Jim Henson's Muppets not the same?

[Jester]

I'll admit that my love for the Muppets spawns more from a purchase of a Kermit hand puppet when I was a sophomore in high school, and a rediscovery of some good Muppet films, including the original 3 (The Muppet Movie, Great Muppet Caper, and Muppets Take Manhattan) and a Muppet Christmas Carol (a post-Henson film). But it does seem that after the loss of Henson and other original Muppeteers, the Muppets have gone down hill. In fact I think Family Guy hit the nail on the head:

With Henson and heck even Oz not behind the Muppets anymore, how different is it? Like I said, I've not seen much "classic" Muppets stuff, just some Sesame Street and the original movies. Not the Muppet Show or other stuff. I have seen the SNL Muppets (from the 1st 1976 season) and you'd be surprised at the content of those bits...yozza.

[ZariusTwo]

The Muppets Christmas Carol was the franchise's swan song in my opinion, you can tell that was made as a valentine to Henson and Oz was making it one. After that, they didnt give a s*it.

[VaughnMichael]

The Muppets where never for kids that's the thing allot of people forget.
Sesame Street was which people get confused.
Jim was more into doing adult things, his life style would shock allot of people as well just like those snl land of gorch puppet do.
Even the last show he did The Jim Henson Hour was aimed more at adults or families if you will than children. There's all kinds of adult humor through the entire show.
Heck, even watch the 70's Muppet Show there's plenty of jokes like the time when Rowlf the dog & Sam the Eagle kept singing a song called Tit willow and everyone kept laughing at the dignafied Sam because of his ridiculous naughty line.
Its not even so much that the Muppets are wrong sounding to me (which they are) it's that their attitudes are differnt.
The people who do these puppets today are from a differnt generation and obviously don't have the same king of humor that people like Jim Henson or Richard Hunt did.
What also kills them now is that fact that they just dont have good writters.
With the loss of great witters like Jerry Juhl the Muppets are only a shaddow of their former selves.
There is hope though many of us do care, but with them in the hands of Disney it's going to be even tougher to get them to see the light of what's right for this cast of missfits.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

The Muppets Christmas Carol was the franchise's swan song in my opinion, you can tell that was made as a valentine to Henson and Oz was making it one. After that, they didnt give a s*it.

Funny the film was made after Jim Henson's death, I much prefer the stuff that was made while his vision was still attached to the group.
The reason I like Muppet Christmas Carol so much is because Paul Williams wrote all of the music which he hadn't done for a Muppet film for some time.
Btw Brian Henson directed the Movie not Frank Oz.
I really think Michael Caine was a wonderful Ebenezer Scrooge though 100% perfect.
This movie was made by Disney btw which is proof that if backed by the right musicians and directors they can make a good film.
The only thing I don't enjoy about this and it's just me being nit picky and if I have to choose one thing is that it's the start of Gonzos less than weird self.
My favorite Muppet Holiday films though will always be A Muppet Family Christmas & Emmit Otters Jugband Christmas.
The Family Christmas one is just amazing in it's self because we will never get to see all of Jim's creations in one spot again.
It's sad really that Jim didn't get to do what he truly wanted to do though, but I'd say he's left enough impact on young creative minds to last many life times.

[Time Mistress]

The true test for me will be the new Fraggle Rock film as to whether or not "you cannot leave the magic." Disney doesn't have the Fraggle rights. All the orignal performers (save Hunt who did Junior Gorg) are alive and will be involved as far as I know. Now we just need someone like Susan Juhl, or Jocelyn or one of the other old writers behind it. I believe Jerry was involved with the project before he died.

As for Kermit & the gang they haven't really been the same since Jim died, though I did enjoy Muppets Tonight and Muppets From Space to some degree.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

meBtw Brian Henson directed the Movie not Frank Oz.

I meant on a performance level.

The only thing I don't enjoy about this and it's just me being nit picky and if I have to choose one thing is that it's the start of Gonzos less than weird self.

I really dont recall Gonzo doing anything of merit after this for precisly that very reason. Bryan seemed to be patterning him as the franchise's representive (on the big screen anyway), and when he bombed as one, they turned to Elmo.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I meant on a performance level.

Ah gotcha yeah Oz was great in the film.
He's made statements though about not performing for the Muppets & Sesame Street anymore though he said that he thinks that Disney could give 2 craps less about them & that Sesame Workshop is lost in Elmo Land.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I really dont recall Gonzo doing anything of merit after this for precisly that very reason. Bryan seemed to be patterning him as the franchise's representative (on the big screen anyway), and when he bombed as one, they turned to Elmo.

