's as close to being "theater-ready" as one could ever imagine. They did a great job polishing this thing up.

I loved the music. Tom or Junkie XL or whatever you wanna call him did a fantastic job here, and it's miles ahead of the very limp Danny Elfman score from the theatrical cut. I love Elfman, but he borrows from himself too often AND he was only given a few weeks to even work on that version of the score, so by default it just wasn't his best work and what could have been the highlight of a very bad movie in the Whedon cut turned out to be just One More Thing that didn't work. Not all Elfman's fault. But this new score is awesome. The "metal" stuff hits at exactly the right time, as does the stuff that's more orchestral and operatic. And it all works together so well. The parts that were worked in from Tom and Zimmer's cues in the earlier films were used to great effect and strike exactly the right emotional chord.

The new characters, and extended scenes with the existing characters, were all welcome. DeSaad was great; Granny Goodness literally did nothing but stand around in the background, and was very easy to miss, but eh. Darkseid was perfect.

The battle scene of the ancient armies fighting Darkseid was fantastic. I loved that it was Ares who struck the final blow that brought down Darkseid; that felt very fitting.

Aquaman and Wonder Woman are practically a tag team in this; very cool to see given the tension between their two races in the past. They work directly together often during battle and are often standing beside each other otherwise. Pretty good reinforcement of the themes about unity.

Further on that, it really stood out to me that there's pretty much no tension between the team in any major way once they do come together; they have brief disagreements but they're very quickly resolved, whereas in the Whedon cut they're basically arguing and tripping over each other for most of the movie. There's much more of the team functioning AS A TEAM in this movie, which is how it should be. The crammed-in angst between League members in the Whedon cut is just one more thing that was overdone there, and corrected here.

(Cont.)

[Leo656]

The color saturation really feels more organic, here. I know some people just LOVE bright shiny colors in their super-hero movies, and there is a time and place for that, but not only do the desaturated colors fit the tone of this movie better, they actually do a lot to fix some of the shots that looked just f*cking terrible in the Whedon cut. Like, the stuff of Aquaman fighting Parademons in the Whedon cut and "surfing" on one of them before crashing into the building... it all looked REALLY bad in the theatrical cut because the colors were turned up so much to the point where it screwed up the contrast and made the CGI stand out more, but it all looks just fine here. It went from "Kinda cool if you squint" to Just Plain Cool.

The humor isn't anywhere near as overdone as Whedon's, but it's still there. Most of it is still from Flash, but even his lines and delivery are done much better here. I was never like cracking up or anything but I was definitely laughing a lot more than I expected to, and it was more heartfelt.

Lois, sadly, gets little to do but grieve and then react as you'd expect she would to Clark's return, but she's still great in every scene she's in. It's already a packed movie so I'm not sure where she'd fit in but the only "problem" with Lois was there just wasn't enough.

Martian Manhunter, what little we got, was a great way to work him into things, while again leaving you wanting more. And it all fits with the earlier films as well, since given the world's reaction to Superman's emergence wasn't entirely positive one could also assume that their reaction to a mind-reading, shape-shifting Martian wouldn't be much better. But now knowing that there are others like him coming together, along with knowledge of what's still to come from Darkseid, it feels like the perfect time for him to emerge and join the fight.

Flash is executed MUCH better here; not altogether different, but less annoying and altogether more useful. His power is shown to MUCH greater effect, and his running isn't so damned awkward looking; he still takes huge strides with a lot of arm movement, but for one thing the way it's filmed makes it look more like he's throwing his whole self into each movement, and for another the Snyder Slow-Motion just makes it all look a lot more natural and graceful, whereas Whedon made it look spastic and fake. It's the same basic idea but executed completely differently, and it's Night and Day. Every scene of Flash cutting loose was amazing, especially at the end.

Cyborg definitely got the raw deal when Zack left the project. Easily one of the best parts in the movie and he almost steals the show. All of those scenes, especially before and up to the accident, were fantastic. And the closure he got at the end - as well as his line delivery - were perfect. "I'm not broken. And I'm not alone." And it hits exactly the way it's meant to hit. Perfect execution.

