Feminist Analyses

[Keroscene]

Torn between wanting to participate, since TMNT has traditionally not been good at female characters and between wanting to avoid the kind of overwrought conversations you see in other fandoms on tumblr and such... you know the kind I mean, the kind which end in bloody acrimony because one side gets needlessly defensive and the other kind gets really nitpicky/starts slinging accusations around. It's not inevitable that every argument about sexism has to end that way, but nearly every argument about sexism within fandoms seems to end that way.

I don't think the current show is particularly sexist (i.e. it's as sexist as everything else is). I do think it's interesting that that there's a perception that this is primarily still a boy's thing and yet fandom does not back that up at all. Oh and if you look back at the old toon and some of the older comics, there's some dreadful sexist crap in there. Don't get me started on Pimiko's costume in Image TMNT or April's fainting or Raph's "ha! women!" comments in that old toon. And Irma was just.... wow.

[CyberCubed]

Wasn't Irma am advocate for women's rights? She also rarely played the role of the fool like Vernon did.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Wasn't Irma am advocate for women's rights? She also rarely played the role of the fool like Vernon did.

I think what is being hinted towards is Irmas obsession about men, and how she litterately zones out when-ever the possibility of a man coming, enters the picture.


Of cause we can go into a whole other debate of if a woman shouldn't be allowed to be like that? what is wrong with that?

I mean, Raj in Big Bang theory can't talk to women unless he is drunk, but no one lifts an eye-brow about that, so why can't Irma dream about men?

But again, it sends a signal that Irma needs a man in her life to feel full-fillment, she isn't "independet."

it's all very convoluted that way.

[demonsweat]

Shredded, I thought your write-up on what feminism is and how it means different things to different people was spot-on. I'm behind you on that.

Welp, I've already given my opinion enough here (too much, I'd say) and have nothing more to add so I'm out. Plus I'm out of turtle pics.

Have fun you crazy kids.

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by Shredded

I think what is being hinted towards is Irmas obsession about men, and how she litterately zones out when-ever the possibility of a man coming, enters the picture.

There's that, but there's more besides. She's incompetent in her job, always getting yelled at by her boss, she appears to have no life of her own beyond thinking about men and living vicariously through April, she faints at least once in the face of a fairly generic amount of terror.

And none of these things would automatically make her a sexist character, except for the fact that she's depicted as being like this because she's a plain, ditzy, clumsy woman. Because she's a woman and she's not pretty, she's only ever there as comic relief.

Also, it's not so much the fact that Irma wants a man that makes her lame, so much as the fact it's the focus of her entire life. She barely talks about anything except weddings and marriages and getting a husband. It's not about finding someone who makes her happy, it's about being married and having a husband because that's what a woman is supposed to do. She wants to be married for the sake of being married. I honestly don't think a character like that would be allowed in a kids cartoon nowadays.

[CyberCubed]

Are you being serious? Irma was just one of those hopeless romantics who wanted someone to sweep her off her feet. She knows she's not exactly pretty but she's not hideous either, she's just average.

And Burne yelled at everyone including Vernon, so it wasn't just Irma or April.

[plastroncafe]

Irma also suffers from the fact that she's one of a very limited number of female characters, so her tired female trope'ness is only amplified.

Ty Lee from Nickelodeon's Avatar: The Last Airbender was boy crazy too, and no where near played out as Irma. Of course that main cast had three strong female protagonists as well as three strong female antagonists.

[Shredded]

Also, it seemed like Irma was less afraid of Danger than Verne.

There was several jokes about Verne being to big a chicken to do any-thing, and Irma ends up having to do it for him.

She is a klutz yeah, and a hopeless romantic, and not a sex god.. hm, I don't mind more female characters like that. It would be nice with some-thing like that to balance out all the women whom quite frankly are over-skilled in every-thing.

And we don't know if she doesn't have a life beyond the news channel and the turtles, she only appears when she has some-thing to do with the story. Exactly because she is not a main character, she's a guest star.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Yes, but you also believe that men and women are completely equal in culture and law and thus the need for feminism is at an end.

So...there's that.

Repeatedly attempting to derail a discussion is not the same thing as actively participating in it.

No, I just think that the word. "Feminism." has now mutated so much that no one knows preciesly what it is, all views it different and thus it's impossible to use in arguments.
It's to easy to miss-use, is being miss-used and gives people excuses to go on holy crusades that actually work more against women then for them.

I believe I shouldn't have to call myself any feminist to argument for equal rights and more interesting female characters. I call it common sense.


Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

If you can't make an argument for more women, without calling it "feminism." re-write the argument, call it.
"There should be more women in this show! cause girls watches this show tw, enjoys this stuff, and they make out 57 percent of the population."
It doesn't need to be harder than that.

