Some advice

ForSquirtleMyNurtle · 11-13-2003, 01:33 AM

Hello everyone.

So I know that I've rubbed a few of you the wrong way, but now I need some serious advice. I'm a graduate student in comparative literatures doing a thesis of Faulkner and Conrad, but I just was notified by a professor of mine that there is a special grant being offered by my school's lit department to do thesis research of comic book heroes. Obviously I want to do Ninja Turtles, since I've been thinking of it for a while. And I do my analysis from a Foucaultian/Lacanian postmodern language theory perspective and so I want to focus on what the turtles symbolize/signify, but to go beyond the simple good/evil paradigm. What cultural issues do they represent and how does culture and language motivate them? So I'm going to ask all of you to let me know what you think about symbolism in the series (let's stick to the E&L comics, the focus will probably eventually be narrowed to a volume or so, but for now we can have a wide open comics discussion) I'm mostly interested in language, and by that I mean not only what they say but also the artwork (since it is part of the "language" the artist is using to express his vision). I know this is sort of strange and vague, but it could help immensely. And if any of you are also into Lacan/Foucault and have more specific PoMo offerings, I'd love those as well.

*heretic888* · 11-13-2003, 01:34 PM

As I understand it, I would say the original Mirage TMNT delve into a few significant themes:

- Basic coming-of-age story. The story of four teenage brothers coming of age and trying to survive in a world in which they are, essentially, outsiders and outcasts.

- Circle of violence/vengeance theme. This especially comes into play with the City at War story.

- Transcendence of a rigid dualism of "good" and "evil". This also comes into play with City at War, in which the TMNT find they must work with "the enemy" to destory a greater threat and grow past the narrow confines of "honor"; and Splinter must force himself to cannibalism if the situation calls on it.

- Isolation and loneliness theme. Story of four beings that are the only ones of their species/kind, trying to survive in a world in which they are utterly destined to be alone forever.

That's all I can think for now. Laterz.

**Karpo_007** · 11-13-2003, 01:41 PM

Can't think of anything to add.

*Cascadia* · 11-13-2003, 02:31 PM

relationship between family members/friends

**Karpo_007** · 11-13-2003, 03:24 PM

Thats a good one actually.

**Machias Banshee** · 11-13-2003, 03:32 PM

Family is definitely an important theme...

Savanti Romero · 11-13-2003, 03:50 PM

For culture impact, you could write about their pizza and food preference. Also a lot of the things they say, are from American culture? Even the new "What the shell?" has impact from another phrase? I don't know, this isn't great, but it sounded better in my mind.

*heretic888* · 11-13-2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

For culture impact, you could write about their pizza and food preference. Also a lot of the things they say, are from American culture? Even the new "What the shell?" has impact from another phrase? I don't know, this isn't great, but it sounded better in my mind.

Um, Savanti, I think he was trying to focus mostly on the Mirage characters and story.

Savanti Romero · 11-13-2003, 04:09 PM

Oh yeah. Whoops.

**Nturtle** · 11-13-2003, 05:31 PM

I would also mention service to society, the Turtles protect and save people all the time, but rarely are given thanks for their good deeds, like in Raphael 1, when the lady screams after seeing Raph.

**Karpo_007** · 11-13-2003, 05:35 PM

They don't go out patrolling to save people from trouble, but if they happen to be around when something happens, they do stop the bad guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donatello

We are not protectors of society, we never were.

OA · 11-13-2003, 06:00 PM

FEAR...fear plays such an important, underlying part in the entire series..the fear of discovery...fear of acceptance....fear of not being able to always suceed...the fear of the unknown...it goes on and on..

just my 2 cents...

*Cascadia* · 11-13-2003, 06:33 PM

they do not start fights....and they only fight when they have to

**HorseTechie** · 11-13-2003, 07:06 PM

Reminds me of...

Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scared. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: Miyagi have hope for you.

Hey.. if it wasn't for me falling in love with the Karate Kid, I prolly would have not liked the TMNT as much. Of course, the movie and the cartoon TMNT try to go by this, while the comic was focused more on revenge. Just to reinterate, the main reason that Splinter taught the Turtles Ninjustu was to avoid really bad conflicts with the human world. Or so Splinter sez to the Turtles, to cover his real plans.

