Spider-Man: The Real Clone Saga

[ZariusTwo]

Has anyone else read this? It's awesome, it makes me wonder why Marvel simply won't use this as the status quoe of the main Spidey books (oh wait, I know "wez needz to keepz Spidey YOUNGZ, NO AGINGZ")

Spoiler:

It basicly rewrites the plot of the entire 1990s Clone Saga, omitting various plot threads from the original to tell a better and more compact story in six parts.

What makes it stand out from the original are things like keeping every major player from the Clone Saga alive at the end (as everyone knows, it's a bit of a bloodbath, with Aunt May, Ben Reily, The Jackle, Doc Ock, and Peter and MJ's daughter May dying, but with the exception of The Jackle, there all alive by the story's conclusion) and throwing in a surprise return from Harry Osborn that, if this had been published in the 90s, would have been a real treat for a more recent reader of the books and would have made MORE SENSE than the "other" surprise return we got from Norman Osborn in the original saga.

For people tired of the mainstream Spidey books d*cking them around and wonder how things might have been if Marvel had just allowed DeFalco to tell his story, this is the book for you.

[AquaParade]

Color me interested! I'll check it out. The Clone saga, as a whole, is no fun to read, but I do appreciate some of the idea's involved.

[Spitfire]

I got this book awhile back. It was alright. Kind of hard to follow if you never read the original or the stories leading up to it. They reference them constantly and since those weren't remade or published again to my knowledge it means you have to use Wiki to fill in the gaps. I read the original as a kid but I don't remember it very well I just knew it had a reputation for being one of the worst Spidey arcs ever. Kind of a shame as a kid I really liked the foil covers the series came with. I also liked all the colorful villains. I forgot was Spidercide in this remake?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I got this book awhile back. It was alright. Kind of hard to follow if you never read the original or the stories leading up to it. They reference them constantly and since those weren't remade or published again to my knowledge it means you have to use Wiki to fill in the gaps.

I had to do a lot of work on the Wiki article for the book, letting people know what the differences were (ex: Peter had a mental breakdown after discovering his parents were robots, but in this truncated version he's more or less fine) , I agree, though Marvel are releasing the original Saga in trades, they neglected to rerelease the stories that triggered Peter's mental breakdown.

I read the original as a kid but I don't remember it very well I just knew it had a reputation for being one of the worst Spidey arcs ever. Kind of a shame as a kid I really liked the foil covers the series came with.

I don't listen to the criticisms all that much, as a kid I was riveted by the saga as I thought it was the beggining of an exciting new era, and having just gotten into Spider-Man, I figured this was going to be what my generation's answer to game-changers like the death of Gwen Stacy, or the Venom symbiote's introduction, or Peter marrying MJ, I thought I was going to be on the ground floor for a new Spidey and see Peter become a father. Alas all that was taken from us because Marvel got it into their heads Peter should be the only Spidey and he was "too young" to be a father. I still got what I wanted in a roundabout way with the Spider-Girl series though, and I consider that the one true Spidey continuity for multiple reasons.

The saga's flaws were stretching a little too long and going in circles, but it's early years are amongst the best Spidey comics ever written, and many of them hold up better than today's product.

I also liked all the colorful villains. I forgot was Spidercide in this remake?

No, Kaine is the only "heavy" involved in the story. No Spidercide, no Scrier, no Traveler, just The Jackal, Doc Ock, and Harry as the villains.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

This might be worth checking out then.

However, I do think that One More Day has replaced the Clone Saga as worst Spider-Man story.

In both cases, they both wound up stinking because they were examples of Marvel deciding to back track and not have Spider-Man grow up. No kid, and then no marriage. Who wants to see Spider-Man doing something new, anyway?

[ZariusTwo]

Yeah, it's a shame we no longer have books like Tom DeFalco's Spider-Girl around to balance things out, in that book we get to see Peter and MJ as effective parents who age and mature, there not the focus of the title, but they still contribute a lot of wisdom to it, and their daughter is a likeable, relatable and worthy successor to the throne.

