Displeased with the 2003 Toy Line

[TheCloneRanger]

I got off on a tangent in the Post All Toy Sightings Here! thread, and at the wise suggestion of rayfillet101, I'm moving my rant here. Hopefully I can get some more input from it, and can keep the PATSH thread from going completely off topic:

Originally Posted by Snailman

...

But characters from the old show being included in that line up sounds good to me duder!


-Snailman

I have nothing against the idea of seeing vinty figures redone, but why? I was thinking about this a couple of days ago (in the shower, to top it off), and I'm kinda displeased with the Playmates TMNT line. Why, you may be asking? TMNT toys first started coming out in 1988...16 years ago. 16 years ago, the internet was a rumor, computers took up city blocks, Michael Jackson was in trouble for sexual misconduct, and a Bush was in the White House.

Bad example.

But we've come a long way since 1988. Look at Star Wars (1985) compared to today's VOTC figures and, yes, the dreaded "Marvel Legends comparison." 16 years has given us amazing advancement in action figures, and PM is snubbing their nose at ALL of those advancements. Articulation, sculpting, accessories...you could put a '88 and a '03 Leonardo side by side, there's no quality difference. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, the 1988 and 2003 lines blend together perfectly. And they shouldn't. The same bland, "smooth" figures just don't cut it with me anymore. If they were to redo a figure like Bebop, Rocksteady, or any other retro character, chances are it would look so similar to the original, they might as well just rerelease THAT. And in fact, give them a couple of years. I have no doubts that they will.

The best example I can think of is Mattel's defunct He-Man line. Case-assortment problems aside, compare the old ones to the new ones, as sculpted by the 4H. They aren't articulated out the wha-zoo, but look at the detailing. They're clearly still He-Man figures, cut from the same cloth as the 80's versions, but with 2000 sculpting and paint processes.

I'm just saying, Playmates has dropped the ball here. And lets face it, the TMNT figures we have (figures of the actual 4 TMNT), don't even look like their show counter-part. They simply look like RESCULPTED '80s turtles! Somebody want to say Playmates didn't have source material to look at when they sculpted that early first wave? Bulls**t. The Foot and Shredder came out a matter of weeks later, and look like their show's counterpart.


Maybe I'm just in a bad mood because I can't find my Utrom, while I see hundreds (literally) of Space Turtles when I go on toy runs, or maybe I'm just looking at this line with a nonbiased mind for once...but I see it quickly going the way of the original line. The man who was quoted as saying that the Xtreme Sports Turtles would "be the furthest we go away from what you actually see in the show" in Lee's AFD was fired, correct? Ironic. With all the Turtle rehashes coming out, just give them time. We'll start seeing misc. mutants before too long. Even if they're never on the show, just give it time. Playmates will milk that cash cow for all it's worth. I'm just glad the people over the show have more sense than that.

These are toys based on cartoon characters, and are sculpted as such. Smooth lines, large areas of non-detail, but I'm tired of that. I don't want to insult anybody here, because I'm still buying the figures too. But as a consumer, I feel the right to complain.

The way I see it, this may (and probably will) be the last time we see TMNT. One rebirth is amazing, two probably won't happen. I'm going to ride the ship as long as it stays afloat this time, buying all the action figures along the way. I would just really like to see something nicer.

[/soapbox]

Edit: To clarify one thing, I would also like to see some of the vintage Mutants redone. But not in the style of the current line. It's too much like the original. Get the 4H on board, or someone with some better sculpting talent, then we'll talk.

[cqb101]

And as I said in that thread, I wholeheartedly agree. Bravo!

[The Hedge]

I have to agree too, I was really disappointed with the new figures.
The best sculpts imo are Leonardo and the Triceratons, even though Raph's my fave, I wasn't too fond of his sculpt.
The turtles themselves should look bigger and stronger, well pretty much like they do in the cartoon they're based on, and that's the thing.
When I watch an episode of the cartoon, I find myself wishing they'd look like their TV counterparts.

[TheCloneRanger]

Exactly. The turtles themselves are "decent" figures. They're the Ninja Turtles, have all the required parts, the right colors and brown pads, but that's it. The cartoon turtles are more "blocky" or angular (for lack of better words), and slimmer. These have the same proportions of the old line. Even Splinter looks like he was probably designed based on old art work, with an updated head.

