Some insight from inside the TMNT World

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics.

Never is a strong word. It only takes one up-and-coming director that's a Mirage fan (alternately, who becomes familiar with the Mirage TMNT) with a hit or two under his belt who takes up TMNT as a labor of love. With enough stock to have, if not carte blanche, then enough pull to make more or less exactly the movie they want to make with little/no pressure to make toys and make absolutely sure it offends absolutely no one anywhere of any age.

I agree there's almost better odds at winning big at the casino on a given night, but it's far from impossible. It happens all the time.

That said-- buy the comics people!

There's nothing I'd wish to see more than more people reading the comics. And yes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander here.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics. There might be some nice nods and all that, but the studios and investors are going to expect what's popular.

If that is the case then there never be a faithful Mirage adaption, since there will most likely always be some form of kid related show in the works and any investor who is remotely familiar with the TMNT franchise will look back on the billions it has made as kids property.

Until the comics become popular again, the chances (in my mind anyway) of seeing a faithful Mirage movie are zero and none. Spiderman and the X-men movies all came at a point when there were no TV Shows, same with Begins (the Batman started as a response to its production), which was why they were as faithful to the source material as they were. All there really was at the time was the comics and the toylines (there's your proof that a toyline can continue without a cartoon actually, if a company is willing to try).

The comics have long way to go before it could even challenge the cartoons in popularity, but if movies such Spiderman and the X-Men are the measuring sticks for faithful movie adaptations, then something like that isn't really that impossible for the ninja turtles.

[Andrew NDB]

To be fair, and it's not that I don't want to see Mirage TMNT doing gangbusters in sales, but I don't think the sales of a given comic have ever had anything to do with whether or not a faithful adaption gets to the screen.

I don't think Hellboy over at Dark Horse Comics was ever pulling Batman or X-Men sales, yet Guillmero Del Toro had a couple of hits under his belt, chose Hellboy as his next project, and nobody in Hollywood effed with him or tried to change his vision.

[TristanHuwJones]

This is true, but Hellboy also doesn't have the various different incarnations the Turtles have had (certainly not one of the most memorable and successful cartoon shows in history). Same with Sin City.

The popularity of the Turtles at the time certainly had a big say in how the movies turned out, which you can see just by looking at them. The original was a blend of the cartoon and the comic, because the comic had revolutionized the B&W boom of the 80's, and the cartoon was really going strong. When 2 came about it was all about trying to get Rocksteady and Bebop in there. 2k7's movie, while very much its own thing, also felt a lot like what was happening in the 2k3 season at the time (and it had the coloured bandanas).

If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

This is true, but Hellboy also doesn't have the various different incarnations the Turtles have had (certainly not one of the most memorable and successful cartoon shows in history).

It certainly doesn't help.

Same with Sin City.

Another good example to my case, though. Even if there had been some kind of pre-existing "Sin City: The Animated Series" with Hartigan and Marv parading around saying "Darn!" and "Dang it!" while throwing bolas at costumed bad guys instead of bullets, Rodriguez had a track record with a studio, decided he liked the comics, and made the ****ing movie he wanted to make.

It also doesn't hurt that Rodriguez famously knows how to make quality movies on the cheap.

The popularity of the Turtles at the time certainly had a big say in how the movies turned out, which you can see just by looking at them. The original was a blend of the cartoon and the comic, because the comic had revolutionized the B&W boom of the 80's, and the cartoon was really going strong. When 2 came about it was all about trying to get Rocksteady and Bebop in there. 2k7's movie, while very much its own thing, also felt a lot like what was happening in the 2k3 season at the time (and it had the coloured bandanas).

If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

I hear you, but TMNT 1 was just a traditional Hollywood/studio-spawned film. We lucked out that TPTB liked enough in the Mirage source material that a lot of it made it to the screen in some form, but let's not confuse the issue -- Golden Harvest saw a cartoon doing gangbusters, saw a toy line doing gangbusters, and a population of kiddies going crazy over TMNT, so they went to Mirage for movie rights, found a director, etc., and basically built the movie from the ground up on their end.