DeFalco even wrote a few stories set in a time before Peter retired (The 2008 "Mr and Mrs Spider-Man" series), and those stories were pretty fun and easily proved you could tell stories with Peter as a father who still functioned as Spider-Man and juggled the two responsibilites, alas the strips didnt continue.

Marvel may think going "back to basics" is the way to go, but there hasnt been ONE essential Spider-Man story since 2007's "To Have and To Hold" was nominated for an Eisner and with the way the books are written now, there won't be a "must-read" for a good long time. We've went from the days of Mysterio plotting out the meticulous mental breakdown of Daredevil...to Mysterio playing angry birds to pass the time whilst he and Doc Ock plan world domination. Stuff like that just kills the virisimilitude for me and tells me "you are wasting your time, if we don't take these characters seriously, why should you?"

I talked to my local comic store owner, and he agrees with me...Spidey's story, thanks to books like Spider-Girl, has been effectivly concluded, all Marvel have now to tell are retreads that keep Spidey in a holdiing pattern for the forseeable future, he can't get married, he can't have kids, he must always be a loser...who wants to read about a consistent loser when you can read about a more succesful and accomplished family man in Spider-Girl, or even this particular book?

[Metropoliskid41]

I'll have to check this out, I really loved the clone saga, it was the first Spidey arc I read. It really had some awesome art, especially all of those great foil and transparent covers. It gets hated on a lot, but there have been a lot worse Spidey stories out there. BND/OMD is probably one of the worst arcs ever written in any comic, especially Spider-Man. I get that Clone Saga is hated because it turned the status quo upside down in the Spidey comics and mind f#$%ed a lot of people but it doesn't even belong in the same sentence as BND/OMD does for crappiness. That arc made me drop every spidey book until Spider-Island.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Yeah, it's a shame we no longer have books like Tom DeFalco's Spider-Girl around to balance things out, in that book we get to see Peter and MJ as effective parents who age and mature, there not the focus of the title, but they still contribute a lot of wisdom to it, and their daughter is a likeable, relatable and worthy successor to the throne.

DeFalco even wrote a few stories set in a time before Peter retired (The 2008 "Mr and Mrs Spider-Man" series), and those stories were pretty fun and easily proved you could tell stories with Peter as a father who still functioned as Spider-Man and juggled the two responsibilites, alas the strips didnt continue.

Marvel may think going "back to basics" is the way to go, but there hasnt been ONE essential Spider-Man story since 2007's "To Have and To Hold" was nominated for an Eisner and with the way the books are written now, there won't be a "must-read" for a good long time. We've went from the days of Mysterio plotting out the meticulous mental breakdown of Daredevil...to Mysterio playing angry birds to pass the time whilst he and Doc Ock plan world domination. Stuff like that just kills the virisimilitude for me and tells me "you are wasting your time, if we don't take these characters seriously, why should you?"

I talked to my local comic store owner, and he agrees with me...Spidey's story, thanks to books like Spider-Girl, has been effectivly concluded, all Marvel have now to tell are retreads that keep Spidey in a holdiing pattern for the forseeable future, he can't get married, he can't have kids, he must always be a loser...who wants to read about a consistent loser when you can read about a more succesful and accomplished family man in Spider-Girl, or even this particular book?

They already had a younger, "classic" Spider-Man in Ultimate Spider-Man, until they killed him off. Then there's also Marvel Age Spider-Man. So really, there is no need to make the Spider-Man of Amazing Spider-Man a static character.

Batman has a kid now, and if Batman can have a kid, there's no excuse for Spider-Man.

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah exactly, except I think it'll be a while before Pete settles down and gets married (again) I'm thinkin that could potentially be another 2 to 3 years down the road. And I really don't want him to go the Superman Returns illegitimate son route

[ZariusTwo]

The only way you'll see a married Spidey again is if there's a complete creative overhaul at Marvel, and only if the next generation of writers and editors WANT it back. The current regime are convinced Peter being a bachelor is the best thing for the comics. Oh you'll still get little things like what they did in "Spider-Island" with Peter and MJ bonding, but the best you'll see is the two dating again in a few years, marraige is off the cards.