To me, the best figures in this line have been the Nanobot, Foot Elite, and Armorized Shredder. Figures such as Stonebiter, Foot Tech, and April suffer from what I was talking about: way too much "open" area with no detailing, and no paint wash. Stonebiter in particular looks like a Happy Meal toy.

[cqb101]

I think after we get a good amount of insightful replies we should e-mail this thread to playmates and see what they say.

[moonfog]

my main problem with playmates has been that they were never able to produce toon accurate action figures, the closest likeness of the turtles i'd say to the vint line they got were the toon turtles, and even then did they go overboard with the exaggerated facial expressions like they had been licking toads or something, and shredder was just taken from the first series and repainted toon accurately.
that reminds me, was i dreaming about this or did i read from this board that playmates were thinking of redoing the vint turtles toon accurately this time? sounds good, but it would be cool if some other company can pick up the tmnt license, such as NECA, macfarlane, SOTA or some other company who can be relied on to get source material accurate figures and not go cheap on them.

[Snailman]

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

I got off on a tangent in the Post All Toy Sightings Here! thread, and at the wise suggestion of rayfillet101, I'm moving my rant here. Hopefully I can get some more input from it, and can keep the PATSH thread from going completely off topic:

Fair enough duder, fire away & I shall read & respond to it accordingly.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

I have nothing against the idea of seeing vinty figures redone, but why? I was thinking about this a couple of days ago (in the shower, to top it off), and I'm kinda displeased with the Playmates TMNT line. Why, you may be asking? TMNT toys first started coming out in 1988...16 years ago. 16 years ago, the internet was a rumor, computers took up city blocks, Michael Jackson was in trouble for sexual misconduct, and a Bush was in the White House.

Bad example.

Heh heh.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

But we've come a long way since 1988. Look at Star Wars (1985) compared to today's VOTC figures and, yes, the dreaded "Marvel Legends comparison." 16 years has given us amazing advancement in action figures, and PM is snubbing their nose at ALL of those advancements. Articulation, sculpting, accessories...you could put a '88 and a '03 Leonardo side by side, there's no quality difference. Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, the 1988 and 2003 lines blend together perfectly. And they shouldn't. The same bland, "smooth" figures just don't cut it with me anymore. If they were to redo a figure like Bebop, Rocksteady, or any other retro character, chances are it would look so similar to the original, they might as well just rerelease THAT. And in fact, give them a couple of years. I have no doubts that they will.

::nods:: I agree with you a little bit here. The parts about the articulation & accessories being similiar, that seems to be right on the money, but the blending together of the two lines I don't agree with 100%. The sculpting for the new line is more based on the cartoon show & they don't share the stupidly-high levels of detail that some (not all of them) of the old figures had. General Tragg & Muckman had so much stuff going on, on their sculpts that painting everything would've cost playmates a fortune. Also, the new figures are in a slightly larger size scale. My Raph figure from the new line is a good inch or two taller then my Groundchuck figure- whom was pretty tall in the old line.

Maybe I'm missing your point, & I totally applogise if I am, but if they sculpted brand new figures of old TMNT characters with the same articulation of the new figures, that would be a bad thing?

::thinks:: Wait, yeah, actually you're right. Why would I want a new-sculpt Rocksteady or other old-school TMNT character if it's be just as poseable as the new figures are?? The first wave of new TMNT figures had good articulation- everyone had ball jointed shoulders & hips & I think an additional two points of articulation. I'm a some-what fan of articulation. I like figures to have ball-jointed shoulders (& possibly hips if it can be done right) & to have 10 PoA all together. Super-crazy amounts like Marvel Legends is cool, but tends to make figures a bit junky & easily smashed. I dunno, I like to phyiscally play with my toys & I know a few less PoA tend to keep them from getting busted.

Then again, this is just my opinion on articulation, so I dunno if it really factors into what's being said.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

The best example I can think of is Mattel's defunct He-Man line. Case-assortment problems aside, compare the old ones to the new ones, as sculpted by the 4H. They aren't articulated out the wha-zoo, but look at the detailing. They're clearly still He-Man figures, cut from the same cloth as the 80's versions, but with 2000 sculpting and paint processes.

