Leonardo -

[Scandia]

It is a very good thing that all the Turtles have flaws and none of them are perfect. In anime discussions, often people complain that a given character is "too perfect". It is also good that the flaws are evenly distributed. It's not like Raphael is a total piece of work while the other 3 are nearly perfect in comparison. OK, so Raph and Mikey give Splinter more green hairs than Leo and Donnie.

In other words, I do not think there is an Optimus Prime equivalent in the TMNT universe. When I asked for "most flawless character" in an anime message board, everyone nominated Optimus Prime.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Scandia

It is a very good thing that all the Turtles have flaws and none of them are perfect. In anime discussions, often people complain that a given character is "too perfect". It is also good that the flaws are evenly distributed. It's not like Raphael is a total piece of work while the other 3 are nearly perfect in comparison. OK, so Raph and Mikey give Splinter more green hairs than Leo and Donnie.

In other words, I do not think there is an Optimus Prime equivalent in the TMNT universe. When I asked for "most flawless character" in an anime message board, everyone nominated Optimus Prime.

So true.

I think it's not only the flawed characters that I like about the Turtles compared to other comic book/superheroes/heroes in general, but that you also have a flavor to choose from, and that they dont where tights.

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

So true.

I think it's not only the flawed characters that I like about the Turtles compared to other comic book/superheroes/heroes in general, but that you also have a flavor to choose from, and that they dont where tights.

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.

This is absolutely spot on. Flawed characters are real characters. They are not believable if we can't see them making mistakes or sometimes not being perfect or a hero. It makes them so much more relatable.

Leo is an interesting case because he puts pressure on himself to be perfect, but can never match up because he's struggling to meet an unquantifiable ideal, and the goal post will always be moving. That's part of why he is such a conflicted character.

[JusticeForce]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.

I've always been drawn more to stories that feature a team or group of heroes, because I find the most interesting part about a character I love is seeing them interact with the other characters I love. I don't think I'd be interested at all in Leo if he starred in a story where he was an only child that was striving for personal perfection while being his own worst critic, even if he was still a well-rounded character. But seeing him dealing with all of that along with trying to lead his younger brothers who just don't take training as seriously as he does - one who will butt heads with him because he resents him for his place as "teacher's pet", one who'd rather be in his workshop than practicing his ninjitsu, and one who seems to not be able to take anything seriously - THAT's what makes him interesting.

- T

[BigApple3AM]

Originally Posted by jenna

The 1990 film depicts Leonardo as a young teenager struggling to adapt to his role as leader. Whilst he is conflicted between the roles of ‘Leonardo the teenager’ and ‘Leonardo the leader’, he carries the burden of leadership with a tendency towards guilt and shame in failure. He is shown to reach breaking point during an argument with Raphael. He becomes petulant and petty. That these actions cause Raphael to storm out on his own, leaving him open to an attack that nearly kills him, leads Leonardo to plummet into a spiral of guilt. He becomes inactive until his brother has recovered. His bond with Raphael is demonstrated here, as Leonardo’s regret reminds him how much he loves his brother despite their differences. Leonardo’s leadership skills are tested in this film as their master, Splinter, is abducted and Leonardo is left as the sole leader. Whereas at first he backs away from the new responsibility by opting to avoid confrontational methods, he eventually finds his way and leads the team in a battle to recover their master. This film is very much a learning curve for Leonardo, who makes many mistakes, but learns from them.

I disagree. How could he have known he was sending Raph to a rooftop fight? And petty? Not any more so than Raph was acting. Of course being the leader he's the one who has to realize they were both wrong and as the responsible one had to make sure Raph was okay afterwards, but inactive? You don't remember the huge fight right after Raph was hurt? I agree he does play watchdog at the farm, but he wasn't any more inactive than mikey or don. What was don doing other than sitting in the truck with casey making jokes while casey worked on the truck... heh, shoulda been the other way around but oh well. Otherwise everything else is spot on, but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder, but he has a raph moment and his own frustration and anger takes control and makes him the worst almost leading to his brothers' death. I like this Leo but even in the end he acts immature, he should have been more leader-like but oh well.