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

Batman has a kid now, and if Batman can have a kid, there's no excuse for Spider-Man.

Dan Slott (ASM's writer) and I argued at length about this on the CBR message boards, apparently Dan thinks it's completly fine for Batman to have a kid because of his prior experiances mentoring Dick, Jason, and Tim (and Terry if you follow the DCAU), him being a guardian/father figure is part of his character, where as Peter's character is primarily all about the everyman lifestyle and youth (I disagree of course, I think Peter was all about GROWTH, which he has none of now)

Originally Posted by Metropoliskid41

That arc made me drop every spidey book until Spider-Island.

I read Spider-Island after I heard they were some strong Peter/MJ moments in it, but the story made little sense to me and came off as a fanfic. Slott treats the book like a cartoon, which clashes in tone to how JMS and other classier writers have handled the title.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

The only way you'll see a married Spidey again is if there's a complete creative overhaul at Marvel, and only if the next generation of writers and editors WANT it back. The current regime are convinced Peter being a bachelor is the best thing for the comics. Oh you'll still get little things like what they did in "Spider-Island" with Peter and MJ bonding, but the best you'll see is the two dating again in a few years, marraige is off the cards.



Dan Slott (ASM's writer) and I argued at length about this on the CBR message boards, apparently Dan thinks it's completly fine for Batman to have a kid because of his prior experiances mentoring Dick, Jason, and Tim (and Terry if you follow the DCAU), him being a guardian/father figure is part of his character, where as Peter's character is primarily all about the everyman lifestyle and youth (I disagree of course, I think Peter was all about GROWTH, which he has none of now)

Huh...These are incredibly interesting viewpoints. Youth and Growth are both huge parts of Peter's character, but to have both for 30+ years takes some creative thinking, doesn't it? Gives me something to think about.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Huh...These are incredibly interesting viewpoints. Youth and Growth are both huge parts of Peter's character, but to have both for 30+ years takes some creative thinking, doesn't it? Gives me something to think about.

It's more simple than it sounds, just don't mention a specific age and you're butter, reference stories that took place 20 years ago as having taken place "a few months ago", stuff like that, it doesnt take a genius to keep characters young, it's practically an edict for any ongoing superhero book, growing them is where the creativity lies. There was a time Spider-Man was blazing a trail that other heroes were afraid to take, Spider-Man challenged the trope of the "comfort zone", now it's doomed to remain in one.

[Metropoliskid41]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I read Spider-Island after I heard they were some strong Peter/MJ moments in it, but the story made little sense to me and came off as a fanfic. Slott treats the book like a cartoon, which clashes in tone to how JMS and other classier writers have handled the title.

I loved the clone saga growing up and Eddie Brock as Venom is one of my favorite all time villains. So to see the return of the Jackal and Kaine plus have the newly righteous Eddie Anti-Venom save the day after clashing with new Venom Flash Thompson it was a very enjoyable story for me. Hate hate hate Carlie, so glad her and Peter are done and hope it stays that way. Really hope that the fan outcry for Peter and MJ to get back together will at least bring them to dating again. I can really see them have Peter & MJ get back together in issue #700.

But the best thing out of Spider Island has to be Kaine as the new Scarlet Spider. Good to see the very talented Ryan Stegman on the pencils of that book. He is awesome. I wish it woulda been Ben Reilly making a come back, but I'll settle for Kaine, can't wait to see what sweet twists this book holds.

[ZariusTwo]

I would settle for Kaine too...had they kept his original powers and look, but instead, they fiddled with it, removed his degeneration and ability to see the future, and gave him Peter's wise-ass attitude, they altered just about everything that made him unique so he could appeal to the angsty Twilight crowd. I want my brooding, morally ambigious, scarred and tortured soul. Not an angrier Peter Parker.

Another reason why the MC2 Universe is the better continuity, it respects and honours the characterisations of the supporting cast and retains them whilst simotaniously shaping and growing the characters.