::nods:: Yes, those figures were awesome. Ball jointed shoulders & hips, wrist swivels, waist & neck articulation. They could have benefited from a few more points of articulation, maybe the knees? And Mattel can't say crap about not wanting to do knees cause it'd make the figure more fragile. Why? Well their defunct 1989-90 HE-MAN toyline had jointed knees & their new Batman figures also have jointed knees, not to mention their JLA toyline.

I have to agree that the sculpting of the new 2003 & on TMNT figures isn't what we're used to. Sure the first few old-school TMNT figures weren't sculpted out the wazzo, but once the line got moving they got some VERY nice sculpts out of it (muckman, general tragg, etc.). They didn't copy the old cartoon back in the day, so why the sudden change of having these figures copy the ones on the show? My guess is they think they wouldn't sell as well, but that didn't stop kids from buying Ray Fillet figures or figures from other characters they never saw on the show (if Ray Fillet was on the show, it was unknown to me when I wrote this ).

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

I'm just saying, Playmates has dropped the ball here. And lets face it, the TMNT figures we have (figures of the actual 4 TMNT), don't even look like their show counter-part. They simply look like RESCULPTED '80s turtles! Somebody want to say Playmates didn't have source material to look at when they sculpted that early first wave? Bulls**t. The Foot and Shredder came out a matter of weeks later, and look like their show's counterpart.

The only problems I really have with the 4 original 2003 Turtles is their poses. Don has thee hardest time standing up, & the battle-armor one is near impossible to stand up. I'm not gung-ho about show-accurate TMNT, as my guess they'd loose even more detail in the process. Look at the JL toyline from Mattel- the source material (the Justice League cartoon) doesn't have super detailed animation & I think the new TMNT cartoon is very similiar. I dunno, all I say is I'm annoyed they couldn't put ball-jointed shoulders on Stone Biter or the Triceratons. Their shoulders are almost already ball-shaped so it wouldn't have screwed up the sculpt or anything.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood because I can't find my Utrom, while I see hundreds (literally) of Space Turtles when I go on toy runs, or maybe I'm just looking at this line with a nonbiased mind for once...but I see it quickly going the way of the original line. The man who was quoted as saying that the Xtreme Sports Turtles would "be the furthest we go away from what you actually see in the show" in Lee's AFD was fired, correct? Ironic. With all the Turtle rehashes coming out, just give them time. We'll start seeing misc. mutants before too long. Even if they're never on the show, just give it time. Playmates will milk that cash cow for all it's worth. I'm just glad the people over the show have more sense than that.

Okay, here's my opinion on what you said (all the variants & stuff): As a kid, & keep in mind when I got into collecting TMNT I was around 9 or 10 (& bought the figures until I was 13 or 14) I never bought every single TMNT variant they made. I can go right now upstairs & next to my bed grab the stack of TMNT clip'n'collect "Tech Specs" that every TMNT figure came with that I've saved since I was younger & see which ones I bought. Hell, some of those were even gifts so that might not be a 100% solid way to tell.

Okay, lemme start over: As a kid collecting TMNT I only bought a few different versions of the TMNT. ::gets tech-specs cut outs: Okay, lemme see what TMNT variants I had as kid...okay, around 8 or so different versions of the 4 turtles I bought as a kid. The majority of these bios are of non-turtles. I'd like the new toyline to have more of that in it. Getting new characters to pal-around with the TMNT was always something I looked forward to as a kid. Well, that & getting more Foot factioned mutants too.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

These are toys based on cartoon characters, and are sculpted as such. Smooth lines, large areas of non-detail, but I'm tired of that. I don't want to insult anybody here, because I'm still buying the figures too. But as a consumer, I feel the right to complain.

::claps:: Yes, here-here I agree with you 100% on what you just said. I also am tired of that smooth lines & large areas of non-detailed stuff. For cripes sake, General Tragg had a squished pet turtle sculpted onto the bottom of his boot. It took me years before I even noticed it was sculpted there, but when I saw it i thought it was so cool. They even managed to top him when they made the Muckman figure. A person could spend a good 30 minutes to an hour trying to figure out all the stuff sculpted on Muckman too.