Some people complained about Wonder Woman being much more violent in battle here than she was in the Jenkins movies, and I do kinda get that but at the same time the situations of this movie are different and require a different kind of urgency (and let's be real, she was cutting loose with that sword quite a bit in the first Wonder Woman movie, too). I haven't seen WW84 yet but she definitely felt like the same character here that she was in BvS and the first WW movie. All of her action scenes were perfection and even her more dramatic scenes were well done. I was surprised at how good her narration of the "History Lesson" was during that scene; her enunciation was perfect and she had just the right amount of intensity.

Aquaman does get the least to do, but he does all of it well. He's definitely a bit more subdued in this movie than either the Whedon cut or his solo film, but again, it fits the tone of this movie and its story better. And it does still feel consistent.

Batman... is SO much better here. Not just that it's more consistent with BvS, that's a given... but the way Bruce's character has EVOLVED from the events of that movie. He's clearly in a more hopeful, optimistic place thanks to Superman's example and sacrifice, and it gets over in a way that doesn't feel as cheesy or forced as it did in the Whedon cut ("We know he's more well-adjusted because he's constantly cracking jokes now!"). No, here it's more subdued, but still perfectly clear. "Faith, Alfred. FAITH!" And again, it hits exactly the way it's meant to.

I also loved that Bruce and Alfred incorporated Kryptonian technology into his suit and weaponry. That was perfect.

And then... Superman. Well... like Cubed said, I would have reinstated the blue and red suit for the "shirt rip" scene, personally, but I think that the blue suit was supposed to be saved for JL3 initially to symbolize his "true awakening" as "Superman" once all the Knightmare stuff had been conquered and done away with, so it's something I understand them wanting to retain as a stylistic storytelling device. Since he was going to be under Darkseid's thrall for part of JL2, keeping him in the black suit for that movie and then switching back in the final movie would have made sense. I know JL2 and JL3 aren't going to happen, so you may as well have just switched it to the blue suit for that shot to "send the crowd home happy", but Zack was adamant about not compromising anything for this version and doing it all the way he originally envisioned it, so I understand why he chose to do it like that. If he wasn't supposed to wear the blue again until JL3, and this movie's conceit is in still "pretending" that the sequels are coming, then I understand and accept the choice.

Everything else was perfect. Not only was it perfect, but it also makes things from MoS and BvS feel better in context. For one thing, in MoS Clark (as Superman) is almost entirely mentored by Jor-El's AI. In BvS, by contrast, he seeks counsel from Martha and the ghost of Jonathan. But then here, when he's about to take flight, he hears both Jor-El AND Jonathan guiding him. He's finally, completely become "the bridge between two peoples", both human AND Kryptonian and embodying the best of both worlds. He's finally become the TRUE "Superman" he was meant to be. MoS and BvS was all the journey in getting there. All the "mopey emo angst" people swore was simply "Zack's misunderstanding of the character" was simply The Hero's Journey and everything that goes with it. "Your heart was tested." He had to walk through fire before he could just assume the lofty mantle of Earth's Greatest Hero. "Love them... as we loved you." And when he died for the world who had once burned him in effigy, he proved that he truly DID love them, even if they never really knew or understood him. He loved them enough to forgive them, and he died to protect them... and then rose again because it's a Never-Ending Battle.

That's Superman. His story from MoS through BvS and into this movie all fits together SO well, and it shows a great evolution of the character. People who didn't like it seriously needed to just f*cking RELAX, be patient, and Let The F*cking Story Be Told. Seriously, man, if they were f*cking up my all-time favorite character for the last ten years, I would notice and I'd have said so. But they've been so, so RIGHT with it since the beginning. Context is Everything.

The fight with Steppenwolf was awesome. I thought he dished out a beating in the Whedon Cut, but oh MAN did he cut loose here, while making it look easy. And when he and Darkseid stared each other down from opposite ends of the Boom Tube... totally got chills. I knew they wouldn't, but I was hoping they were gonna throw down right then and there. And I can't help but love how in the moment Superman's posture was so alert, but relaxed; like even if Darkseid DID jump through that Boom Tube and try and raise Hell, he totally wasn't sweating it. He had a look in his eye almost like "C'mon, then. I dare you." Cavill is SUCH a terrific Superman.

Contrast with that, the stuff on the farm with Lois and Martha was also really great and really powerful. Couldn't help but love that small bit with the butterfly. Again, people who swear there's no "heart" or "human moments" in these movies really just need to look with their eyes open, because it's all in there. In spades, even. ALL of Zack's DC movies from MoS through this one are full of "human moments", they're just not all "Sunny/Funny". They're smaller, more poignant. You don't have to SAY, "I really like being alive" and be so on the nose about it; you can show it by gazing at a sunset, lovingly stroking a blade of grass or cradling a butterfly.