Oh and Optimus Prime the least flawed character? I dunno, I can totally see it, but there are a couple g1 episodes where he completely messes up. Like that one where he makes the autobots leave earth and almost sends them crashing into the sun because of what I thought was his own pride/sense of honor. In the movie he's not perfect either, considering he gets killed. But yeah as far as flawed leaders go Optimus has nothing on Rodimus.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Ectocooler

but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder

No, he's not. He stands no more a chance against Shredder than any of his brothers.

[Spawn Guy]

Let a fellow fan have an opinion.

[triplexxx]

My apologies, but it sounded to me like he was trying to state a fact, and that's not a fact.

[Spawn Guy]

Same could be said of you in a lot of cases.

[Scandia]

I don't think I'd be interested at all in Leo if he starred in a story where he was an only child that was striving for personal perfection while being his own worst critic, even if he was still a well-rounded character.

I wonder how they would get along if it were just Splinter and Splinter Jr. If it would go even smoother, or if they would butt heads. I do tend to like idealistic lionhearted characters that strive for perfection.

Regarding handling Shredder, I think that Leonardo did have higher skill and maturity than his brothers due to his higher dedication to training. However, whether he could actually defeat Shredder on his own would be another story.

[JusticeForce]

Speaking of 1990 movie Leo in the rooftop battle with the Shredder...

Raph of course attacks Shredder first, but after he's knocked away and Leo comments "This guy's good!", Mikey pays Leo a compliment by saying "Yeah, why don't you go next?" to which he replies, "Thank you." But then he only lasts about half a second against him. However, in the later fighting montage he seems to redeem himself by being the only one you see leaving an impression on the Shredder (ie. slashing his arm).

I think the reason he has his "Raph moment" (as Ectocooler so eloquently called it ) is not just because he's upset about the Shredder saying Splinter is dead, but because he feels Shredder is also dissing the spiritual experience they had around the campfire.

- T

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Ectocooler

I disagree. How could he have known he was sending Raph to a rooftop fight?

You are very welcome to disagree with me, but I don't think I explained properly. I didn't mean that Leo would know Raph would be attacked - I meant that he feels this guilt with hindsight and regrets his actions later.

And petty? Not any more so than Raph was acting.

Yeah, but we expect this kind of behaviour from Raph. Leo is usually able to rise above Raph and his childish tantrums, but whilst under the pressure of Splinter's absence he is less tolerant.

Of course being the leader he's the one who has to realize they were both wrong and as the responsible one had to make sure Raph was okay afterwards, but inactive? You don't remember the huge fight right after Raph was hurt? I agree he does play watchdog at the farm, but he wasn't any more inactive than mikey or don.

Absolutely, I remember the fight after and I realise I neglected to refer to this. They all fought fantastically and bravely under the circumstances. At the farm Leo retreats into himself (whilst Mike faces his own rage and Don seeks humour from a replacement for Mike (Casey)) and is not able to take the bull by the horns until he has resolved his conflict about Raph and this happens during his sole mediation scene.

but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder, but he has a raph moment and his own frustration and anger takes control and makes him the worst almost leading to his brothers' death. I like this Leo but even in the end he acts immature, he should have been more leader-like but oh well.

In my opinion this Leo is a young Leo who has a lot to learn, but makes a huge journey in this film, moreso than any other turtle. His "Raph moment" as you brilliantly put it is a sign that Leonardo, for all his virtue, is still a young turtle who must learn to handle his own rage just as Raph has to. It is only in extreme circumstances that Leo is unable to do this. Leo's lesson is the greatest. He meets a huge obstacle in his development when Splinter is abducted, but he eventually overcomes it and leads his brothers to meet their enemy head on. If he wasn't an accomplished leader at the start of the film, he is by the end.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Scandia

However, whether he could actually defeat Shredder on his own would be another story.