ForSquirtleMyNurtle · 11-14-2003, 01:25 AM

Thanks everyone. I really appreciated the "fear of acceptance" bit. I think that's a fascinating angle that I hadn't thought of. Fear and loneliness obviously resonate throughout the story (and throughout all of our lives) but that idea is intriguing. They (we in symbolic form) wish to be accepted for who we are, but at the same time are afraid to be taken in and loved by the world. It's an interesting philosophical point and has potential to be of major impact in the theoretical workings. So thanks! An interesting point: nearly all superhero stories hinge on a central Christ-myth. Superman is the obvious example, a being of otherworldly power sent to Earth to serve humanity. Batman is a darker, bleaker version of a similar story. But the Turtles seems to defy any Christ comparison. For one thing, there are too many of them, but I think it's a fascinating idea. The lack at the center of the story is a grounding myth, and the lack reveals the Real, as Lacan might say. Anyway, thanks and keep it coming if you've any more ideas. I need to write up a grant proposal within a week, so anything you've got throw at me.

**Karpo_007** · 11-14-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scienctific freak

they do not start fights....and they only fight when they have to

Thats not entirely true, They challenged Oroku Saki in the very first issue and Infiltrated the Foot HQ during Return To New York. And they helped Karai to get rid off the Shredder elite during City at War.

Lone Wolf · 11-15-2003, 05:39 PM

I have heard everyone from Santa Clause to Gandalf depicted as a Christ figure at one point or another, I just want to hear how Batman fits the bill. IMO, plenty of heros don't fit the Christ archetype (although Superman and Hercules probably do ). For Example:

The Ninja Turtles
Batman
Spider-Man
Achilles
Theseus
King Arthur
Odysseus
Robin Hood

**Nturtle** · 11-15-2003, 05:49 PM

No, those guys tend to be closer to the antihero side of the spectrum. The Mirage TMNT would fall under there too. Just look as "City as War".

The christ comparisions, I think can only fit in unambiguous sitiuations, unlike ones the turtles often find themselves in. Guys like Super Man and Hercules know whos bad and whos good.

Lone Wolf · 11-15-2003, 08:49 PM

The Ninja Turtles I'll give you, but

Batman
Spider-Man
Achilles
Theseus
King Arthur
Odysseus
Robin Hood

Are Anti-Heros?

~~Tokka-B~~ · 11-15-2003, 09:53 PM

I'd say those (other than Batman and Spiderman) are heros, not super heros.....but definately not anti-heros. Anti-heros are villains, I think you mean alter-ego heros.

11-13-2003, 01:33 AM	#1
ForSquirtleMyNurtle Random Punk Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 24	Some advice Hello everyone. So I know that I've rubbed a few of you the wrong way, but now I need some serious advice. I'm a graduate student in comparative literatures doing a thesis of Faulkner and Conrad, but I just was notified by a professor of mine that there is a special grant being offered by my school's lit department to do thesis research of comic book heroes. Obviously I want to do Ninja Turtles, since I've been thinking of it for a while. And I do my analysis from a Foucaultian/Lacanian postmodern language theory perspective and so I want to focus on what the turtles symbolize/signify, but to go beyond the simple good/evil paradigm. What cultural issues do they represent and how does culture and language motivate them? So I'm going to ask all of you to let me know what you think about symbolism in the series (let's stick to the E&L comics, the focus will probably eventually be narrowed to a volume or so, but for now we can have a wide open comics discussion) I'm mostly interested in language, and by that I mean not only what they say but also the artwork (since it is part of the "language" the artist is using to express his vision). I know this is sort of strange and vague, but it could help immensely. And if any of you are also into Lacan/Foucault and have more specific PoMo offerings, I'd love those as well.

11-13-2003, 01:34 PM	#2
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm As I understand it, I would say the original Mirage TMNT delve into a few significant themes: - Basic coming-of-age story. The story of four teenage brothers coming of age and trying to survive in a world in which they are, essentially, outsiders and outcasts. - Circle of violence/vengeance theme. This especially comes into play with the City at War story. - Transcendence of a rigid dualism of "good" and "evil". This also comes into play with City at War, in which the TMNT find they must work with "the enemy" to destory a greater threat and grow past the narrow confines of "honor"; and Splinter must force himself to cannibalism if the situation calls on it. - Isolation and loneliness theme. Story of four beings that are the only ones of their species/kind, trying to survive in a world in which they are utterly destined to be alone forever. That's all I can think for now. Laterz. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

11-13-2003, 02:31 PM	#4
Cascadia Oregonian in heart & soul Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,731	relationship between family members/friends __________________ Formally known as Scientific freak

11-13-2003, 03:50 PM	#7
Savanti Romero Stone Warrior Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 600	For culture impact, you could write about their pizza and food preference. Also a lot of the things they say, are from American culture? Even the new "What the shell?" has impact from another phrase? I don't know, this isn't great, but it sounded better in my mind. __________________ "The sceptor has returned at last; and it's all mine!" -Savanti Romero, Vol. 1 issue 47 1992 AKA: [email protected] utromheadquarters.0catch.com

11-13-2003, 04:09 PM	#9
Savanti Romero Stone Warrior Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 600	Oh yeah. Whoops. __________________ "The sceptor has returned at last; and it's all mine!" -Savanti Romero, Vol. 1 issue 47 1992 AKA: [email protected] utromheadquarters.0catch.com

11-13-2003, 01:41 PM	#3
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Can't think of anything to add.