Discuss it, but don't call it. "Feministic" ideals.. call them "Ideals a society based on common sense should have."

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Are you being serious? Irma was just one of those hopeless romantics who wanted someone to sweep her off her feet.

Have you watched the show recently? Because you're talking as if you're just remembering some stuff you saw a decade ago and you've romanticized it in your head.

This is who Irma was:

"Return of the Shredder" - Irma chips her nail and has no nail polish. Describes this as an "emergency" and isn't joking.
"Case of the Killer Pizzas" - Sees a monster. Faints. (incidentally, April runs off and leaves her in the sewers, which shows what a great role model she is)
"New York's Shiniest" - Goes on a date with a malfunctioning police robot. That's not a hopeless romantic, that's a desperate woman.
"The Catwoman From Channel 6" - April mentions the name "Splinter" and Irma automatically wants to meet him to see if he's an eligible bachelor.
"Return of the Technodrome" - Irma comments that the Turtles are the most exciting thing in her life. She has met them about once at this stage.
"Attack of the 50ft Irma" - Dieting to attract a man, despite not having an ounce of fat on her. Refuses to eat a pill which will save her life unless she can eat it with ice cream. Oh and the only attendees at her birthday party are April and the Turtles (I think this is like their third meeting).
"The Old Switcheroo" - Irma thinks that "men are beasts," which doesn't sound to me like the attitude of a hopeless romantic.
"The Ninja Sword from Nowhere" - Irma tries to chat up a guy on the other end of the phone who calls the wrong number and gets through to Channel 6 by accident.
"Four Musketurtles" - Attempts to operate a news camera and ends up pointing it the wrong way. Is actually flattered when Shredder kidnaps her.
"Invasion of the Turtle Snatchers" - Gets excited when Donatello tells her he "needs" her (for a favour) despite the fact he is a) not human b) jailbait.
"Green with Jealousy" - Tries chatting up a bunch of random sailors at the docks. Receives gifts from mystery admirers and buys a wedding dress before she's even met any of them.
"Super Bebop and Mighty Rocksteady" - Gets zombified. First thing she wants to know when she wakes up is "where did we go and did we meet any cute guys?"
"The Turtle Terminator" - Lusts after vain and arrogant Channel 6 anchorman. Chases after him when he actually runs screaming from her.

And that's just two seasons. None of this is "romantic." It's desperate, sad and quite insulting actually that there are only two women in the show and one of them behaves like that. There's nothing that indicates that Irma wants a relationship because she wants to be happy, it's all about weddings and marriages. She's so desperate she'll date a goddamn ROBOT.

Also, as you can see, attempting to school me on the 87 cartoon is not a good idea.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Shredded

No, I just think that the word. "Feminism." has now mutated so much that no one knows preciesly what it is, all views it different and thus it's impossible to use in arguments.
It's to easy to miss-use, is being miss-used and gives people excuses to go on holy crusades that actually work more against women then for them.

I believe I shouldn't have to call myself any feminist to argument for equal rights and more interesting female characters. I call it common sense.


Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

If you can't make an argument for more women, without calling it "feminism." re-write the argument, call it.
"There should be more women in this show! cause girls watches this show tw, enjoys this stuff, and they make out 57 percent of the population."
It doesn't need to be harder than that.

Discuss it, but don't call it. "Feministic" ideals.. call them "Ideals a society based on common sense should have."

I can see being against the use of a word because its meaning isn't well defined. No one wants to read something heavily laden with jargon. That's fine.

But when a term has been defined in the course of a discussion, then I see no reason what so ever to avoid using a word. You may think the word feminism is convoluted, but I do not.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are equal, and should be treated as such. And when I use it that's what I mean. I will not be cowed from using a word with eight letters in favor of a phrase that has upwards of thirty. I'm sorry, that's just not going to happen.

Your issue with semantics is not my problem.

[Keroscene]

Originally Posted by Shredded

Yes I think we should talk about it, and fight for some things, but I think we should do so without calling it "Feminism." because feminsim is a word that is mutated, convoluted and miss-used.

I used to think that. Not because I had anything against feminism, but because feminism has gotten such a bad reputation and many people do not actually understand what it is. This includes both men and women. I've heard women say things like "I think men and women should get paid the same, but I'm not some kind of crazy feminist!" Which is ridiculous - if you think men and women should be treated equally, that's all feminism is. Any other idea of what feminism entails is down to misunderstanding.

But if you changed the term from "feminism" to something else, the new term would get slandered too. Increasingly, I think it's more important to tell people what feminism means rather than letting them keep spreading misconceptions. Because at its core feminist discussion is about things that are important to women and dismissing the concept means dismissing the importance of those things.

