Science of TMNT

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wanted to start up a discussion of the various aspects of turtle-related science and real-life facts about turtles and how they might relate to the TMNT. For example, we already have a thread on mutant turtle anatomy here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19496

And a thread on TMNT cross-species mating speculation here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=50881

And possible effects or workings of the mutagen here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=47327

But we don't have much about ACTUAL turtles and their anatomy, genetics, or behavior. So I thought we could discuss all that (particularly the genetics and how it pertains to mutants) in relation to our fave green team.

For starters, I'd like to note that from all the digging I've done in the last few days (research for a fic) I'v found that turtles have a wide-ranging spectrum of genetic diversity, not the least of which includes varied chromosome counts- anywhere from 22 to 60! Since we know that the TMNT are canonically red-eared sliders (Donatello mentions having once been one in Mirage, and both the 90's movie and 2014 one explicitly show sliders, in spite of Sach's blunder of calling them box turtles....) so we'll start with them.

Sliders have a chromosome count of 50 (some have placed it at 52, but that's debatable) which is HIGHER than a human. (Humans have only 46.) This means that during the mutation, the boys would have actually LOST some of their DNA, a fact that makes their change more interesting from a genetic standpoint. What parts did they lose? Which parts that are common to both would have been altered? These are questions that I'd like to discuss, along with thoughts on differences between sliders and other species that might contribute to their being better-suited to the mutation, or how another species might have turned out. Slash, for instance, is supposed to be a box turtle, and he is obviously QUITE different from the boys. Ditto with Tokka, who as a snapper, most likely has a different chromosome count.

There are other things I'd like to get into as well, such as behavior and diet, but we'll start with this. Have fun!


Oh, and a last note- for anyone who feels the urge to bring up/post the so-called "Scientifically Accurate Ninja Turtles" video, PLEASE DON'T. I'm talking about actual science of real turtles based on facts and research here, not cheap, dumb, half-@$$ed jokes based on crap "pseudo-science" and misinformation that doesn't even qualify as accurate, much less real "science".

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Sliders have a chromosome count of 50 (some have placed it at 52, but that's debatable) which is HIGHER than a human. (Humans have only 46.) This means that during the mutation, the boys would have actually LOST some of their DNA, a fact that makes their change more interesting from a genetic standpoint. What parts did they lose? Which parts that are common to both would have been altered? These are questions that I'd like to discuss, along with thoughts on differences between sliders and other species that might contribute to their being better-suited to the mutation, or how another species might have turned out. Slash, for instance, is supposed to be a box turtle, and he is obviously QUITE different from the boys. Ditto with Tokka, who as a snapper, most likely has a different chromosome count.

I don't think they will lose any chromosomes. Whatever they start out is what they will keep, I think the mutation just changes the expression of them instead of removing anything. Some species can have different chromosome numbers and still be able to produce viable hybrid offspring, and these offspring will often have an 'in-between' number of chromosomes instead. (Say if one parent's species has 31 and the other has 39, often the offspring will have something like 35.)

As for genetic similarity to people, I think reptiles have about 50-60% percent or something? Whatever gets mutated will mainly be the stuff that people share I think, it will be the genetics that allow neuron density and modifies whatever Turtles use to create sounds, allowing them to create speech. It will never allow them to grow hair, since that is a trait exclusive to mammals, and turtles have no genetic analogy. As such, it mutates them to have human like legs and feet, a densely neuron packed brain (size doesn't matter as much as people think it does, it's all in the density) and the ability to maybe eat a larger variety of foods and gives at least some degree of immunity to cold torpor. Also it gives them teeth or the turtley equivalent of them. Other then that, it doesn't seem to change them much, most of the 'turtle' still heavily remains.

That's my late night ramblings for now, maybe I might be able to say more tomorrow night

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Hmm, I was thinking they would either have between the normal number for a turtle (50) and a human (so maybe 48?) or just delete the last four entirely during the mutation process as unneeded. Of course, they could simply be "dormant" as being useless for the new form, but still present without expressing, like turning off a light-switch.

Also, I'd like to bring up something I forgot to mention before. Turtles have NO sex-chromosomes, which is why gender is determined by temperature of the nest. That means that genes that are carried on the sex- chromosomes (such as eye color, for instance) would HAVE to come from the human side, since turtles don't have any equivalent. Most likely, the human-side sex-gene would either replace a pair from the other half, or overwrite genes that would otherwise have been on the X/Y chromosomes. (ie, if turtle eye-color is found elsewhere than the sex-chromosomes, the human ones would probably replace that part.) This might explain why they seem to have human eye colors, rather han the usual ones found in turtles. (I mentioned something about this in the Nick mutagen thread.)

[Mew]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtl...le:Turtle1.jpg
Turtle!

[Ravenshell]

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Ravenshell

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?

I have no idea what you are refering to. Do you mean the "croacking" sounds turtles sometimes make?

cartilagenous split in the lower plastron?

Might have to elaborate, in a family freindly way...