Yes, I think they went with Gonzo as the main character to have tales told about because Steve Witmire who now does Kermit (poorly if you ask me) really wasn't all that ready to be the head of the Muppet characters.
He's always played such small roles before Jim handed him Kermit.
I'll give Disney one thing they now seem to be trying to get the Muppets back to their more adult roots.
Gonzo was on the local California news chanel ktla promoting the season 2 box set and he was acting his old wacky self again.
The two that aren't though and it's really noticeable are Kermit & Piggy.
Kermit now acts all snobbish and wacky which he was the glue that held the entire Muppet clan together.
Piggy used to get her way because she was sweet but then would karate chop you, now she's just a bitchy diva all the time.
But yeah sadly Henson & Disney have nothing to do with Sesame Street.
Sesame Workshop does everything Sesame Street now by themselves Henson has no say in anything hence why everything is so different now and all about Elmo.

[odupianist]

I agree with Putre on that one. The mannerisms and humor just aren't the same anymore and it makes me sad. I guess we've all got the old season sets though of the Muppet Show.

[Jester]

Yeah, the real reason I did this thread was my love for the Christmas classic, It's a Wonderful Life. You see, I was also looking at re-makes of it and "It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie" came up. It got mixed reviews, and I'll admit I'd rather watch the original, where as my favorite version of a Christmas Carol may well be the Muppet version (the Alistair Sims version ain't bad...heck I love them all...except the cheap one I have where you can't even see the ghosts.)

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah, the real reason I did this thread was my love for the Christmas classic, It's a Wonderful Life. You see, I was also looking at re-makes of it and "It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie" came up. It got mixed reviews, and I'll admit I'd rather watch the original, where as my favorite version of a Christmas Carol may well be the Muppet version (the Alistair Sims version ain't bad...heck I love them all...except the cheap one I have where you can't even see the ghosts.)

I've always enjoyed the Mickey Mouse one with Uncle Scrooge also.
The Only reason I liked NBC's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas was because it was in a replica of the old Muppet theater and the story was about it. Plus Robin Kermit's lil nephew was back.

[Jester]

Yeah, I love most Christmas Carol incarnations, but I only have a passing interest in the Muppet Christmas Movie, and that because I was a huge Kermit fan.

[Drtooth]

Does anyone seriously think that a franchise can and will survive to the great level they had once a founding figure dies? Seriously?

of course they aren't the same. Look what passes for humor these days. If you can't say something funny, say something shocking. And make long awkward pauses. Really long ones. Funny.

I still think the stuff up until Muppet Oz was good for what it was. I think Muppet Christmas Carol was the dullest thing they ever did. I mean, it was more like Michael Cain's Christmas Carol guest starring the Muppets. Kermit had a half hour combined screen time. And that was the most they got.

I think Treasure Island was a better film, anyway. except for that effeminant kid playing Jim Hawkins. He was just too... too close to Tim Curry's character, if you ask me.

Muppets From Space? That would have been a good movie if they did what they planned to do, but Sony, confusing the Muppet Show with Sesame Street, wanted a preschool picture, and they changed the ending, and removed quite a bit of stuff. Jerry Juhl left in a huff.

[Mandi-chan]

I have seen all the Muppet movies, and have honestly loved each and every one of them (although, I will admit that the two made-for-tv films weren't up to par with the theatrical films).

The Muppets have always been great to me, and since I grew up watching the classics repeated on tv alongside the new stuff as it came out...I never really noticed the differences.

I love it all!

Drtooth, you seem to have some inside knowledge on Muppets From Space (a favorite muppet movie of mine)...I'm curious to know, what was the original intention for the ending? How much of the movie was changed?

I could tell just from watching the trailer that there was some deleted material, but alas...I don't have the dvd (just the vhs copy at the moment) so I don't know what the bonus stuff was.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by Mandi-chan

Drtooth, you seem to have some inside knowledge on Muppets From Space (a favorite muppet movie of mine)...I'm curious to know, what was the original intention for the ending? How much of the movie was changed?

As we all know, Muppets from Space was about the origin of Gonzo, and how he's really an alien. So he eventually meets his alien brethren. However, the original ending featured the Aliens not really being of Gonzo's species. They were just admirerers from beyond the galaxy, keeping the origin of Gonzo ambiguous. But Sony thought that this would be too confusing for babies or something. So they changed it. Writer Jerry juhl was very unhappy about this and left. The rest of the film was rewritten by Sesame Street writers, specifically Puppeteer Joey Mazarino.