These new TMNT figures are very blocky & not nearly as animated (which is ironic as they're sculpted from animated characters ) in terms of poses & stuff. Look at the Silver Sentry. He reminds me of one of Mattel's JLA (or is it just JL?) figures. No personality, just blah I'm here standing to get a mug-shot taken.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

The way I see it, this may (and probably will) be the last time we see TMNT. One rebirth is amazing, two probably won't happen. I'm going to ride the ship as long as it stays afloat this time, buying all the action figures along the way. I would just really like to see something nicer.

[/soapbox]

Yeah, I agree with you duder. Playmates needs to get the guys who sculpted the original TMNT toyline onboard, they did awesome work. When the time goes to sell all my toys to pay bills when I'm older or whatever, the only toyline I'll keep will totally be my TMNT collection (..and possibly some Xevoz, Masters of the Universe & HE-MAN figures. ). These new TMNT figures? Not nearly as cool.

A Leatherhead figure without a moving jaw to bite stuff? What the hell is that crap playmates??

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Edit: To clarify one thing, I would also like to see some of the vintage Mutants redone. But not in the style of the current line. It's too much like the original. Get the 4H on board, or someone with some better sculpting talent, then we'll talk.

::nods:: True, although I can't agree with you 100% on these figures being too much like the old ones in terms of sculpting. Just compare one of those stupidly-detailed old figures I mentioned to one of the new figures & you'll see the old toyline, once it got going, was VERY well sculpted.

-Snailman

[Snailman]

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Exactly. The turtles themselves are "decent" figures. They're the Ninja Turtles, have all the required parts, the right colors and brown pads, but that's it. The cartoon turtles are more "blocky" or angular (for lack of better words), and slimmer. These have the same proportions of the old line.

True, but the old figures were a bit shorter too. Old school turtles compared to the new Leatherhead figure, for example, actually makes him look in scale.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

To me, the best figures in this line have been the Nanobot, Foot Elite, and Armorized Shredder. Figures such as Stonebiter, Foot Tech, and April suffer from what I was talking about: way too much "open" area with no detailing, and no paint wash. Stonebiter in particular looks like a Happy Meal toy.

The Nanobot is an awesome figure. Cool features, VERY good articulation on the shoulders (not quite ball joints, but allows for juust the right amount of poseablility).

And you're right Stone Biter does look like a happy meal toy. I'd be more happy with him if he:
1) Had ball jointed shoulders
2) More details (like you said)
&
3) Hands that can actually hold something

-Snailman

[TheCloneRanger]

Snailman, whether you meant to or not, I think a couple of things you said illustrated the point i was trying to make terrifically. Figures like Traag, Muckman (a terrific example), and the uber-creepy Mutagen Man were all scuplted in ultra detail, details that weren't there on the show, but that Playmates put in anyway. If anything, those figures were ahead of their time, and puts the new series to shame. Not only were the figures detailed, but the sculptors clearly had a sense of humor about it, too.

I made most of my observations at work today, where I couldn't look at my figures for comparisons. Just as an example, comparing the new Don to the original Don, I still think they're very similar. There's definitely a scale difference (old figures are smaller). If anything, as you said, the sculpting on the vintage figures is superior. More muscles sculpted in, more detail on the shell (front and back), and the vintage figures have VEINS SCULPTED IN THEIR ARMS!

If nothing else, this thread is making me realize exactly how good the old figures were. And how disappointed I remain in the new ones.

As for why I want show accurate figures now as opposed to then...well, first of all, I didn't have the internet to complain on back then. Plus, in the '88 line, the figures were super-detailed, but not necesarily show-accurate. The '03 line is what? Neither super-detailed OR show accurate?

[Snailman]

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Snailman, whether you meant to or not, I think a couple of things you said illustrated the point i was trying to make terrifically.

Awesome! Always better that I accidently do some good, then do something bad.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Figures like Traag, Muckman (a terrific example), and the uber-creepy Mutagen Man were all scuplted in ultra detail, details that weren't there on the show, but that Playmates put in anyway. If anything, those figures were ahead of their time, and puts the new series to shame. Not only were the figures detailed, but the sculptors clearly had a sense of humor about it, too.

