TMNT #4 Preview and Discussion...

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Samhain

Can't freaking wait! I especially like this panel. Just LOVE it.

Man, the mutagen really does work fast, doesn't it?

Looks like the full mutation happened in a matter of seconds.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Man, the mutagen really does work fast, doesn't it?

Looks like the full mutation happened in a matter of seconds.

Yeah, seems like Raphael is mutating there from a baby turtle to his full mutated form faster than Bruce Banner changes into the Hulk.

I'm still looking forward to reading the full story about this because for right now... there's a lot of cons and not very many pros for the mutagen working like that.

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Man, the mutagen really does work fast, doesn't it?

Looks like the full mutation happened in a matter of seconds.

No where in that panel does it indicate exactly how long it took to happen.

[Toby Barrett]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yeah, seems like Raphael is mutating there from a baby turtle to his full mutated form faster than Bruce Banner changes into the Hulk.

I'm still looking forward to reading the full story about this because for right now... there's a lot of cons and not very many pros for the mutagen working like that.

In your opinion at least. I can think of several pros I believe in as a fan of mutant characters.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Samhain

No where in that panel does it indicate exactly how long it took to happen.

Doesn't seem like he was there for more than a few hours at least. Otherwise he would have moved around.

[junkboy]

In Mirage series, and especially in Tales of TMNT series 2, there were stories with kid turtles, right.
I mean , them running inside the sewers, with their all over the head type bandanas , trying to go to the far places forbidden by Splinter, etc.

The turtles' life before being "teenage" was an era i really like.

This faster mutation thing both in the first moment they touch the mutagen ( and also everything starts just 1 year later after that, right? They are adult-like in just 1 year )
Tho after seeing that panel up, being in that form in just 1 year did not seem weird to me.
It makes sense at least... but do i like it? No...

The panel looks wicked cool tho. I really liked it as well.



Btw i resisted myself and will not be looking at the preview. Big paper fan here and the best thing about the new series is the surprise factor even for old fans. Maybe more surprising for the old fans.
According to your posts tho, i am very very happy that there is finally some stuff ( or will be some stuff in the upcoming issues ) about why Splinter choosing an eastern philosophy to teach the guys other than it being cool.
That was my biggest concern since issue 2. I mean, not relating Splinter to Japan.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Toby Barrett

In your opinion at least. I can think of several pros I believe in as a fan of mutant characters.

This is what I've got, you tell me what you've got:

(to plagiarize myself)

Pros:

* In this given universe in which the idea is to interwine April into their most humble beginnings, if they instantly mutate then there’s not a 15 (or whatever) year gap between when she first “meets” them and when she sees them next. Keeps things moving, organic.
* With the rule set that mutagen in the IDW TMNT universe is relatively instantaneous, the gates are opened for the IDW TMNT universe to freely, actively have new mutants being created via the same mutagen as opposed to taking years to grow naturally into the fully humanoid mutant state. Though I’m not entirely sure this is really a “pro” at all. While I don’t quite share Peter Laird’s longstanding embargo on, “Keep them unique, any other mutants make them less unique” I have no interest in things becoming a mutant-of-the-week affair either.
* Fred Wolf cartoon fans can feel a little more at home, I guess?

Drawing a blank on other pros, frankly.

Cons:
* We have to swallow that the Turtles’ entire state of sentience is strictly 15 months, yet they somehow possess the minds of teenagers (if I throw mutagen on my 10 year old cat and tomorrow he’s Cat Man, he wouldn’t be telling me about how 4 years ago I forgot to clean out his sh*tter… this is silly). 15 months. If this was the Fred Wolf cartoon, in which all kinds of wackiness and tom-foolery (no pun intended) was going on left and right it was easy to overlook… but it’s very difficult to understand how and why this take on the mutation was settled on by IDW if apart from it they seem to be bending over backwards to explain the science of things and grounding things in reality (at least at the base level).
* Everything else aside, we absolutely need to buy that the Turtles are ninja. I’m OK with seeing a little bit of a “they’re still learning the ropes” at this starting point, but I don’t know how long it’s going to make business or creative sense to still see them fumbling around with their weapons. And if the plan is to just kind of bury our heads in the sand and go, “It was a particularly strenuous 15 months of ninja training, they totally kick ass now!” then that’s not a plan at all. I’m sure more sooner than later we’re going to see the TMNT fighting fully training ninjas in battle and we’re going to be seeing the Turtles winning… and at this point the Turtles’ mere 15 months of training is going to be firmly in the back of our minds, sucking all the sense of realism the comic has been striving for right out of the room.
* The family bonds between the Turtles themselves (though I like what this means for Raphael, who is now, truly the outsider) and Splinter, while not thrown out the window, are greatly diminished. No matter what word balloons are shown, the bond forged over the course of 15 months is not the same as a bond forged over the course of 15 years of depending on one another.

[CyberCubed]

TomWaltz keeps saying the Turtles only being mutated for 15 months will be addressed at some point...so I wonder what it is. Because as said they can't possibly be "teenagers" if they are baby turtles instantly mutated.