People say that "Zack Snyder does not do 'Subtlety'." I strongly disagree. I think what he actually DOES, is that he weds Subtlety with Bombast and executes both to the Nth degree. I think sometimes his subtle points are SO subtle, they get overshadowed by the bombastic parts in people's minds and memory. But to say his movies are all pomp and pageantry, and no "human" heart, is a flat-out, boldfaced lie. There's enough "heart" in this movie for TEN other super-hero films, especially ones that aspire to be as "Epic" as this one manages to be.

(Cont.)

[Leo656]

All in all, what can I say about "Zack Snyder's Justice League"?

Full Disclosure: Given how I felt about Zack's previous two DC films, I always knew that I would like this film, both because I like his style and because I knew that simply by being a true sequel to MoS and BvS would in turn make it a better, more cohesive movie than the Whedon Cut. And again, I never hated the Whedon Cut the way most people did, until now. I grudgingly tolerated it, while respecting what it tried to do despite completely disagreeing with the approach they took with it. And I maintain that it was never as bad as many others have said, as its own thing.

But the Whedon Cut was a TERRIBLE attempt at executing the material that this movie manages to execute so masterfully. THIS film right here, is a master class of filmmaking, in illustrating why things like cohesion, editing, juxtaposition, balance, and context all MATTER. It's not just the rough bones of the story, it's how you EXECUTE those elements and bring them together into a larger Whole. The two movies tell, essentially, the same loose story; but This One does SO much better with the material in every way possible, that it's like the two aren't even in the same league... or the same sport.

The length may intimidate some people, but for me it was a total non-issue and I really feel like once you settle in, it takes you on a real ride and the time just flies by. The Chapter breaks were definitely welcome - by the start pf Chapter 4 I did need to use the bathroom - and while they're not evenly-spaced they do seem to come at exactly the right time throughout, without breaking up the flow or intruding on the action or story. I would not be shocked at all to see other "Epic" films with "epic" length start to follow a similar format in the future. To anyone concerned about the length, I'd say to just put that out of your mind because it really isn't a factor at all.

This movie is absolutely The TRUE Version of "Justice League". And I'll go so far as to say that anyone who'd prefer Whedon's cut over THIS version is a f*cking idiot. There's just no nice way to say it. Whedon's cut isn't just a hack-job; it's rape. Flat-out rape. Again, there's no nicer way to say it.

I expected to like this movie. Maybe even love it. There were definitely some things I was nervous about, and a few "wait and see" things. But even if I did expect to love it, I didn't expect to love it SO much. It's a perfect sequel to MoS and BvS, but it also recaps so much from BvS that someone who missed that one wouldn't be lost at all. It's not quite a stand-alone movie, but good enough so that even if all a person knew of the League were the character names and nothing else, it could almost be one and they'd still enjoy it. But at the same time, it does what a great sequel should do, and actually enriches the films that came before it. "Justice League" makes MoS and BvS BETTER. If you already liked those movies, that's a great thing; if you didn't, it's definitely worth going back and revisiting those movies with what we know it was all building to, so it can be re-framed into its proper context. Very much of those movies hits harder when you know what it was supposed to symbolize or foreshadow.

It might honestly be Zack Snyder's best movie. Seriously. I don't know if I'd say it was my "favorite", because selfishly a movie with so little of Superman physically present in it by default can't be my "favorite". But man... objectively... yeah, this is probably his all-time best work. And it's probably a decent margin in between this and his next-best, whatever of his movies any individual person would say that is. I think even people who didn't like his other work would honestly agree that this is his Magnum Opus. So far, anyway.

Do I think people who liked the Whedon Cut would like this movie better? I sure would HOPE so, because literally the only thing that one has going for it now is brighter colors and lots of bad jokes, and if that's what a person prefers then that says a lot more about Them than it does about Movies. But regardless of that, even more of the Scotch tape and chicken wire in the Whedon cut is showing, now that we've seen This. This isn't just "A better version of 'Justice League'," it's just plain altogether a better MOVIE than the Whedon Cut could ever hope to be.