Aye, & what makes me scratch my head even more is the new line has less detailing but costs us roughly a few bucks more then it did at Kay-Bee Toys back in the day. Back when the line first came out, & up until it went bye-be, a TMNT figure would run you $3.99 at Toys-R-Us & $5.99 at Kay-Bee Toys. Now it's $5.99 at TRU & $6.99 at K-B Toys. I can understand the price increase if it's due to the figures now being larger & having better accessories (none of the same weapons all being cast in the same color plastic in the new line), but if it's due to sculpting being cheaper that's a dumb excuse.

The old line had shorter, more detailed figures & cost roughly 4 bucks a pop. You could get two TMNT figures for just under 10 dollars & now a 10-spot won't cover two TMNT figures. Maybe it's just inflation though? Who knows, but it still seems fishy to me & not in a Ray Fillet kind of fishy either.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

I made most of my observations at work today, where I couldn't look at my figures for comparisons. Just as an example, comparing the new Don to the original Don, I still think they're very similar. There's definitely a scale difference (old figures are smaller). If anything, as you said, the sculpting on the vintage figures is superior. More muscles sculpted in, more detail on the shell (front and back), and the vintage figures have VEINS SCULPTED IN THEIR ARMS!

::nods:: YES, exactly. Now the turtles have none of that for detailing. I don't have a clue why they changed things- have that many of the original toylines creators left the company? Hell, TMNT put Playmates on the frickin' map, you'd think they'd show a bit more respect & stuff for the figures detailing since if it wasn't for a bunch of mutant animals odds are they'd not even be IN the action figure market these days. Stinkin' ingrates..

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

If nothing else, this thread is making me realize exactly how good the old figures were. And how disappointed I remain in the new ones.

Yeah, but I've known this for months. Just glad some people other then myself caught onto this way of thinkin. The old line didn't have ball-jointed shoulders (well Tatoo & Ace Duck did), but the awesome sculpting made their measly 7 points of articulation not that bad.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

As for why I want show accurate figures now as opposed to then...well, first of all, I didn't have the internet to complain on back then.

Ah the internet, the place where anyone anywhere can bitch about toys & look up porn at the same time.

Originally Posted by TheCloneRanger

Plus, in the '88 line, the figures were super-detailed, but not necesarily show-accurate. The '03 line is what? Neither super-detailed OR show accurate?

Yeah! What the heck!? We need at least one or the other Playmates, make up your minds & pick one.

Hell, all I wanna see in the new line up are figures based on the Big Brawl episodes but detailed or with ball joints this time.

-Snailman

[BigApple3AM]

I didn't know where to share it or if anyone would have cared but I emailed the prez of SOTA toys and asked him if he was interested in making movie accurate tmnt figures, and here's what he said:

i tried to get involved with TMNT but Playmates was not interested

Sincerely,

Jerry Macaluso
President
SOTA Toys Inc

Looks like we'll never get movie accurate tmnt figures. Not dissing the old rubber ones from the old school line (and the best line at that) it's just I would have liked to have seen really super accurate with riddick like articulation.

I agree wholeheartedly. This new line has been somewhat disappointing. I like the regular and the battle armor turtles, but they could be so much better at the same time. The monsters, foot tech ninja, and casey jones have all been huge failures in my eyes, but the kids seem to eat them up. I think the only figure that could work with limited articulation is fugitoid, he doens't really need it. I wouldn't mind if they continued making sub-par figures for the new line, but did something like what hasbro is doing for transformers. Make the regular toys kiddy like, but make a smaller more detailed line for collectors (alternators). They take old school characters that the kiddies wouldn't really enjoy and boost up the sculpt while retaining the old school feel. If they did this with tmnt, I think I would crap myself. Disgusting, but I don't think I could control myself. j/k

[cqb101]

God damn it. I woulda really liked to see figs from SOTA. Even if it was just one or two figures in their Now Playing line. I wonder if NECA ever tried? Hmmmmmm........

[JaffleMan]

I agree with a lot of the points mad in this thread but to me now seeing how each new figure seems to be lacking so much in "what could have been" I think it's just come to the fact that Playmates doesn't care.

I don't really believe they care what us collector's think as they "know" we will buy most of the crap they spin out no matter how little effort was put into it. I think they are concentrating more on gimmicks and such to attract the kids and are neglecting other features of the toys they are producing to save on costs (such as detail). They really don't care what you "thought" of the toy, as long as you have "bought" the toy. This is why to me a lot of the new figures seem to be lacking soul.