Uhh...about that...Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles vol 1 issue 21.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Uhh...about that...Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles vol 1 issue 21.

And it wouldn't have happened without his brothers helping him; like always, it's a team effort.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

And it wouldn't have happened without his brothers helping him; like always, it's a team effort.

Dude, I'm talking about the actual fight itself, Leo won alone.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Dude, I'm talking about the actual fight itself, Leo won alone.

And if Raphael hadn't fired the rocket launcher, Leonardo'd have been dead. And there's no reason to think any of the others couldn't have done the same had they been given the chance. Donatello delivered the death blow the first time they "killed" him.

[BigApple3AM]

Yeah it's a team effort, obviously, but when it comes to who can handle shredder the best, which I don't think any of them really can, Leo is the one I'd choose to go solo. In the movie Leo is the only one to hurt the shredder. In the first issue don doesn't give the death blow, shredder was pretty much dead, he was gutted by Leo. Don just saves the turtle's by knocking the grenade, but by your logic anyone could have done that right? Still like you said it was a team effort, none of them had a chance solo so they fell back and did group tactics like throwing stars. All I'm saying is it's made apparent that Leo is the one who strives to be the best, and thus he's usually the one to handle shredhead.

Regarding film Leo, and Jenna's repost, I agree, and isn't it a shame we got some great character development only for it to be mostly wasted in 2 and 3? I love the second movie, it's just fun, but in some ways I wish there was a more true sequel. I don't really consider the latest movie to fill that void, I think they did a great job making their own universe.

Great thread btw. Lots of insight that I wouldn't normally pick up on. Definitely makes watching the first film more enjoyable.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Ectocooler

Regarding film Leo, and Jenna's repost, I agree, and isn't it a shame we got some great character development only for it to be mostly wasted in 2 and 3? I love the second movie, it's just fun, but in some ways I wish there was a more true sequel. I don't really consider the latest movie to fill that void, I think they did a great job making their own universe.

I agree with you - and I think that Rooish said it best in another thread - can't remember her exact wording but it was something along the lines of you could have substituted any characters into the sequels and the plot would have been the same, but with film 1 it was uniquely the turtles.

I love film 2 too, but more for the entertainment factor rather than character development and intelligent content. If all the films had taken the same approach as film 1 the movie universe would have made more of a mark as classic films, whereas in my opinion only film 1 can be marked as a classic. (Although, having said that, I think in years to come the new film will be regarded as a classic too, but for different reasons).

[Scandia]

I think the second one mainly develops Donatello out of the 4 Turtles. At least it shows some of Donnie's interests and traits and strengths. The third one- well, I requested it so I will see exactly who gets the most development.

When I went to watch the third one at the movies, I ran into a classmate who was going to watch "Far and Away". She told me that if I wanted to, I could come with her instead of to see TMNT 3. I decided not to...and I do not regret it. Still haven't watched "Far and Away"

As for Leo, let's just say that I changed my desktop wallpaper yesterday to one of the fan arts. A fan art that did not need to tell me which Turtle was in it for me to figure out it was Leo.

[TurtleTrails]

Originally Posted by Scandia

I think the second one mainly develops Donatello out of the 4 Turtles. At least it shows some of Donnie's interests and traits and strengths. The third one- well, I requested it so I will see exactly who gets the most development.

When I went to watch the third one at the movies, I ran into a classmate who was going to watch "Far and Away". She told me that if I wanted to, I could come with her instead of to see TMNT 3. I decided not to...and I do not regret it. Still haven't watched "Far and Away"

As for Leo, let's just say that I changed my desktop wallpaper yesterday to one of the fan arts. A fan art that did not need to tell me which Turtle was in it for me to figure out it was Leo.

Could you put on a link to the fan art? I love looking at people's fan arts. I just finished swooning over Bess's fan art on another thread.

As for picking TMNT 3 over Far and Away I would agree that you made the right choice! Even though I'm not a big fan of TMNT 3 I would pick turtles over anything else!