I do think people should watch it and decide for themselves, even if MoS and BvS didn't thrill them. Before I actually saw it, I saw no point whatsoever in people who didn't like those movies to bother watching this one. "if you hated Those, of course you'll hate This." I've changed my mind on that. Those people may not LOVE "Zack Snyder's Justice League", but they might at least appreciate it, and dare I say that it might actually surprise and impress them.

I wouldn't have said this before seeing it with my own eyes, but I think both people who love AND people who hate Zack Snyder's style would agree that this is his best work, for whatever that means to them individually. That... I was not expecting whatsoever.

I won't deign to compare it with movies I haven't seen, so I won't get into a whole "Is it better than (insert other super-hero team-up movie Here)?" thing. But do I think that it's honestly one of the best comic book films ever made? YES, I absolutely do, sincerely. There's a few brief moments that won't hit for everyone, and art is subjective, but pound-for-pound I sincerely think this movie not only crafts its own identity but stands tall among the other "giants" of the medium.

It's great. I loved it. I laughed, I cried, I applauded and even cheered out loud, at various points. I can't wait to watch it again.

When the credits rolled, my wife said with heartfelt sincerity, "I wish it were SIX hours long."

To do four hours of "DC's 'Lord of the Rings'" and manage to still leave 'em wanting more by the end is no mean feat. But I dare say, they pulled it off. I want the sequels. Now.

It really is "DC's Lord of the Rings." That's EXACTLY what it was, and that's all I ever wanted.

"Zack Snyder's Justice League" is a tale of grief, loss, hope, triumph, and redemption. Not just for these characters, but for the movie and the man himself.

Art, imitating Life, imitating Art. And it celebrates everything that's wonderful about both of those things.

A+.

[Andrew NDB]

But it still has a sh** Flash. I just want to always point that out.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IMJ

I think most importantly this version of the movie actually paints a huge picture for me regarding Cyborg-guy's ******** in real life. I liked him in both cuts, but it's very clear that Whedon's version removed Cyborg from the heart of the movie, and given Cyborg-guy's complaints now it seems even more like it was sour grapes. Like he knew that his signficant role was reduced and that was his big shot and maybe he threw a fit over that, kicking and screaming abuse and racism the whole ass hole way.

Just to address this real quick:

- Could be partly that. Multiple things could be true at once. I know I'D be furious if such a big role had been stolen from me for nonsense reasons. BUT, other people have also said they had bad experiences with Joss on the JL set. So it just bears well to remember that Ray wasn't the only one saying Joss did wrong; just the loudest one.

- On the subject of "racism" accusations... sometimes, when I watch a movie, things jump out at me whether I want them to or not. And I am definitely not one of those people who screams about "We Need More Diversity!" It's great if it's there and if it fits but if it's not, I don't cry about it.

...But I honestly couldn't help but notice how many "people of color" were done a disservice by the Whedon Cut. I mean seriously, just let's look at it from an objective place, knowing that Snyder's rough cut came first before Whedon took over. Look at what Whedon deemed some of the most "expendable" bits when assembling his cut. Cyborg's entire arc and 90% of his scenes? GONE. His mother? Never even seen or mentioned. His father's big dramatic death scene and heartfelt soliloquy at the end? Thrown out; he vanishes from Whedon's movie and is essentially never seen again, and his big speech at the end about hope and unity and rising is replaced by Lois Lane literally apologizing to the audience for the previous two movies, stopping just short of saying "Sorry we're so 'Dark' you guys!" Iris West? Completely Gone. The Amazons? WERE there even any black Amazons in the Whedon Cut? Because I know I saw a few here and it jumped out at me only because I totally didn't remember there being any in the Whedon version whatsoever. And I was shocked at how much Ryan Choi was in this movie; like I knew he was in Snyder's original plans but we got a LOT of Ryan Choi compared to what I was expecting.

Again, I don't go "looking" for stuff like this. Frankly, if they were going to foreshadow The Atom, I'd prefer it be Ray Palmer, and as for Iris I'm used to her being white so I'd probably prefer that, too. But the fact is, Snyder deliberately chose people of color to be highlighted in positions of prominence in his version of the movie, and ALL of them were either chopped down or discarded completely for Whedon's cut. It really is pretty jarring, once you notice. We got Flash laying on Diana's titties and "What Is Brunch?" and that whole new intro scene that Joss shot for his movie, that stuff "needed" to be there, but GOD FORBID Cyborg have a Mom, or Iris's scene gets left in.