11-13-2003, 03:24 PM	#5
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Thats a good one actually.

11-13-2003, 03:32 PM	#6
Machias Banshee Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 17,163	Family is definitely an important theme...

11-13-2003, 05:31 PM	#10
Nturtle Ninja Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Technodrome Airducts Posts: 5,215	I would also mention service to society, the Turtles protect and save people all the time, but rarely are given thanks for their good deeds, like in Raphael 1, when the lady screams after seeing Raph. __________________ Fil rules. If Fil takes your 5 bucks then you should be eternally grateful that Fil would even borrow your money. Fil.

11-13-2003, 06:00 PM	#12
OA Scatter the nuns!! Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,981	FEAR...fear plays such an important, underlying part in the entire series..the fear of discovery...fear of acceptance....fear of not being able to always suceed...the fear of the unknown...it goes on and on.. just my 2 cents... __________________

11-13-2003, 06:33 PM	#13
Cascadia Oregonian in heart & soul Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,731	they do not start fights....and they only fight when they have to __________________ Formally known as Scientific freak

11-13-2003, 07:06 PM	#14
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Reminds me of... Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid? Miyagi: Huh - plenty. Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right? Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same. Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate. Miyagi: Someone always know more. Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight? Miyagi: Always scared. Miyagi hate fighting. Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate. Miyagi: So? Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight. Miyagi: That what you think? Daniel: No. Miyagi: Then why train? Daniel: So I won't have to fight. Miyagi: Miyagi have hope for you. Hey.. if it wasn't for me falling in love with the Karate Kid, I prolly would have not liked the TMNT as much. Of course, the movie and the cartoon TMNT try to go by this, while the comic was focused more on revenge. Just to reinterate, the main reason that Splinter taught the Turtles Ninjustu was to avoid really bad conflicts with the human world. Or so Splinter sez to the Turtles, to cover his real plans.

11-14-2003, 01:25 AM	#15
ForSquirtleMyNurtle Random Punk Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 24	Thanks everyone. I really appreciated the "fear of acceptance" bit. I think that's a fascinating angle that I hadn't thought of. Fear and loneliness obviously resonate throughout the story (and throughout all of our lives) but that idea is intriguing. They (we in symbolic form) wish to be accepted for who we are, but at the same time are afraid to be taken in and loved by the world. It's an interesting philosophical point and has potential to be of major impact in the theoretical workings. So thanks! An interesting point: nearly all superhero stories hinge on a central Christ-myth. Superman is the obvious example, a being of otherworldly power sent to Earth to serve humanity. Batman is a darker, bleaker version of a similar story. But the Turtles seems to defy any Christ comparison. For one thing, there are too many of them, but I think it's a fascinating idea. The lack at the center of the story is a grounding myth, and the lack reveals the Real, as Lacan might say. Anyway, thanks and keep it coming if you've any more ideas. I need to write up a grant proposal within a week, so anything you've got throw at me.

11-15-2003, 05:39 PM	#17
Lone Wolf Foot Soldier Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 160	I have heard everyone from Santa Clause to Gandalf depicted as a Christ figure at one point or another, I just want to hear how Batman fits the bill. IMO, plenty of heros don't fit the Christ archetype (although Superman and Hercules probably do ). For Example: The Ninja Turtles Batman Spider-Man Achilles Theseus King Arthur Odysseus Robin Hood __________________ "You may destroy me... but I will not live in fear!"

11-15-2003, 05:49 PM	#18
Nturtle Ninja Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Technodrome Airducts Posts: 5,215	No, those guys tend to be closer to the antihero side of the spectrum. The Mirage TMNT would fall under there too. Just look as "City as War". The christ comparisions, I think can only fit in unambiguous sitiuations, unlike ones the turtles often find themselves in. Guys like Super Man and Hercules know whos bad and whos good. __________________ Fil rules. If Fil takes your 5 bucks then you should be eternally grateful that Fil would even borrow your money. Fil.

11-15-2003, 08:49 PM	#19
Lone Wolf Foot Soldier Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 160	The Ninja Turtles I'll give you, but Batman Spider-Man Achilles Theseus King Arthur Odysseus Robin Hood Are Anti-Heros? __________________ "You may destroy me... but I will not live in fear!"

11-15-2003, 09:53 PM	#20
~~Tokka-B~~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Lost Sewer Posts: 1,829	I'd say those (other than Batman and Spiderman) are heros, not super heros.....but definately not anti-heros. Anti-heros are villains, I think you mean alter-ego heros.