I don't believe anything we send to playmates is going to persuade them to make any changes as they are marketing this line at kids (and the parents buying these for their kids).

I think the best step to take to make a difference is to persuade somebody else who has major influence over the line to step in and wrangle things around a bit. Maybe Eastman and Laird but from what I understand they don't have any real control over what gets produced in the toyline. And even if they do, I don't think they are aware of the problems the new figures have, I seriously doubt either of them play with any (if any) of the TMNT figures they own.

[Spitfire]

Im cool with the new toys, except that super hero dude Mikey teams up with. He moves like a large burger king toy

[Snailman]

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I agree with a lot of the points mad in this thread but to me now seeing how each new figure seems to be lacking so much in "what could have been" I think it's just come to the fact that Playmates doesn't care.

This is always a possibility...::thinks:: Hmmmm. Wait a second. I remember someone had said somewhere that the reason Playmates didn't go to the SDCC this year was because of 2 reasons: 1) Their Simpsons line is dead & that was pretty much a collector-driven line. & 2) They didn't believe (& this part is crucial so I'll put it in bold print) that TMNT was a toyline that isn't aimed at collectors & is more for children. If such is the actual case, then that could be reason why Playmates "doesn't care" as you put it. If it's a toyline they're just aiming at the kiddies, then they couldn't give two poops what we have to say, right?

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I don't really believe they care what us collector's think as they "know" we will buy most of the crap they spin out no matter how little effort was put into it. I think they are concentrating more on gimmicks and such to attract the kids and are neglecting other features of the toys they are producing to save on costs (such as detail). They really don't care what you "thought" of the toy, as long as you have "bought" the toy. This is why to me a lot of the new figures seem to be lacking soul.

See part of what you said I don't think can be a factor, or if it is, then something else doesn't add up. Check out what you just said:

"I think they are concentrating more on gimmicks and such to attract the kids and are neglecting other features of the toys they are producing to save on costs (such as detail)."

This seems to be a very good theory, but if it's true then it doesn't make much sense to me. Okay, the old toyline was a bit different right? The figures were shorter, cheaper & more detailed. Okay, here's some stuff I've figured with the old toyline, now I might ramble a bit here but stick with it cause odds are it'll make sense in the end.

Old TMNT Toyline Things that kept costs down (I'm guessing):

• Scale: Old TMNT figures were in the 3"-to- 4 1/2" scale & thus used less plastic to make themselves.

• Non-painted Accessories: Old TMNT figures all had their accessories cast in the same color plastic resin. Very rarely did I see a TMNT figure who had different colored accessories. Just with Muckman & Wingnut I think- Joe Eyeball & Screwloose were both cast in different colored plastic resin then the larger figures accessories.

• Not Painting the figures as much as shown in the prototype pictures: Ever look at the back of an old TMNT figure cardback? If you have one with Doctor El (the elephant duder) on it, take a close look at him there & then look at the production piece that you own. He's missing A LOT of paint applications. Why? To save money & keep the prices of the figures down is my guess.

• Similiar Articulation Design: Almost every TMNT figure used the exact same style of articulation & executed it the same way. Hell, even Playmates Toxic Crusaders toyline had the same type of articulation & was made in the same exact scale as the TMNT toyline. All TMNT figures (with a few exceptions) had articulation at: the shoulders, wrists or forearms, neck & hips with ball & socket joints. The old line kept with one theme of articulation execution, the new toyline uses new articulation for every figure. No two are similair in this respect & thus they have to most likely spend more money in retooling the figures. Granted this might not be the best thing ever, but it worked for the line back then.

Okay, now those where a few things that kept the figures at their $3.99 price point for like 5+ years at TRU & varying other stores (except Kay-Bee toy stores where they cost $5.99 a pop. Actually that's funny as KB only raised the price of their figures by a dollar, while TRU bumped them up by 2 bucks). Here's another thing that might've kept the cost of figures up, but for some reason didn't:

• Detail: Old TMNT figures were very nicely sculpted & all the figures were pretty unique in terms of, well, detail. General Tragg, Muckman, Mutagen Man, Wyrm, Scale-Tail, Ground Chuck, etc. The sculpting studio who did the work (something like Aynalglph or anagram studios, I can't rememebr the spelling or the name presently) might've been new at the time & didn't charge Playmates a lot of money, hence why they could get such awesome sculpts & still charge 4 bucks a figure.