I agree that some people use the name feminism to talk about a load of rubbish. They present something as a feminist issue when it isn't. If I see one more person calling it "feminist" when they argue that they don't like a TV show character because she is "TOO interesting" and therefore "not relatable" then I'm gonna lose it. Problem is, we don't really learn much about feminism in school, so teenagers get some weird idea about what feminism is on tumblr and when there's something they don't know how to articulate their position on, they'll try to discuss it in terms of feminism.

And I'm not really trying to shut people out of the argument, but some people try to make out that they know a lot more than they do and that's kind of dangerous (e.g. making out you're some kind of academic with specialist knowledge when all you've done is sixth form politics or internet reading). Some people haven't reached the stage yet where you think "I know enough to know that I don't know all that much." But this is partially the nature of arguing about things on the internet - people are generally not that keen to say useful things like "I'm no expert, but the way I see it..." There's a tendency to phrase things in a "THESE ARE THE FACTS" kinda way. Which is understandable, because everyone likes to feel self-righteous every now and then.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Donnie

Nick should do something with Tempestra. That would be awesome.

Ya know, I was never that huge on her, but I could totally see her working well in the new universe... She's got my vote!

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Keroscene

There's that, but there's more besides. She's incompetent in her job, always getting yelled at by her boss, she appears to have no life of her own beyond thinking about men and living vicariously through April, she faints at least once in the face of a fairly generic amount of terror.

And none of these things would automatically make her a sexist character, except for the fact that she's depicted as being like this because she's a plain, ditzy, clumsy woman. Because she's a woman and she's not pretty, she's only ever there as comic relief.

Also, it's not so much the fact that Irma wants a man that makes her lame, so much as the fact it's the focus of her entire life. She barely talks about anything except weddings and marriages and getting a husband. It's not about finding someone who makes her happy, it's about being married and having a husband because that's what a woman is supposed to do. She wants to be married for the sake of being married. I honestly don't think a character like that would be allowed in a kids cartoon nowadays.

I remember Irma went out and shoot the bad guys with her laser rifle.

Anyways, she's fun, a foil of sorts with April's married to the job mindset and her interactions with Don never fails to make me laugh, but yeah, she is problematic.

[Donatello19]

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

This guy right here. He knows.

[The Stryker]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

My niece's favorite character in everything is Batman. She likes characters for the characters or their designs not because they "look like her".

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Little girls don't care about whether or not there are main female characters. Just because the TMNT are boys means they won't appeal to female audiences? There are TONS of TMNT fan girls out there, just check tumblr and you'll see what I mean. This is like saying Mickey Mouse, Elmo or Spongebob wouldn't appeal to girls because they're boys.

Yeah, I'm sure they do. Heck I like the Turtles but I never latched on April/Irma/Oyuki/Ninjara back then as a kid on the reason they are women.

However, the complaints that there are only two recurring female characters is valid. And there is fan complaining in tumblr how out of focus/lack of character development towards April (which I try to be patient to both the show and the fandom). In 1987 it's understandable... the new ones, not.

[Mona_Lisa]

Originally Posted by Donatello19

Maybe they're scared to introduce female characters because of the fans' reactions to Venus. IMO, they should bring back Mona Lisa.

I love you mad, lol
I don't mind that the show has mostly male characters. The females in the show so far are very well written. I would love to see mona lisa come back. I'd love to see this raph with a crush. I wounder if he'd be a good "boyfriend", or find it hard to express his feelings?

[Pterobat]

Like I said in a similar thread about this--it's not a question of whether or not you can like a character of the opposite gender. It's something bigger to discuss how groups are represented in media, and it doesn't matter what one person's individual tastes are.

Also, dear god do I hate Irma. When I was re-watching the old show, I thought I would like her, by finding some fellow geeky-girl solidarity (*fistbump*), but it turned out she was more like an animated Cathy (aack!)

Even her man-hungry ways just seem to be out of desperation, rather than any kind of personal liberation.

My problem with Irma is that all her faults never seem to be treated as individual character flaws, but just an annoying stereotype. She's rarely called out or actually suffers for her flaws, so she's not particularly funny, either.

And yeah, because there are less female characters in the OT, Irma's faults stick out all the more.

Also, when it comes to the word "feminism", a made-up word that covers the same basic ideas just doesn't cut it. Every movement has problems, but we don't have to throw out the name for something useful and valid with a strong history to call ourselves..."equalists" or "egalitarians", or something.

Let the haters hate.

When people ask for better representation, nobody is asking for female characters without flaws--in fact, that's the opposite of equality.