The only thing I can think of is some bizarre time warp where the Turtles get sent off to for 15 years while time passes slowly on Earth, so when the Turtles return April/Casey are still the same age or something like that.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

TomWaltz keeps saying the Turtles only being mutated for 15 months will be addressed at some point...so I wonder what it is. Because as said they can't possibly be "teenagers" if they are baby turtles instantly mutated.

The only thing I can think of is some bizarre time warp where the Turtles get sent off to for 15 years while time passes slowly on Earth, so when the Turtles return April/Casey are still the same age or something like that.

I doubt time traveling will be a part of the turtles' origin, but hopefully it will be part of some future adventures (no pun intended)!

I get the creeping feeling the explanation will be more along the lines of "the turtles were already 15 years old (or some other teenage year) by the time they mutate" since the writers seem to be advocating the idea that their sentience and self-awareness predate their mutation; Raphael, Splinter, and Old Hob have all displayed recognition of memories that occurred before they were mutated. I'm actually okay with this since at least the logic will be consistent and I kind of like the idea that their lives did not begin with mutation. The teenage issue isn't even really a big deal for me, though I'm sure it is for others; I am simply curious how it will be addressed.

Also of note, the question was asked with Volume 4 about whether Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would continue to be considered "Teenagers" since they were in their 30's in that series to which Peter Laird responded that he essentially just like the title and won't be changing it. Thinking of them as teenagers is an iconic part of their comic book identity, so even though they are now in their 30's, he probably just considered it a continuation of their adventures that begin with their teen years. That's how I'd like to think of it, anyway.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Matches Malone

Also of note, the question was asked with Volume 4 about whether Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would continue to be considered "Teenagers" since they were in their 30's in that series to which Peter Laird responded that he essentially just like the title and won't be changing it. Thinking of them as teenagers is an iconic part of their comic book identity, so even though they are now in their 30's, he probably just considered it a continuation of their adventures that begin with their teen years.

I never liked that and always advocated a shortening to just "NINJA TURTLES" upon their 20th birthday.

What Vol. 3 was going to do was put a big "X" over the "TEENAGE" at that time.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

This is what I've got, you tell me what you've got:

(to plagiarize myself)

Cons:
* We have to swallow that the Turtles’ entire state of sentience is strictly 15 months, yet they somehow possess the minds of teenagers (if I throw mutagen on my 10 year old cat and tomorrow he’s Cat Man, he wouldn’t be telling me about how 4 years ago I forgot to clean out his sh*tter… this is silly). 15 months. If this was the Fred Wolf cartoon, in which all kinds of wackiness and tom-foolery (no pun intended) was going on left and right it was easy to overlook… but it’s very difficult to understand how and why this take on the mutation was settled on by IDW if apart from it they seem to be bending over backwards to explain the science of things and grounding things in reality (at least at the base level).
* Everything else aside, we absolutely need to buy that the Turtles are ninja. I’m OK with seeing a little bit of a “they’re still learning the ropes” at this starting point, but I don’t know how long it’s going to make business or creative sense to still see them fumbling around with their weapons. And if the plan is to just kind of bury our heads in the sand and go, “It was a particularly strenuous 15 months of ninja training, they totally kick ass now!” then that’s not a plan at all. I’m sure more sooner than later we’re going to see the TMNT fighting fully training ninjas in battle and we’re going to be seeing the Turtles winning… and at this point the Turtles’ mere 15 months of training is going to be firmly in the back of our minds, sucking all the sense of realism the comic has been striving for right out of the room.
* The family bonds between the Turtles themselves (though I like what this means for Raphael, who is now, truly the outsider) and Splinter, while not thrown out the window, are greatly diminished. No matter what word balloons are shown, the bond forged over the course of 15 months is not the same as a bond forged over the course of 15 years of depending on one another.[/I]

Indeed, I think it is a little more realistic to have mutation be a slower process than with what we've seen so far in this series, but I'm also the type to let things like that go a little more. The fast mutation process definitely opens up for the possibility of more mutants, but it doesn't mean it will necessarily be abused to whacky proportions but we will find out in good time.

As for 15 month period of training and familial connections, I'm okay with considering this as analogous to when we would have typically seen "pre-teen" Mirage turtles adventures. I don't think if we saw little kid 15 month old turtles in a "Tales" type issue, we would have questioned the authenticity or strength of their family, would we? The moment you have your first kid, you don't feel like you have to "earn" family ties. You are a family from day one.

Also, as I've mentioned previously, in #1 of Vol. 1, Splinter says the turtles had grown to full size within a year but was retconned in #9 of Vol. 1 when we see the "pre-teen" turtles; so I would argue accelerated mutation doesn't necessarily go against the original source material if they couldn't even make up their minds at first between issues #1-#9. Also noting in the same vein, that the same issue #9 involved pre-teen turtles taking on and defeating fully trained ninja assassins when saving Gosei. I think, to the dismay of some comic fans, the creators have shown some flexibility when it comes to ironing some of these details out.