[Metropoliskid41]

I think me may see Kaine walk the path of vigilante killer yet, I feel like this new found moral code will only last for so long before he snaps and kills someone. Kinda like Fash as Venom did recently.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Dan Slott (ASM's writer) and I argued at length about this on the CBR message boards, apparently Dan thinks it's completly fine for Batman to have a kid because of his prior experiances mentoring Dick, Jason, and Tim (and Terry if you follow the DCAU), him being a guardian/father figure is part of his character, where as Peter's character is primarily all about the everyman lifestyle and youth (I disagree of course, I think Peter was all about GROWTH, which he has none of now)

I don't buy his argument. How many real life fathers had the guardian role down before becoming a parent? A majority wouldn't, that's where the "becoming a father changes you" comes in.

For Marvel, it's not about doing what "fits", it's about them being afraid to change the status quo. I know as a reader who is getting older, it's kind of a bummer to see the character take so many steps back. When Quesada was saying a single Spider-Man makes it easier for readers to relate to, it felt almost like a cheap shot to comic book geeks.

I think they should bring back Spider-Girl. If marketed correctly, it could bring in female readers while giving longtime fans a view of an older Peter Parker.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

I think they should bring back Spider-Girl. If marketed correctly, it could bring in female readers while giving longtime fans a view of an older Peter Parker.

I agree that they should bring it back. I consider it the real Spidey continuity and they let it run a decade anyway despite it having a niche fanbase (also worth noting Quesada is a fan of it), but marketing it correctly means Marvel would be willing to get behind the idea of promoting an older Peter Parker...which, sadly, does not fit into their portfolio for the character.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I agree that they should bring it back. I consider it the real Spidey continuity and they let it run a decade anyway despite it having a niche fanbase (also worth noting Quesada is a fan of it), but marketing it correctly means Marvel would be willing to get behind the idea of promoting an older Peter Parker...which, sadly, does not fit into their portfolio for the character.

I'm a big fan of DC's Elseworlds, so I think the concept of continuity is kind of overrated. These characters have been written so many different ways over the decades, that I think alternate universes branching off from the original makes sense and helps encourage new story ideas.

I used to be a comic book fan that only wanted to read "official" stories based on continuity, before I realized how many good stories I was missing out on (also some not so good ones, but at least they were creative).

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

I used to be a comic book fan that only wanted to read "official" stories based on continuity, before I realized how many good stories I was missing out on (also some not so good ones, but at least they were creative).

Just about sums up my love/hate relationship with Marvel's "What If..." title. There were a lot of times Marvel wouldnt care WHAT that book put out, but on the odd occasion, something would work and the company would be smart enough to be all over it (Spider-Girl). I think the last "What If" I enjoyed was the one that had Jean Grey returned from the dead instead of Collosus...it led to some predictable deaths (What Ifs are notorious for being bloodbaths) but the story was quite solid, plus it made use of an idea that many fans had at the time. I like stories that "go with the natural flow", which is why Spider-Girl worked, it followed the natural flow (Norman kidnaps BABY May), rather than the curve-ball shock that we got in the mainstream books (Norman kidnaps AUNT May?" WTF?)

I don't even get this insistence that Peter Parker remain Spider-Man in the mainstream books...I mean, some of the more essential Spider-Man stories of the last 20 years have all come from other people in the coustume (Miguel, Ben, Mayday, and most recently Miles Morales). Don't get me wrong, Peter's my fave Spidey, but my fave VERSION of Peter is the MC2 version, the one where he grew up and stepped down in order to raise the next generation, that's more "real" and essential to me because that's how life works.

I wish Marvel would repeat what they did with Spider-Girl with another story spun out of "What If", I would love to see a universe spun out of the one where Tony Stark sold out and became a reclusive hermit inside a gigantic Megazord-sized suit of armour.

I love D.C's Elseworld stories also. "The Nail" is my all-time favourate out of that range

[Metropoliskid41]

The DC Elseworlds were fantastic, I really hope to see some more of those work their way back into the New 52 DCU since the multiverse does still exist. A lot of great ones out there that are worthy of being revisited. I think my favorites would have to be:

Kingdome Come
Superman Red Son
Superman Speeding Bullets
and the most recent one where the entire House of El came to Earth. (3 parter in late 2010 early 2011)