I'm willing to give Joss Whedon the benefit of the doubt. Do I think he's a racist? I don't know him; my gut says "No", but then again until recently I wouldn't have necessarily thought he was a womanizing philanderer who bullied pregnant women into getting abortions and made fun of them for loving Jesus, either, and apparently he is All That. But I can see why some of those choices were actually made. Ryan Choi's role is a bit extraneous and can be cut for length. Alright. Cyborg's entire arc takes up a lot of length, and the material is "too dark" when people are screaming for MCU-style Happy Fun Time super-hero movies, so his backstory, his Mom, and Silas's death all get chopped. I get it. I think it's a Very Bad Choice, but I understand the Why. Iris's scene is long and she never shows up again in this movie, so maybe we don't "need" it to help get Barry's story going. Alright. Again, I think it's a bad thing to trim but I can see why someone would trim it.

I don't THINK these choices were ultimately made "Because Racism". What I DO think, is that if a person wants to make a case out of, "Why were ALL the people of Color cut from the movie entirely? WHY was THAT stuff, specifically, so entirely 'unnecessary' in the face of 'What is Brunch?' or whatever?", then I think that person has a very good case to at least make the point because it's at the least a little bit eyebrow-raising.

Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I don't think Joss cut those things to be racist or out of any kind of sincere malice but the people of color who were originally in the film DID all hit the cutting room floor, while other stuff was added in that definitely wasn't necessary at all. So the whole thing is... well, it's problematic. He'd have a hard time arguing "It was simply cut for length" even if that is the truth, when the stuff he put in was just so, so terrible. I can't fault Ray or anyone for at least raising the point, I had the exact same feelings myself about how odd it was.

And again, you know me well enough to know I don't go looking for these kinds of things to complain about. I'm no "SJW" screaming about how we need to check the boxes or else. It's just a thing I noticed, and if other people want to assume sinister intention behind some of Joss's choices on what needed to be cut... I don't entirely agree with them but I definitely understand why they would feel that way.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But it still has a sh** Flash. I just want to always point that out.

Nah, he's way better here at least than in Whedon's cut.

It's definitely not "Barry Allen", but if they indeed had to use "Barry Allen" instead of Wally and if Flash indeed had to be the team's comedian regardless, then it's fine. It's fine because Barry Allen HAS no personality and so you have lots of room to play around with him. Grant's Flash isn't "Barry Allen", either. Barry Allen is basically just a cipher that writers project character traits onto, and that's partly why I always preferred Wally as the Flash. Wally as Flash was a Character; Barry as Flash was just a costume.

Like, "That's Not Aquaman", either. But like Ezra, Mamoa just does his own thing and injects his own personality into the role, which gives actual life to what would otherwise be a very flat and boring character. Both Aquaman and Barry Allen Flash are not all that interesting when played "straight" to their comic book counterparts; that's why I'm fine with their characters being done so differently whereas I usually prefer fidelity. They're both better for it.

It's a good Flash for what they needed it to be, which is the team's Funny Guy. His jokes do land (and aren't as cringe as what Whedon gave him to work with). It's not a "bad Flash", some people just don't like Ezra Miller's acting specifically. Which is an opinion, sure. I haven't seen him in enough things to have a strong opinion; I heard he was good in "We Need To Talk About Kevin" but I haven't seen that.

He definitely came off more like a scientist than he did in the Whedon cut, that I noticed. He had a much better understanding of his powers, how they affected time, how to use them more effectively, etc. etc. By comparison, yeah, he was "terrible" in the Whedon cut but I'd argue he was MUCH better in this one.

I think it's a little jarring for people because Barry on the TV show isn't "comic relief" and is "just" the heroic protagonist, letting other characters tell the jokes, and in the movie that character is used to an entirely different role and effect. But that has a way of happening with Flash in general; like, in his solo book Wally was a lot more serious than he was in the Justice League comics, where he was mostly either a clown or a pervert. Sometimes that was a little jarring, too; but again, in his own book Wally was The Hero and played straight and when he was in the JL books he had to be The Clown, because that's how team dynamics work.