I'm not talking about that or suggesting that, and you can't compare that to Hellboy.

I'm talking about a director that has a hit or two under his belt, has a multi-picture deal with a studio and basically gets to pick his next film... not the other way around (the studio deciding they want to make TMNT Part 10 and then finding a director, etc.).

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I don't think Hellboy over at Dark Horse Comics was ever pulling Batman or X-Men sales, yet Guillmero Del Toro had a couple of hits under his belt, chose Hellboy as his next project, and nobody in Hollywood effed with him or tried to change his vision.

Right around the time the first Hellboy movie was made, the comics were in pretty bad shape, the movie basically saved the Hellboy comics.

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

If you don't have a cartoon running, and the comics are suddenly popular again, what do you think people are likely to look to for source material, especially if the comic manages/d to outlast the cartoon shows? I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's a possible scenario, and the only one (combined with yours Andrew) that's likely to get us a truly Mirage-esque movie.

Or you can have a studio see the value and money making potential in such a movie, and now would be the best time with movies such as the Dark Knight and Iron Man doing huge business at the boxoffice, which right now is the most realistic way of obtaining a Mirage-esque movie.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Or you can have a studio see the value and money making potential in such a movie, and now would be the best time with movies such as the Dark Knight and Iron Man doing huge business at the boxoffice, which right now is the most realistic way obtaining a Mirage-esque movie.

Precisely. Right now, insomuch as studios are concerned with superhero movies now, we're in "The Darkening" period... make'em as dark'n gritty as possible (literally, this is what is coming from studios' summits).

Which works fine for the TMNT, since all they need to do is just make a faithful take on the Mirage TMNT. Bam -- dark and gritty. They don't even need to make any changes beyond whatever is entailed in translating a comic book vision to the screen through the looking glass of a director with a vision.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

See, I tend to think that as long as a TV show like FF, BttS and, as the first movies proved, the Old toon are on the air, you're never going to get a movie remotely similar to the comics. There might be some nice nods and all that, but the studios and investors are going to expect what's popular.

Until the comics become popular again, the chances (in my mind anyway) of seeing a faithful Mirage movie are zero and none.

I think the first movie is "remotely similar" to the comics. It was darker than the cartoon, and followed a very similar plot. It also had similarities to the cartoon, which was important to make it as marketable as possible. I think blending the two versions of the turtles was, and still is, the best way to go.

[Canadian Turtle]

A few of you who have been "optimistic" thank you!

Reira - CRAZY cool Talbot piece, that guy is the man, I had the chance to chat with him a bit down in New York, but unfortunately he was not around when I was at Mirage. I hope to grab something similar to yours sometime.

Its not all bad that this thread has become an open debate on what the next movie should be about, compared to the past movies. In itself we see how rich our TMNT history has been with all versions good and bad, and those at Mirage share common opinions on the outcome of these products in some cases.

Thanks for not making it out to be any one persons fault or responsibility for any "injustice" that you may feel has been done to the property. Just remember it is a business which relies on a complex world of producers, money, and writers, all working for better or worse to bring what they think is the most commercially viable product while staying true to the property at the same time, this is no easy task. Keeping in mind also that Mirage reads what you say, even on here, and takes it into consideration so again if you have an opinion on it thank you for voicing that with some respect.

[CyberCubed]

The TMNT franchise cannot thrive without a cartoon on the air. There goes free advertising.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

It also had similarities to the cartoon, which was important to make it as marketable as possible. I think blending the two versions of the turtles was, and still is, the best way to go.

I couldn't disagree more. There's no pleasing everyone and it's foolish to try.

In any case, they've tried everything but a straight-out adaption (and by straight adaption I'm not necessarily suggesting any kind of word-for-word, verbatim, panel-for-panel adaption like Sin City) of the Mirage TMNT material. In many ways, it's the last thing left to try.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The TMNT franchise cannot thrive without a cartoon on the air. There goes free advertising.