Also gone was an entire sequence in which Uncle Travelling Matt (from Fraggle Rock) was observing the silly creatures who were gathered to see the aliens.

I still like the movie, but I wish Sony didn't muck about in the script.

[Mandi-chan]

As we all know, Muppets from Space was about the origin of Gonzo, and how he's really an alien. So he eventually meets his alien brethren. However, the original ending featured the Aliens not really being of Gonzo's species. They were just admirerers from beyond the galaxy, keeping the origin of Gonzo ambiguous. But Sony thought that this would be too confusing for babies or something. So they changed it. Writer Jerry juhl was very unhappy about this and left. The rest of the film was rewritten by Sesame Street writers, specifically Puppeteer Joey Mazarino.

Also gone was an entire sequence in which Uncle Travelling Matt (from Fraggle Rock) was observing the silly creatures who were gathered to see the aliens.

I still like the movie, but I wish Sony didn't muck about in the script.

That sounds good too.

I loved the movie, and liked the happy ending with Gonzo meeting his family, but I would have liked that ending too.

Plus, that Uncle Travelling Matt scene would have been great! I miss Fraggle Rock...

[odupianist]

I only really dealt with the Muppet movies that had Jim involved. I try not to see the ones after that. On the comment by Dr Tooth about things going on after the creators have died, in a sense TMNT has lost half of its creator so to speak. Will you wnat TMNT to go on after PL kicks the bucket (provided he keeps TMNT alive that long)?

[Jester]

I dunna. TMNT has a lot of other creative people who have been on since almost day one...so...*shrugs*

[ThirdMarioBro]

I was just watching "A Muppet Family Christmas" (uncut pirate version FTW) when the same thing dawned on me. It simple really. The old Muppets died when they ceased being the "Jim Henson Muppets" and became the "Walt Disney Muppets". Its sad. I still enjoy seeing them, and love it when Kermit turns up in random places (like Deal or no Deal a while back), but it isn't like it used to be.

Fortunately, I've got most of their works and there was a lot so I don't feel like there was any wasted potential or anything. They were once a hybrid that appealed to kids and adults with innocent humor mixed with subtle adult jokes (a trait that other famous 90's cartoons such as Animaniacs adopted to similar success), but after "A Muppet Christmas Carol" (after which the Henson kids stopped caring), the franchise was retrofitted to appeal solely to children, and that's when they lost their magic (though "It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie" had its moments).

I'd give anything to find some rips of the Jim Henson Hour.

[VaughnMichael]

Exactly, And I was lucky my dad taped some of the Jim Henson Hour for me its still to thos day some of my favorite stuff.
Jim was really moving forward with that show.
That's another issue I see with the modern Muppets is that while Jim before he died was moving forward, the Henson kids and Disney stay stuck in the past and don't move these characters forward at all.

[odupianist]

Yes TMNT people have had creative people on, but so have the Muppets: Frank Oz, Jerry Nelson, Richard Hunt, Dave Goelz, etc etc

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by odupianist

Yes TMNT people have had creative people on, but so have the Muppets: Frank Oz, Jerry Nelson, Richard Hunt, Dave Goelz, etc etc

Problem is, Jerry and Frank are no longer involved. And Richard died back in 1992. Jerry is getting on in years. He still works on Sesame Street, but for the most part, he just loops dialogue. Frank didn't lose his passion with the muppets, but he was focusing on his directing career just up until Jim Died. He really lost his passion then. Much as I hate to admit it, I think Eric Jacobson is doing a much better Job with Fozzie and Piggy than Frank has been doing since Jim passed on. Look at Muppet Treasure Island and Muppets From Space. He really phoned in his performance in both of them. Piggy is pretty dreadful in MTI, and she's not too much better in MFS.

Dave and Steve are the only original cast members still working with the Muppets. And they had to pretty much handle the burden of the others since. That's why Gonzo has become the focus of most of the projects.

I will say the only one of the post-Jim projects that really sucked was Wizard of Oz. They tried to get too many demographics at once. The Adult jokes were too random and poorly placed (the "nipple" joke for example), and the stuff they did for tween girls (Ashanti's "acting") really helped make the whole thing fall apart. The Quentin Tarrentino bit was the only good part of the film. If it at least had a couple more rewrites, it could have been salvagable.

The only good thing to come out of the Disney deal was "Statler and Waldorf at the Movies" and even then, they got rid of it.