[slashpieturtlemix]

Gah my head hurts with this one lol

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Ravenshell

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?

1: The "churr" is mostly a fanon invention, I think, though the sounds you mentioned are probably what is being referred to. If you want to hear what it sounds like (if you haven't already) there are a few videos on you-tube that show male turtles making them.

2: No, there's no split in the plastron, that's a fanon thing by fans who for whatever reason either think the cloaca is further forward than it is. (It's just inside the base of the tail.) There's no NEED for any split, since the plastron and carapace don't meet up, in order for the tail and legs to emerge or retract.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I have no idea what you are refering to. Do you mean the "croacking" sounds turtles sometimes make?

cartilagenous split in the lower plastron?

Might have to elaborate, on a family freindly way...

I think those were the sounds she meant. As for the split, I think that's just some fan-made invention for fics.

[Candy Kappa]

ah, okay. I'm with ya guys now. Yeah, there are no split in the plastron as Marvel wrote in the plastron, since the clocoa are in the tail hole. Which, if you're curious and got some time on google there are a few artisst that have done "anatomical studies" drawings on how that works on a mutant turtle.

one of the more common reasons turtles croack is when they pull their heads in and air is being released from their lungs. And of course there are other reasons they make croacking and hissing sounds.

[Ravenshell]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

1: The "churr" is mostly a fanon invention, I think, though the sounds you mentioned are probably what is being referred to. If you want to hear what it sounds like (if you haven't already) there are a few videos on you-tube that show male turtles making them.

2: No, there's no split in the plastron, that's a fanon thing by fans who for whatever reason either think the cloaca is further forward than it is. (It's just inside the base of the tail.) There's no NEED for any split, since the plastron and carapace don't meet up, in order for the tail and legs to emerge or retract.

Churring is an actual thing turtles do... apparently turtles are notoriously loud when they go at it. Just nothing I've run across linked "turtles making noise" with "churring," so I had no verification.

I can kind of figure where the plastron split idea came from... anthropomorphosizing a turtle more so they can, er, copulate like a normal human.

See, I did some rather extensive research before I started writing, but when I actually started reading fanfics (not a good source of accurate info, for sure), I ran into so much new info, it just left me in total confusion.
Thanks for the clarifications, y'all!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, the thing with the churring is that it's not generally called that IRL, as far as I know. They DO make the sounds when mating, though I think it's more of a tortoise thing, as many aquatic turtles tend to mate under water. At least RES's usually do, from what I've read.

The best info I've found is on the Wiki general turtle page, the Turtles of the World Index, and a few other sites, as well as Audubon Society guides, and other resource nooks in my own library. (Some of these are a bit dated now, but basic info remains largely the same.) A quick Google of turtle anatomy and reproduction should give plenty of info on the mating aspect and things like phallus shape and size. (Sweet Mother, but those boys would be HUGE!!!)

[Candy Kappa]

Most turtles mate underwater, so starting to make vocal sounds might be a poor planned idea.

American Box Turtles are terrestrial turtles (not tortoises) and they apparently make not only calling noises for mating, but also noises during mating. Spiny Turtles are a semi-aquatic turtle that seems to mate on land, as the males are triggered into mating behavior by the rain, they seem to be quiet when mating.

Tortoises are more the ones making sounds during mating. one of the Galapagos Tortoise nicknames are the Elephant Tortoise due to the loud noise it makes when mating.

not sure why it would be called churring, crickets churr... Mating tortoises range from bellowing grunt noises to... "anime girl moaning".

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yup. Pretty much this. ^

[Candy Kappa]

I just got the dumbest idea in my head.

Since Spinys that are aquatic, mate on land without being vocal about it. Boxys are terrestrial and mate on land and are vocal about it.

what if the Coahuilan, the one American Box Turtle that are aquatic, mate in water, but the male pops it's head up and makes loud wheezing sounds.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

LOL, that's hilarious! Oh, and just thought I'd point out the obvious joke here- you have a turtle-head poking up.....

[Ravenshell]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

A quick Google of turtle anatomy and reproduction should give plenty of info on the mating aspect and things like phallus shape and size. (Sweet Mother, but those boys would be HUGE!!!)

THIS I found out on my own! *lol* The turtle penis is a beautiful and terrible thing to witness... Cannot be unseen.

[Candy Kappa]

A better sight is the same willy taking aim and takes a piss at ya... Luckily for me, it was my partner my current male YBS was aiming at and not me.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I don't think that was piss he was shooting out! From all the anatomy charts I've found, the turtle penis is single-purpose only. Urinary and excretory systems both empty directly into he cloaca. There doesn't appear to be any connection between the penis, and urinary tract at all.