I think your points are for the most part fair and well thought-out. I just thought I'd throw in a few more things to consider to see what you think.

[junkboy]

The turtles not being baby turtles ( more like a pre-mutated teen turtle, tho not sure about the turtle age type equivalent of that ) at their pre-mutated stage does not seem bad to me as well.
That "1 year ago , 1 year later" thing was really bugging me.
I guess and hope we will be seeing some stuff filling up the gaps between.
I look forward to issues 4 and 5.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by junkboy

That "1 year ago , 1 year later" thing was really bugging me.

Actually, I really like all the flashback style narrative Tom and Eastman have been using to tell the story, because it's almost like getting 3 different stories at the same time and it's fun to see how those 3 strands all parallel and converge to make one big story. It feels like a very modern storytelling device but it works really well in my opinion, but I guess it doesn't work for everyone.

[Jester]

Well...got it read it...smiled because my letter got printed.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what I think about what I read from Splinter. So the Turtles and Splinter have been a family in the past and are now a family again, with new names? Is ninja mysticism the key? Reincarnation? Like Splinter himself said in the 4kids series, every answer just seems to raise more questions. I'm a little leery, but I'm growing to like Tom because of his hearty jests here so I'm willing to see where he's going with this...but I'm just so confused.

[TomWaltz]

Originally Posted by Jester

Well...got it read it...smiled because my letter got printed.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what I think about what I read from Splinter. So the Turtles and Splinter have been a family in the past and are now a family again, with new names? Is ninja mysticism the key? Reincarnation? Like Splinter himself said in the 4kids series, every answer just seems to raise more questions. I'm a little leery, but I'm growing to like Tom because of his hearty jests here so I'm willing to see where he's going with this...but I'm just so confused.

Spoiler:

Confusion is good! Many answers coming in #5... and more questions. Mwahahahahaha!!!!

[Jester]

BLAST YOU TOM WALTZ!!!

I'm so having a love/hate relationship with the confusion hydra you create.

[TomWaltz]

Originally Posted by Jester

BLAST YOU TOM WALTZ!!!

I'm so having a love/hate relationship with the confusion hydra you create.

As long as there's love in there, we're good...

[DrSpengler]

Here's my review of TMNT #4 at TMNT Entity.

I don't get much satisfaction out of writing negative reviews, but I'm really losing my patience with the pacing of this series.

Still, I'm really liking Dan Duncan's art and Ronda Pattison's colors, so there's always something to enjoy in each issue.

The slow-burn storytelling of the TMNT ongoing has definately begun to wear on me, so I'm hoping the upcoming microseries and Infestation mini manage to tell some snappier plots to help take the edge off of the ongoing's snail's pace.

But as the last page of this issue pointed out, we're #16 bucks in and things still haven't "truly begun".

[TomWaltz]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Here's my review of TMNT #4 at TMNT Entity.

I don't get much satisfaction out of writing negative reviews, but I'm really losing my patience with the pacing of this series.

Still, I'm really liking Dan Duncan's art and Ronda Pattison's colors, so there's always something to enjoy in each issue.

The slow-burn storytelling of the TMNT ongoing has definately begun to wear on me, so I'm hoping the upcoming microseries and Infestation mini manage to tell some snappier plots to help take the edge off of the ongoing's snail's pace.

But as the last page of this issue pointed out, we're #16 bucks in and things still haven't "truly begun".

Good review, DrSpengler -- thanks for taking the time to cover our books!

Only issue I had with your write-up was that you thought I might be "rubbing the decompression" in your face. I actually don't know you personally, so I don't have that sort of vendetta against you in mind as I write TMNT, nor am I the type of creator who'd do that to any of the readers I'm fortunate enough to have checking out my work.

That said, I really do enjoy your write-ups -- as I mention above, I feel very lucky to have fans (any fans) taking the time to scrutinize my stories, even when they don't necessarily agree with my approach. I spend a lot of lonely, isolated time writing, so it's always fun to come out of the dark and into the light, so to speak, and share my efforts with my fellow fans like yourself. I look forward to reading your in-depth reviews of issue #5 and beyond!

Talk soon...

Tom W.

[TomWaltz]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Here's my review of TMNT #4 at TMNT Entity.

I don't get much satisfaction out of writing negative reviews, but I'm really losing my patience with the pacing of this series.

Still, I'm really liking Dan Duncan's art and Ronda Pattison's colors, so there's always something to enjoy in each issue.

The slow-burn storytelling of the TMNT ongoing has definately begun to wear on me, so I'm hoping the upcoming microseries and Infestation mini manage to tell some snappier plots to help take the edge off of the ongoing's snail's pace.

But as the last page of this issue pointed out, we're #16 bucks in and things still haven't "truly begun".

Oh... and I forgot to mention in my last response...

Spoiler:

Your question in you review about Hob/TMNT blood versus Splinter's blood is an excellent one, and will be addressed in a future issue. Good catch!