Cartoons are not free.

[Drtooth]

I'm probably the only one here who liked and still likes the 2k7 movie, but it really came off more like an OVA of the current series, only CGI, theatrically released, and with different voice actors. Of course, it didn't hurt that the 2k3 series had the turtles with the same personalities as their first 3 movies.... unlike the OT vs those films.

I really want to see a fifth movie, and I want to see it dark and gritty,don't forget it's up to film producers, a studio, and other financial backers. 2k7 did well enough to warrant a sequel... but only in the terms that 2K7 was low budget, and did pretty good initially with the merchandising. We were going to get another film by the same studio, but they wanted some goof ball comedy film with (and this is an educated guess since they have an ex-Dreamworks guy now) celebrity voice actors, fart jokes, and useless pop culture references (and I mean, outside of the WB forced advertisement for Gilmore Girls) by the bowlful. A fifth movie on the part of another company is going to be an amazing feat just to pitch... and they really need to strike while the iron is hot, since the comic book movie fad won't last forever.

But then again, I bet 90% of casual, nostalgic fans will whine that the turtles don't say cowabunga a hundred times, and that Bebop and Rocksteady aren't in the film.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Cartoons are not free.

For 4kids/Mirage they are not of course, but for the viewers, as long as its not on cable, its free advertising to bring a new generation of kids into the TMNT fandom.

TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.

Its as I said, oh wow, TMNT is going back to being an obscure comic book franchise that nobody buy's outside of us hardcore fans anyway. Well isn't that just nice?

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.

Okay... here's something... let's say they were going to make a new season of TMNT. Now, following their model, the next season would have some action figure based plot line, the characters would further get Flanderized, the show would still be lighter and airier than it should be, and the fan base would complain about how terrible it is, and pretty much beg for it to be canceled and then whine when it is.

Now one of 2 things can happen. They'll use this as a strategic restructuring, trying to come up with a better concept for the current show in 2 years... or we'll have to wait 3-5 years for another relaunch. Now, that sounds much better than having the Turtles use the power of music to find the 7 crystal notes so they can free April from the silent dimension, or Teenage Mutant Firefightin' Turtles: Fightin' Fires in SPA-A-A-A-ACE!

Besides, 4kids will no doubt keep rerunning TMNT for the foreseeable future. it's one of their biggest hits, even in reruns. look how long they reran Sonic X, and it has less than half the episodes TMNT has.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

I'm probably the only one here who liked and still likes the 2k7 movie, but it really came off more like an OVA of the current series, only CGI, theatrically released, and with different voice actors. Of course, it didn't hurt that the 2k3 series had the turtles with the same personalities as their first 3 movies.... unlike the OT vs those films.

I liked the 2k7 movie, a bit more action (which is the only real thing that will bring in casual non TMNT fans), a bit more character and story development, and perhaps better human models, and I personally wouldn't hesitate in saying the 2k7 movie was the best TMNT movie ever produced.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

TMNT cannot possibly thrive on just being a comic book series. That's why I find it truly bizarre that people say, "Be optimistic" when the cartoon and possibly toyline are both ending.

As far as the future of TMNT as a kids franchise is concerned, there really doesn't need to be any doom and gloom, since TMNT has already proven it can come back and find a new audience. The reality is that cartoons and toylines end, it's just that simple, but it doesn't mean they won't come back, TMNT has already proved itself.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

But then again, I bet 90% of casual, nostalgic fans will whine that the turtles don't say cowabunga a hundred times, and that Bebop and Rocksteady aren't in the film.

F***'em. It's time to stop punishing the TMNT as a franchise just because they're not aware of the TMNT's Mirage comic beginnings. It's not the TMNT's fault for that, is it?

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

F***'em. It's time to stop punishing the TMNT as a franchise just because they're not aware of the TMNT's Mirage comic beginnings. It's not the TMNT's fault for that, is it?

