Some insight from inside the TMNT World

[Archon_Turtle]

Originally Posted by Canadian Turtle

I said a bunch of stuff! Blah blah blah!

I completely agree with you Isaac. I also cross-blogged this post on theturtlevan.

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

The idea is the cartoons introduce people to the franchise and then they might get into the comics. After all, isn't that how most of us discovered TMNT in the first place via the original cartoon?

How can we be optimistic without a cartoon?

Just because one particular cartoon series is coming to an end doesn't mean that they'll never be animated again in the not-too-distant future. I mean, it's not like the world immediately forgets about any comic character that suddenly doesn't have his own cartoon series anymore. I think that the Turtles can survive without a cartoon lined up immediately after this one.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

Just because one particular cartoon series is coming to an end doesn't mean that they'll never be animated again in the not-too-distant future. I mean, it's not like the world immediately forgets about any comic character that suddenly doesn't have his own cartoon series anymore. I think that the Turtles can survive without a cartoon lined up immediately after this one.

That is true, but Batman has consistently had a cartoon on the air for years.

After Batman: The Animated series ended, we got Batman Beyond, then Batman played a major role on Justice League.

In addition to that there was The Batman, and now Brave and the Bold. There has been an animated form of Batman on TV in one form or another since pretty much 1992.

With TMNT if the 2k3 series ends, what is there to look forward to? Sure, maybe 5-6 years from now we'll get another cartoon, but it'll probably not be all that good, and the 2k3 universe will be abandoned forever.

[TristanHuwJones]

Kids will still watch reruns. And if kids were getting into the comics, the sales numbers would be a lot higher. It's rare that I see a kid below the age of 15 in a comic shop. Even when I was in the the U.S. (and I hit those comic shops hard).

[Canadian Turtle]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Kids will still watch reruns. And if kids were getting into the comics, the sales numbers would be a lot higher. It's rare that I see a kid below the age of 15 in a comic shop. Even when I was in the the U.S. (and I hit those comic shops hard).

I agree, I think the comic image and industry needs to take a swing away from the exclusive older male culture and get youth back into it again... or it will ultimately die all together.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

With TMNT if the 2k3 series ends, what is there to look forward to? Sure, maybe 5-6 years from now we'll get another cartoon, but it'll probably not be all that good, and the 2k3 universe will be abandoned forever.

Therein lies the point I've been trying to make. Why not look forward to the prospect that it could be better? It could be "not all that good" but it could be twice that. ****, it could even be the Spawn style animated series everyone wants!

It's the "glass half empty" point of view people are taking that is bringing things down. It's fine to have that point of view, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere really.

[CyberCubed]

Well the TMNT 2k3 series was the closest version of a cartoon the comics that we got, even if they took creative liberties, and Peter Laird approved of almost every script before the 4kids writers actually went ahead of it.

I also imagine the length had something to do with it. 155 episodes for a cartoon is an amazing run. If we get another cartoon, it'll last maybe 52 eps at the most and end, or maybe even just 26 episodes.

The cartoon is what introduces kids to the franchise and then said kids may look up the comics. If there is no cartoon, a random 14 year old kid is unlikely to go to a comic store and pick up a black and white comic when there are Batman and Superman comics sitting right there next to them.

[TristanHuwJones]

But that kid might not be into Batman or Superman. That kid might've been into TMNT a couple of years ago, and therefore might pick up the TMNT comic. Kids read Manga, and that isn't in colour and half of it is read backwards. Just because it's Batman or Superman and it's in colour doesn't mean people are going to pick it over a black and white comic.

Again, "glass half empty".

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Well the TMNT 2k3 series was the closest version of a cartoon the comics that we got, even if they took creative liberties, and Peter Laird approved of almost every script before the 4kids writers actually went ahead of it.

I also imagine the length had something to do with it. 155 episodes for a cartoon is an amazing run. If we get another cartoon, it'll last maybe 52 eps at the most and end, or maybe even just 26 episodes.

The cartoon is what introduces kids to the franchise and then said kids may look up the comics. If there is no cartoon, a random 14 year old kid is unlikely to go to a comic store and pick up a black and white comic when there are Batman and Superman comics sitting right there next to them.

Well, hopefully this whole Barnes & Noble thing picks up because when that same random kid goes there to buy Batman, he'll see TMNT and go, "What's this?" Hopefully he'll like it.

[Andrew NDB]

In many ways, I think it's positive that "Everything" TMNT is dying in the mass media (aside from the comic). Better to let everything die, I say, and then let the franchise sit on ice for 5-10 years so that TPTB can come back to the table with something more befitting the source material in the mass media than the toddler nonsense we're forcefed at large. Maybe this means a TMNT movie unlike any other. Maybe this is a made-for-TV/Direct-to-DVD type affair. Maybe a semi-ongoing, mature animated feature on something like HBO. I don't know. Sometimes... often times... it's just that things need to hit rock bottom in order to come back better, or properly.

I know it may never happen. I tell you, though, I'd rather gamble on the odds of that happening than to just be content with the kind of twisted, vicious circle of one kiddie incarnation to the next to the next to the next we're looking at now.