Here are some examples of turtle anatomy- you can see where everything is located and comes out.

http://www.infoturtle.com/wp-content...f-a-turtle.jpg

http://drawnbydawn.com/test/wp-conte...le-lateral.jpg

V This one in particular is very clear.

http://www.deftstudios.com/bioweb/images/bimg43sm.jpg

So's this one.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4ronlu&s=5#.VN5Ut_vna1s

[MsMarvelDuckie]

And speaking of anatomy, there's an interesting point I'd like to discuss regarding respiration. Turtles don't breathe like most other animals do- the lack of a diaphragm and the fact that the shell doesn't expand means there must be an alternative to pushing air in and out of the lungs. Because of this, that job is taken by the muscles of the abdominal cavity, which act as a bellows and basically squish everything together and then spring back out to inflate the lungs. Their lungs are also proportionately larger than most animals of a similar size, and take up a huge amount of space inside the shell. Since the abdominal muscles have no purpose for mobility or flexibility, there is more room for other organs and tissues that are more useful.

This leads to some curious questions- would the TMNT also have the larger lung capacity and a similar method of breathing? Also, would that give them the ability to hold their breath for longer than a human? In a bridgeless TMNT, the shell expansion might not be an issue, but for versions with the bridge intact, that means they have the same lack of expansion problem as normal turtles, so they would almost HAVE to have the same respiratory configuration to breathe. Meaning that they have no diaphragm, and thus have the other muscles doing the work of one.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Okay, time for something new! I ran across some comments in the PD movie section yesterday, that sparked my synapses to firing over-time, and have decided to tackle a question that has been apparently cause for much debate. For that reason, I've actually started working on an essay on the subject, and thought I'd share the first part of it here, as it does relate to the subject of TMNT science.

TMNT: "Human", or Not?

There has been a lot of debate on whether the TMNT view themselves as more like humans or simply as large, unique turtles; are they more human, or more turtle? Which one would/do they consider themselves to be more like, or feel more "connected" to? After a great deal of thought, I have determined that the true answer is actually “neither”. Why? For several reasons, all of which I will get into. The essence of this view is this- though “technically” still turtles, the very nature of their mutation has made normal turtles as alien to them as a lemur is to humans. In other words, they no longer understand or behave or think like a turtle, so why should they consider themselves as being on the same level? They are not. The closest thing to their level of development is humans, but they are different enough to understand that they are NOT human, any more than they are turtles in more than name. In effect, this makes them a species of “hominid chelonian”.

The first factor to consider is, of course, intelligence. They are sentient beings, and like it or not, that brings a degree of self-awareness that is lacking in animals, beyond a very rudimentary level. They think, speak, and learn things no animal could grasp (certain apes and cetacians excluded), and are able to communicate and understand abstract concepts like spirituality, morality, and time. These things are important to remember when trying to determine where they stand on issues of turtle/human views. Donatello, of course, stands out as the “poster boy” for their heightened intellect, being universally understood to be a genius. His intelligence is often treated as exceptionally high even by human standards, so it would stand to reason that he, at least, would have long since discarded the notion of them being “animals”. They are animals only in the same sense that humans are still animals (IE, they are turtles in the same sense that humans are apes), but are aware enough of their own nature to realize that they have “evolved” far beyond mere animals. Far more than merely intelligent animals, they have become sentient beings in their own right, a distinct species of “people”.

There is a panel in the Mirage comics that sums this up perfectly. Donatello has found a red-eared slider in the sewers, and is holding the turtle up and talking to it. He identifies the turtle and says that he was one once, too. The interesting thing is his choice of words- “I was a red slider once, too. But that was a very long time ago.” This hints that he no longer sees himself as one, and that’s understandable, considering that he and his brothers are far more advanced than normal turtles. It implies that he has concluded that they are no longer turtles in the strictest sense, and their original species no longer applies. They are now, for lack of a better term, Trachemys scripta erectus. A new species, distinct from any other, and one that is evolved to a bipedal state, making them far more “human” than turtle!

Some arguments have also been made against the idea of the TMNT wearing clothes, claiming that it would be impractical and unnecessary. Yet there are many instances in the various incarnations of them doing just that, though not for reasons of style or modesty, as most would assume. The occasions when they DO wear clothes, are usually for disguise or for warmth in cold weather- or more often both. They wear clothes when venturing out into areas where people might see them, in an attempt to “blend in” and avoid attracting attention to themselves by their appearance. This normally means covering up nearly all of their bodies, including hands, heads, and feet. In most cases, they wear clothes that are also large enough to hide their weapons if needed. Thus, they wear clothes for reasons of practicality in avoiding detection, not for stylistic reasons(PD film aside).

Also, being reptiles, the clothing would help keep heat in during cold weather, so adding that layer of insulation to prevent loss of heat from their bodies would be of value in staving off the sluggishness and lethargy that they would otherwise be subject to. It’s interesting to note that with their human-like diets, they presumably also have a more human-like metabolism, which would be unaccustomed to the fasting of hibernation, and most likely unable to sustain them through such a state. Thus, falling into torpor would be highly dangerous, making clothes an even bigger necessity when they must venture out in the cold. What seems impractical on first glance, would no doubt actually serve a very vital purpose for scavenging and gaining access to needed supplies.