Hence why I think that another movie should be put off by about another 5 or 10 years. By that point, all the nostalgia freaks will be kids who grew up with 2k3. With that market in mind, a more faithful adaption can be made and appreciated by people who grew up with a continuity similar to the one many of us are wanting to see adapted. By that time, all the casuals who are our age won't really give a crap and, if they do, they'll be outnumbered by a bunch of people in their 20s who grew up on 2k3.

EDIT: I am of the personal belief, however, that characters such as Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady can easily fit into a more serious continuity if they were treated more like their OT Season 1 selves. I don't expect it to ever happen, but I do think it's possible.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

Okay... here's something... let's say they were going to make a new season of TMNT. Now, following their model, the next season would have some action figure based plot line, the characters would further get Flanderized, the show would still be lighter and airier than it should be, and the fan base would complain about how terrible it is, and pretty much beg for it to be canceled and then whine when it is.

But we don't know that. BTTS did make the show a bit darker, they thankfully dropped "It's Ninja Time" and the actual color and tone of the show isn't so bright like it is in FF. I also like the character designs for the Turtles more this season.

Thankfully with Splinter rescued the whole cyber world theme would be dropped, and if the 3 Shredder thing was any indication, next season could have been great. I don't doubt they'd throw in some toy adverts in there, but I feel it could have been only up from here sans the animation.

Now one of 2 things can happen. They'll use this as a strategic restructuring, trying to come up with a better concept for the current show in 2 years... or we'll have to wait 3-5 years for another relaunch.

That's what I don't want, another re-launch. I wouldn't mind the show sitting on the shelf for awhile before they go back to it, but I'd rather they just continue where they left off from the end of BTTS rather than another re-boot. If 4kids still airs reruns its not like kids would be lost, and there's no need to re-introduce everything again.

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

As far as the future of TMNT as a kids franchise is concerned, there really doesn't need to be any doom and gloom, since TMNT has already proven it can come back and find a new audience. The reality is that cartoons and toylines end, it's just that simple, but it doesn't mean they won't come back, TMNT has already proved itself.

Before 4kids, there were two failed attempts to bring the Turtles back. That CG-I show that no network wanted, and the proposed WB cartoon.

4kids took a chance on the show when nobody else wanted to. Without 4kids, where can a cartoon air? When 2k3 reruns aired on Cartoon Network the show tanked in the ratings. If there isn't a viable cartoon channel for a new show, TMNT is screwed.

Which is why its a shame 4kids is dropping it, Mirage really doesn't have any options otherwise, especially since KidsWb died.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

That's what I don't want, another re-launch. I wouldn't mind the show sitting on the shelf for awhile before they go back to it, but I'd rather they just continue where they left off from the end of BTTS rather than another re-boot. If 4kids still airs reruns its not like kids would be lost, and there's no need to re-introduce everything again.

I see what you're getting at, and my view still stands. It would be great to have one last season that closes up all the loose ends, (having a small arc where the turtles go back to the future to save Cody from Darius... The Shredder Wars... and all that), but I don't think we'd get that. I think BTTS was halfway decent, in as much as only half the episodes were good (Of course, I'm estimating the season finale is going to be one of them)... in fact, if you cut out most of the redundancies and the 2 terrible episodes, you would have gotten a much more positive outlook by the fans. I like what they were trying to do with BTTS... I just wish they stuck closer to it.

And whos to say that 4Kids won't be Mirage's licensing partner 5 years from now? All they have to do to keep afloat is keep making T-Shirts and stuff like that. And I still say a reboot with another tone in mind... like Ultimate TMNT... would be their best chance. Preferably after a fifth movie actually gets made. And who knows. Maybe the market would open up for new TMNT toys.

Look at Batman. We had Batman TAS, then Batman Beyond, then Justice League, then Batman Begins, The Batman, and Brave and the Bold. And the last 2 aren't even a full year apart from when the last one ended and the first one began. Spider-Man too. Since the movies started there have been 2 different animated series. That's what keeps these comic book based cartoons on the air... they're all different incarnations of the same thing, sort of like how they are in comic form. Plus, it helps them to stay fresh.