Would you be interested in helping in an Image Vol. 3 conclusion?

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by ***CJJ***

I have been making comparisons between Vol. 3 and Vol. 4 FOR YEARS. Pete is kind of a hypocrite in the sense that he decided Vol. 3 "never existed" as far as the TMNT universe was concerned, but yet "borrowed" many of its tropes (like Raphael getting bitten by Vampires and experiencing another mutation).

PL never said he hated the Image series, he just said that wasn't the direction he would have taken the series in. Which is kinda odd, since he was quite happy with all the Image plots originally back in...1997 or so?

And yeah, what is the difference between what happens in Image, or what happens to Raph and Don in Volume 4?

Raphael has been mutated into his gamera form for what...nearly 20 issues now? How is that different than Don being a cyborg for around 20 issues?

As long as the Turtles, "return to normal," at some point, I don't see the complaining. I always assumed while reading Image that Don would ditch the cyborg armor and that Raph's face would heal, just like we know if Volume 4 ever ends, the Turtles all return to normal there too.

Leo losing his hand is the only one I don't know how they planned to, "fix." Raph's and Don's injuries are easy to address, but I find Leo losing his hand to be a bit hard to swallow, especially if he just, "grows a new one."

[DrSpengler]

My only problem is that if you read Vol. 3 and Vol. 4 in sequence, the characters never ever talk about what happened to them in Vol. 3 ever again.

Which from the standpoint of internal logic (ignoring the various editorial explanations as to why they made to reference, of course) would be really odd. Not even a "Hey, remember that time I was a Cyborg and Raph became the Shredder for ten minutes? Dude, that was weird".


But then, you know, considering all the bizarre things that happen to the TMNT on a seemingly daily basis, maybe being turned into a cyborg, losing a hand, becoming the Shredder, etc, are just considered by them as a "Tuesday".

So I guess you could write it off like that. I mean, yeah, Leo lost a hand, got it back and never mentioned the even again. But by the same token, he also lost his eyesight for five issues in Tales Vol. 2, got it back and never mentioned it again.

So I think I just came to terms with myself in writing this reply. Damn.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

So I guess you could write it off like that. I mean, yeah, Leo lost a hand, got it back and never mentioned the even again. But by the same token, he also lost his eyesight for five issues in Tales Vol. 2, got it back and never mentioned it again.

Dang, was it really 5 years? I'm guessing that was stated in the Blind Sight mini-series? Makes you wonder what everybody else was doing in the meantime. I really need to find those issues!

[CyberCubed]

5 issues, not 5 years.

I also think the lack of references to Image can be explained like the lack of Tales references. Since many of those Tales issues weren't written yet, the characters couldn't reference them in the other volumes that took place after it.

After all, the Turtles NEVER mentioned the shark Shredder in Volume 1, 2, 3 or 4. Why? That Tales story didn't exist yet, but in the timeline it had to have happened. They just don't mention it.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

5 issues, not 5 years.

Oops, my screen must be too bright or something. Guess I just can't read those words right tonight....

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I like this picture. A lot! It seems fitting in so many ways.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

And yeah, what is the difference between what happens in Image, or what happens to Raph and Don in Volume 4?

No, no, no. Raphael getting bit by vampires and the way in which it activated some sort of "primitive" saurian strain of DNA is sort of like SPLINTER'S mutation in Vol. 3. Especially in the sense that Splinter and Raph BOTH "returned to normal"-- even if Raph only returned to normal in the sense that he was no longer acting like a feral animal. Strangely enough, it was Raph that caused Splinter to "remember" his past life as a mutant bat (while wearing his Shredder armor), and it was Splinter's spirit that caused Raphael to be able to center himself as a being of higher awareness in Vol. 4.

[CyberCubed]

I see the similarities. Back in #2 when Mike falls out of the helicopter to be rescued by Raptaar, someone wrote in to the letters saying it reminded them of Don falling out of the cyborg helicopter in Volume 3.

Also, anyone notice Casey goes through very similar depression in Image/Volume 4? His whole feeling of worthlessness and not being good enough to hold his family together?

What I love most of all is that Shadow's backstory was revealed in Image, which continues to add another aspect of her character which continues all the way till when she's an adult.

And on top of that, there's even Leatherhead's "going insane," aspect from the mutagen shown in Image, his healing ability which was explained in Tales, as well as his friendship with Dr. X the Utrom.

When you stop to think about it, so much of Image's storylines fit in so well with what happened in Tales and Volume 4 that its ridiculous NOT to include it back into continuity.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

PL never said he hated the Image series, he just said that wasn't the direction he would have taken the series in. Which is kinda odd, since he was quite happy with all the Image plots originally back in...1997 or so?

It's more than odd... it's downright bizarre, since Peter Laird not only approved every single storyline and issue but actively contributed to them himself.

Leo losing his hand is the only one I don't know how they planned to, "fix." Raph's and Don's injuries are easy to address, but I find Leo losing his hand to be a bit hard to swallow, especially if he just, "grows a new one."

It may sound a little silly, but they wouldn't be the first reptiles to be able to do so... and the reptiles that do don't even have mutagen doing funky evolutionary things to their DNA.