• Action Features/Gimmics: Yes some old TMNT figures did have action features/gimmics built into them & a few weren't even Deluxe scale figures with larger price tags. Ray Fillet had color-changing paint, Muckman could have ooze pour out of him, Mutagen Man could hold water & "eat" ooze, Hot Head had an extending neck as did Halfcourt, Scumbug's jaw could move when you turned his head from side to side, Leatherhead & Wyrm's jaws could move & Pizzaface had removeable peg-legs. Sure not every TMNT figure had a gimmic, but a bunch of them did & that didn't make them more expensive.

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I don't believe anything we send to playmates is going to persuade them to make any changes as they are marketing this line at kids (and the parents buying these for their kids).

Yeah, true, but maybe if Playmates new there was a collector market they could make new figures in scale with the old toyline? I mean, a lot of people who were kids when the TMNT first came out have jobs & money to blow on old toy's of their youth- why not capitailize on that & make a retro TMNT toyline with a few new re-tooled figures tossed in? How hard would it be to sculpt a new head & use the old body of General Tragg to make a Rock Warrior/Solider figure for example?

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I think the best step to take to make a difference is to persuade somebody else who has major influence over the line to step in and wrangle things around a bit. Maybe Eastman and Laird but from what I understand they don't have any real control over what gets produced in the toyline. And even if they do, I don't think they are aware of the problems the new figures have, I seriously doubt either of them play with any (if any) of the TMNT figures they own.

Possible, but Peter Laird owns all of TMNT now, Kevin Eastman sold his half of it to Peter. Peter Laird has made some drawings (got to ninjaturtles.com & check out the "Blast From the Past" section, cool stuff & you'll see the drawing where I got my name from ) of cool ideas for toys he had for the old toyline, but nothing ever happened with them which is a shame. I asked him in a letter to the TMNT comic book if he'd show those drawings to Playmates again now for the new toyline & I think he said he was going to give it a shot. No news on what happened with that though. :/

-Snailman

[Teepo]

i dunno. the new sculpts look pretty close to the new show imho. they certainly look closer to their new show counterparts than the original figures looked compared to the old show.
but i agree. the new toyline is disappointing.

[JaffleMan]

This is in refernece to Snailmans reply to my post:

What i meant by gimmicks was the action features such as smashing fists, swinging arms etc. These require mechanisms within the toy which are made of metal which is more expensive than plastic and they seem to be really fond of usiong screws etc. The old toys like Muckman who had heaps of detail but also had a gimmick did not require metal parts.

I was suggesting Playmates may have thought ahead on what costs for an entire production run would be before even starting work on the sculpts of the figures.

I guess the only way we will "really" know what's going on with the new figures is if we have some of the designers/sculptors posting here. I know we've seen people working on the old toyline post on forums here and there but why not people working on the new line? Maybe this could be another factor as to why we seem displeased with the new figures as the sculpters aren't fans themselves unlike other lines like MOTU where the sculptors are fans of MOTU and really go that extra mile not only to please consumers but to also please themsleves.

Just a thought....

[Snailman]

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

This is in refernece to Snailmans reply to my post:

What i meant by gimmicks was the action features such as smashing fists, swinging arms etc. These require mechanisms within the toy which are made of metal which is more expensive than plastic and they seem to be really fond of usiong screws etc. The old toys like Muckman who had heaps of detail but also had a gimmick did not require metal parts.

OH, okay, I get you now, I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you'd written. But yeah, that's a good point, very few of the old figures had such action features, but some did have them. What did Playmates do when they made those back then? They'd package them as deluxe action figures. The Wacky Action series, the Fighter figures that had the lever-hands to make'em punch/kick & a few other deluxe lines had mechanical parts like that. If Playmates toys now wanted to, they could make deluxe TMNT figures & charge more for'em. But..it's weird because technically they already are chargin' more for them.

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I was suggesting Playmates may have thought ahead on what costs for an entire production run would be before even starting work on the sculpts of the figures.