In all likelihood, I don't doubt that TPTB will still just jump at the next little kid cartoon deal that comes their way with asking only a modest amount of concessions. I just think it's unfortunate. And makes the problems within the TMNT's portrayal in the mass media self-perpetuating.

[Archon_Turtle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

In many ways, it's positive that "Everything" TMNT is dying in the mass media (aside from the comic). Better to let everything die, I say, and then let the franchise sit on ice for 5-10 years so that TPTB can come back to the table with something more befitting the source material in the mass media than the toddler nonsense we're forcefed at large.

It may never happen, but better that than status quo.

In some ways I agree with Andrew. Better to let something die gracefully then to make it trudge on for years too long *cough* Simpsons *cough*

[CyberCubed]

I'd love to see a TMNT movie in the same or similar tone as something like Batman Begins, but who knows if that'll ever happen.

Aside from that though, saying that there should never be another kids cartoon is just bad business. That would never happen.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

Come on... we all know that the cartoon ghas basically run its course, and the reason why FF and BTTS don't measure up is due to the fact the writers thought that there would be one more season of each. And then when nothing happened, we got all these filler episodes that don't go anywhere, while big, exciting plots go completely unexplored.

Face it. It's been on the air since 2003... 6 years for 7 (or 8... however you count it) seasons. And well over 100 episodes. That in and of itself is a triumph, in the days of lack of interest in kid's animation and production caps. Heck, I'm pretty surprised they would have even let it go on for 5 seasons.

I'm disappointed we won't get the big, dynamic closure we were all expecting. We had more closure with the "Lost" season, dispite the fact it took an odd turn to Naruto-land.

And think about it this way. How many cartoon toy lines are their VS movie toy lines? Sure, we're getting The Brave and the Bold right now, and we had Spectacular Spider-Man and Transformers Animated... but those shows all attribute their success (if you can call it that) due to movies.

Not to mention the fact that if the show was to continue, we'd get more clumsily added toy placements (think of what the show could be like if they integrated the music Turtle line into it. NOT pretty) And Mikey would continue his character slide into big baby, and Raph would still be Oscar the Grouch, mumbling about how stupid Mikey is.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

In all likelihood, I don't doubt that TPTB will still just jump at the next little kid cartoon deal that comes their way with asking only a modest amount of concessions. I just think it's unfortunate. And makes the problems within the TMNT's portrayal in the mass media self-perpetuating.

I expect this is exactly what will happen. Nothing changes for the TMNT so long as TPTB don't change.

[Kendamu]

I don't see what's wrong wtih having a kid's show. I mean, it's not like The Brave and the Bold is eating into public perception of The Dark Knight.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

Come on... we all know that the cartoon ghas basically run its course, and the reason why FF and BTTS don't measure up is due to the fact the writers thought that there would be one more season of each. And then when nothing happened, we got all these filler episodes that don't go anywhere, while big, exciting plots go completely unexplored.

By my count FF had 6 pure fillers out of a total of 26 episodes. Fillers are skippable episodes, but what do you count as filler?

Were Jammerhead's appearances filler? I wouldn't say so, since one ep was also about them catching Darius and the other was the first episode.

Was "The Journal" and/or "Graduation Day" filler? Hm, it really depends on if you consider those eps character building. FF doesn't have that many pointless eps as a whole.

And of BTTS, there were 3 pure fillers out of 13 episodes. The Serling/Turtle Tots ep, Superquest, and possibly that Justice Force episode. Its not that many useless eps as people claim.

I'm disappointed we won't get the big, dynamic closure we were all expecting. We had more closure with the "Lost" season, dispite the fact it took an odd turn to Naruto-land.

Yeah this is true and I agree, it just that having 3 Shredder's in a showdown would be an epic conclusion for the show and the entire Shredder story in general. Maybe we can still get a DTV out of it if we're lucky.

How many cartoon toy lines are their VS movie toy lines? Sure, we're getting The Brave and the Bold right now, and we had Spectacular Spider-Man and Transformers Animated... but those shows all attribute their success (if you can call it that) due to movies.

Well why can't the possible 5th movie revive interest in the cartoon? Seems like a missed opportunity if 4kids drops the series right before a possible 5th movie is announced.

Not to mention the fact that if the show was to continue, we'd get more clumsily added toy placements (think of what the show could be like if they integrated the music Turtle line into it. NOT pretty) And Mikey would continue his character slide into big baby, and Raph would still be Oscar the Grouch, mumbling about how stupid Mikey is.

Raph's been making fun of Mikey since the first season. While its true Mike has had his character played for laughs too much, it doesn't bother me that much.

And I doubt we'd see stupid stuff like Music Turtles actually in the cartoon. There's no way to work something like that in there.

[TristanHuwJones]

Just a quick update regarding Tales Sales:

Tales #54 made number 278 on the top 300 sales for January.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html

[gobo]

"Tales Sales"... Awesome.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Just a quick update regarding Tales Sales:

Tales #54 made number 278 on the top 300 sales for January.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html

Those aren't the final numbers, though, are they?

If #55 does less than that, there's simply no justice in the world.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

I don't see what's wrong wtih having a kid's show. I mean, it's not like The Brave and the Bold is eating into public perception of The Dark Knight.

Yes... but TMNT first needs to have it's own Dark Knight, or even its own Batman Begins. It doesn't. It's never had that.