[Billbeaux]

Do you--or anyone--know what story elements Laird (and/or Eastman) contributed directly? For that matter, how much editorial input did they have? I've heard everything from: "Carlson had full autonomy as long as he kept anything too crazy out of it" (i.e., female turtles, human/turtle nookie, etc) to "Carlson had to run each script by the Mirage honchos."

Can anybody set me straight?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Billbeaux

Do you--or anyone--know what story elements Laird (and/or Eastman) contributed directly? For that matter, how much editorial input did they have? I've heard everything from: "Carlson had full autonomy as long as he kept anything too crazy out of it" (i.e., female turtles, human/turtle nookie, etc) to "Carlson had to run each script by the Mirage honchos."

Can anybody set me straight?

I know that Laird offered/suggested that Gary kill off Splinter right off the bat. Beyond that, yes, by the same token that Peter Laird won't ever publish any Turtle comics that he won't personally approve (barring that spot of time around TMNT Part Four where he delegated that to Murphy), he personally approved every Carlson script. Gary did mention that he had a great rapport with Laird, that Laird would throw him ideas/suggestions and he would run with them... I don't think he's ever mentioned exactly what they were but I suspect it might be things like Leatherhead's madness. Dr. X wasn't something Gary dreamed up either. When Gary says he had "full autonomy" I think he's more referring to the fact that there was very little -- if anything at all -- that Laird ever said "No, you can't do that" to.

Which really begs the question that if years later it turned out that there were things that Laird objected to in Vol. 3 or felt "un-Mirage TMNT-like," why didn't he open his mouth and say something when he was in every position to do so? Why didn't he help Gary make Vol. 3 be more in-line with the universe it was obviously continuing/a part of? Why not any of this, instead of telling Gary his stuff is great and the world that it is an "exciting, innovative comic" that "has heart, soul... and balls" (these are Peter Laird's actual words from the Image TPB) only to backtrack on all of it years later? These aren't questions that anyone is bitter about, but ones that remain unanswered beyond Laird's simple, "They weren't what I would have done" in Vol. 4's lettercol.

And Kevin didn't contribute anything creatively to the pot in Vol. 3 aside from money keeping it afloat for a while at the end... which, when you think about it, actually contributes quite a lot creatively (i.e., there might have been quite a few issues at the end of Vol. 3 we never would have seeen).

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Originally Posted by Venom

I like this picture. A lot! It seems fitting in so many ways.

Personally it's probably my favorite Frank rough pencils-job. It's just so poignant, and on different levels.

There's one with Leonardo and King Komodo that's pretty cool too.

So I guess you could write it off like that. I mean, yeah, Leo lost a hand, got it back and never mentioned the event again. But by the same token, he also lost his eyesight for five issues in Tales Vol. 2, got it back and never mentioned it again.

This is an excellent point, by the way.

[CyberCubed]

The only thing about the Image series that PL probably did truly dislike originally is the brief Mike/Sara romance, and possibly the crossovers with the Image superheroes like Nightwatchman and Vanguard, etc.

Not that it matters much as superheroes always existed in the Mirage universe, but I'm not sure how PL cares about those particular ones.

That part of the Image series always felt like, "filler," to me anyway. It was like they just had the Turtles crossover with a bunch of Image characters for no real reason.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The only thing about the Image series that PL probably did truly dislike originally is the brief Mike/Sara romance,

Which you would probably agree would be strange, given the relationship Laird would place him in shortly thereafter in Volume 4. And Sara/Horridus wouldn't even fall under the "Turtles don't get in relationships/become intimate with humans" clause of Laird's... because she wasn't human.

Well, sort of. Her mother was abducted by aliens and impregnated by them... but it didn't look like she retained any human DNA from her mother at all.

and possibly the crossovers with the Image superheroes like Nightwatchman and Vanguard, etc.

You might be right. Which would also be strange, and in no small part for the reasons you mention. What would be stranger, though -- I think -- is if the TMNT in Vol. 3 didn't run into any Image characters at all, ever.

On another note, it sounds like I'll have my first peek at the finished pencils of A.C. Farley's pages tomorrow... very exciting stuff.

[CyberCubed]

Whatever happened to that Johnny Raeburn character or whatever his name was? He appeared in the Image series comics afterward?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Whatever happened to that Johnny Raeburn character or whatever his name was? He appeared in the Image series comics afterward?

Frank and I were just talking about him on the phone not even a week ago... no, apparently he was never seen, heard from, or mentioned ever again after that. Which is too bad... he was a pretty striking villain with a pretty spooky origin.

Gary and Frank do have a Vanguard backup coming up... I suggested maybe he could be squeezed in there somehow, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Andrew NDB]

A quick peek at one corner/fragment of A.C. Farley's two-page spread. Uninked.



Maybe some of it looks somehow... familiar?

[Venom]

OH SWEET, a return to the Halls of Lost Legends!!!

[CyberCubed]

I think PL tried to de-canonize that issue too, lol.

I'm glad now we don't have to go by PL's "views," as to which is canon and which isn't. Sad to say as he is the creator, but I didn't like the way he dismissed good issues for no reason.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Venom

OH SWEET, a return to the Halls of Lost Legends!!!

As far as I've ever been concerned, all roads lead to the Halls of Lost Legends.