It's definitely not a bad take on Flash - although it definitely isn't "Barry Allen", but it's probably better that way because Barry is a boring character - it's just that some people don't like Ezra's delivery. That's a conversation. I think he's fine, generally, but much better in this version for sure. His jokes aren't as bad and he's not such a clumsy, cowardly buffoon like Whedon scripted him to be. Yuck.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

-The Society Cut with Joker's missing line

Allegedly, that line was never going to be in the movie and Zack did it for the trailers specifically because he wanted to troll the haters. Like he knew they'd flip their sh*t and swear the whole movie was terrible because he had Joker reference a meme, and they gave exactly the reaction that was expected.

I mean HOW many articles, HOW many YouTube videos, how many hours and hours of conversation and gnashing of teeth over the last few weeks, all came out because there was a trailer where Joker said "We Live In A Society"? How many people specifically swore out loud, "This movie is going to be terrible, BECAUSE here we have Joker saying (_______)"?

And then, come to find it's not even in the damn movie anyways and wasn't going to be.

And people say Zack Snyder has no sense of humor. Dance, puppets, dance! Sh*t was awesome.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

- The scene with Martha and Lois should have just been Martha. Consider the bank really did foreclose on the house, I wonder how he even knew that. It also feels strange unless Martha met up with Lois off-screen at some point before Superman came back to life

- I think we can safely assume that Lois and Martha have at least spoken since Clark's funeral. Given how far away Smallville is from Metropolis, though, and how deep in mourning Lois was, I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't met in person since then.

- I think J'onn's been making it his business to keep tabs on Superman (and those close to him) ever since Superman emerged. It would make sense; Kal-El is the closest being on Earth to J'onn himself, and his debut was a world-changing event. We see him having a vested interest in Superman throughout MoS and BvS, we just have more context for it now. He can read minds, so I have no doubt that he already knew who Superman really was from the start (and him not telling anyone else just makes sense, considering he too is in hiding for the same exact reasons). So I think he would know about the bank foreclosing on Martha's farm because he's probably been watching Clark's family closely for quite some time for his own reasons.

I think the scene works better with him because otherwise, at the end of the movie he just drops in out of nowhere, with no build-up or foreshadowing. The scene after he meets with Lois gives the audience (who may not be familiar with this character) some shorthand information on just what he can do, which is important. I get what you're saying but I honestly think it works better this way. It becomes necessary because of the ending.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Unless I'm remembering wrong weren't their more Diana/Bruce scenes in the 2017 version? I feel like there's some other scenes that aren't in this one.

Yeah, there was plenty more. Joss wanted their "flirtation" and "sexual tension" to be much more prominent, so he had the scenes of him chastising her about Steve Trevor and then the two of them "making up" over drinks later, when she pops his shoulder back in after Superman banged him around. The whole "you can dress like a bat, I won't even sue" bit.

There was still a bit of chemistry between them in this version but it was handled a lot more subtly.

I also can't help but notice that Zack's version of Diana doesn't drink alcohol. I forget if she does in her solo film (or if it even comes up) but in BvS and this one she specifically turns down a drink multiple times and never partakes. Couldn't help but notice that because it happens repeatedly.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So I skimmed through the Whedon version and nearly forgot how many cheesy/terrible jokes it has.

- When Superman/Cyborg pull apart the 3 mother boxes, Superman says, "Now I wish I WERE dead!" and starts laughing. Cyborg responds, "Even my toes are hurting...I don't even know how it's scientifically possible for me to even feel my toes!" and they start laughing on the ground. wtf.

Not word-for-word, but yeah, close enough. That sh*t was TERRIBLE. Even in the theater, I was like, "You just KNOW either Whedon or some WB suit was just offscreen with a bullhorn yelling 'C'mon, laugh! LAUGH! People want 'funny'! We gotta make a billion with this thing! MAKE SURE THEY KNOW THIS IS FUNNY!'"

Dogsh*t on a hot sidewalk. Just the worst.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Also the Batman costume/suit is the best its ever looked in live action. I honestly can't believe how good Batman looks this time, it's like a comic book turn live action. The previous Batman movie costumes were stylized heavily for their movies, but Affleck's Batman looks like the definitive Batman costume.

After seeing this - and especially given how much of Bruce we saw out of costume - I am only more entrenched in my belief that Affleck is the greatest Batman we've ever had or will ever see. He really nailed the part and completely sold the arc he was on that began in BvS.