Um, so what're you saying exactly? That you think playmates thinks ahead when making their figures for production cost purposes? I applogise if I'm not understanding you completely, maybe you could elaberate a bit more?

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I guess the only way we will "really" know what's going on with the new figures is if we have some of the designers/sculptors posting here.

YES, exactly. We have no insight at all to what goes on with TMNT figures really. Other companies/toylines have a little form of insight, but Playmates seems to be very quiet about all of it. My guess is due to them not seeing TMNT as a collector line & just being there for kids. Kids don't care about sculpting detail I guess?

Originally Posted by JaffleMan

I know we've seen people working on the old toyline post on forums here and there but why not people working on the new line? Maybe this could be another factor as to why we seem displeased with the new figures as the sculpters aren't fans themselves unlike other lines like MOTU where the sculptors are fans of MOTU and really go that extra mile not only to please consumers but to also please themsleves.

Just a thought....

Hey, you make sense to me JaffleMan, & you seem to be very close to something here. The sculpting studio that did most of the TMNT figures (I think, I could be completely wrong though) was Anaglyph Sculpture,inc.
(http://www.Anaglyphinc.com/). Tomart's Action Figure Digest interviewed them in issue #102 & I think they sculpted Ray Fillet, if not more TMNT figures.

-Snailman

[Triceraton]

Sorry for bringing up this old thread, but I must've missed the first time around.

Back when the line first came out, & up until it went bye-be, a TMNT figure would run you $3.99 at Toys-R-Us & $5.99 at Kay-Bee Toys. Now it's $5.99 at TRU & $6.99 at K-B Toys. I can understand the price increase if it's due to the figures now being larger & having better accessories (none of the same weapons all being cast in the same color plastic in the new line), but if it's due to sculpting being cheaper that's a dumb excuse.

The increased price has nothing to do with the actual figures, it's a result of inflation. Prices naturally go up over time. Look at Star Wars, the original figures from the late 70's were, what, about $2? And now Star Wars figures are $5-$6. It's also important to take into account the rest of the toy market... very, very few figures are available these days for $6 or less.


As for the figures themselves, I agree Playmates needs to do either super detailed, or cartoon accurate. Personally I'd prefer cartoon accurate, and I wish they'd work on improving the sculpts. It's possible to do a little of both though, Stonebiter is a great example. He looks awful as it is, but if they had added a little more rock like texture to him and made him a little bigger, he wouldn't be nearly as bad. I mean look at Leatherhead, he fits just fine as a pretty accurate figure, and he's got some great detailing all over him instead of blank space. And yes, articulation needs to be worked on, a lot, but considering Playmates is always bad with articulation on every one of their lines, I'm willing to give them some space there.

Here are the figures I think they've done almost perfectly on, or close enough at least:
Fugitoid
Guardian Ninja
Nanotech Monster
Foot Tech Ninja
Shredder

There are others that are close to being perfect(like the Utrom and Leatherhead), but just miss it due to lacking articulation.

The biggest issue for me is that the Turtles and Splinter look little like the characters in the new cartoon, instead they look like updated versions of the original figures. I really hope they try again on these sometime, but I don't think it's very likely that they will.

[BigApple3AM]

I get to rest my case now! Guess what, playmates has officially made this toy line worse than some piece of crap forgotten 80's toy line:
http://afigures.com/g/?mode=view&alb...00&start=0

That just screams 80's, normally I wouldn't mind except for the fact we're in 2004. Also why give only one figure rooted hair and the rest have plastic, it makes no sense to me. If you go plastic hair then follow up with it, don't throw in some weird rooted hair guy. No it'll look so retarded with all the other new tmnt toys.... under my bed... in a box.... waiting to get thrown into the basement *sigh*

Oh btw this just screams crap:
http://afigures.com/g/?mode=view&alb...00&start=0
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?!?!?!

Ok, anyway, the rest of the figures look decent, I'm starting to understand the animated style, and what you just can't do with this line is compare it, becuase then it'll make it seem crappy, but if you like it for what it is it aint so bad. Plus we're getting tons of secondary characters. And some of them even look cool:

http://afigures.com/g/?mode=view&alb...00&start=0

Well happy hunting for when these guys come out. It makes me wonder what the new wave of variant turtles is going to be. Probably something lame.