From "20 years in Gotham... we've seen what promises are worth..." to "Men are still Good..." and finally "Faith, Alfred... Faith!" From a broken man to a Believer. It all comes together and he totally f*cking nailed it.

[Andrew NDB]

Naw, racial stuff aside (which never ever bothered me) Momoa is a fine Orin. Sure they imbued him with a bit of latent surfer dude whatever... but it works, especially in his movie. And it's not even that prevalent. Orin is supposed to be stoic. Momoa exudes stoic. People bow to him and he sells it.

Flash? Unrecognizable. In character or actor or the characterization by the actor (which obviously was dictated by the director... and I do remember Snyder hand picking him because he saw him in that prison movie).

I get it, though. Snyder has read a lot of 80s and 90s Superman and Batman and not much else (as in Flash comics). And he saw a movie with Ezra he liked and he fit the mold of what he wanted to do to round out the team. But it's still bullsh**. Just put Plastic Man on the team and bam, done. There's your comic relief. Maybe in JL2 or 3 we can meet the real Barry Allen when they want to be serious about a real Flash. Guess not.

[Leo656]

Speaking of Aquaman...

I love how in that one shot of him walking off the dock and being engulfed by the waves with his back to the camera, as he's engulfed in shadow the way his unlaced boots flare out to the sides give his silhouette the exact same shape as his classic comic book "fins on the calves" look.

Little things like that always make me snicker. The cinematography in Zack's movies is always great, and full of little Easter eggs like that.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So nobody really mentions this anywhere but why is Steppenwolf a monster in this movie? From what I remember in the cartoons and comics, he just looked like a human in armor in his classic designs. When he takes off his helmet later in the movie he's just all creepy rock monster.

I think for the sake of the movie they just wanted there to be more consistency between how people from Apokolips looked. We didn't see much of Granny Goodness but DeSaad's redesign also gave him a more alien appearance. Just a stylistic choice.

It always seemed odd to me in the comics how everyone else from Apokolips looked rather normal and Darkseid was a big gray Rock Lord for whatever reason. Rather than have to explain why that is, I'm assuming that for the movies they figured it would be easier/better to just have all the Apokoliptians look more "alien" and not just Darkseid.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

It’s annoying how major deniers and “know it all’s” in this scenario just fell back on semantics when they were proven wrong. John Campea likes to stress that he said Snyder’s cut was “never 100% finished” therefore he was right.
No one ever claimed it was 100% finished. Whedon’s JL wasn’t even finished - look at Cavill’s face. I didn’t pretend to know one way or the other whether Snyder had a cut, but that’s why I didn’t roll my eyes and try to shut down people on either side.

All of that sh*t was ridiculous. People have a severe hatred of Snyder (and his fans, no less) that borders on pathological, because they don't like (I'll even be an asshole and say "Don't Get", because a lot of the time that IS the case whether people admit to it or not) the way he makes movies. It's insane.

Not only are you "not allowed" to like his movies, without being shouted down or insulted, in this case even saying you were hopeful for a thing was reason enough to start a whole entire "flame war". I'd say roughly 50% of the entire conversation about comic book movies over the last four years has been "Snyder Cut" arguments, and the rest was conversation about Everything Else. You couldn't even talk about his other movies without it being like blowing a dog whistle. People who never even WATCHED his movies felt the need to chime in and shout down people who said they thought his cut was real and they wanted to see it.

"BRO. Why would you even WANT that, bro? Don't you know he makes bad movies, bro? Bro, it's not even real, bro, and it was real, bro, it'd be f*cking dogsh*t, bro. Everybody knows it but you, bro. Don't be stupid, bro. Nobody wants that anyway, bro. But bro, it totally ain't real, bro."

Glad THAT sh*t's over with. Certain sections of the Internet have been VERY quiet this week, and that silence speaks volumes.

Some websites that traditionally bash Snyder's work and were leading the "There IS no Snyder Cut (and if there were it would suck)!" campaign, haven't bothered putting up any review yet. I can only imagine they're having a very hard time choking down all that crow, long enough to write a review that somehow still condemns Snyder and the movie without simultaneously calling the majority of people who like it morons as they like to do. I knew that was gonna happen. If the movie was in fact bad, places like 411 would have been the first to print crowing reviews of "We Told Ya So!" But since it's good, and most people agree that it's good, they ain't saying sh*t until the dust settles more.

Cowards.