Scientists and patrons! Write your ideas of how mutagen should act.

[Luckyday]

I have beginning to accept that mutagen in most versions especially in the current cartoon, have no real logic to them or any sense of consistency, but it doesn't always have to be this way.

Think about the movie, Finding Nemo and how the entire stuff had to took a course in oceanography, and in turn, made the movie feels so real and vivid.

So what I asking from you is to take a Grant Morrison approach to mutagen by using bio chemistry and really think to explain of what it can and can not do.

Bonus points if you use scientific terms.

[turtlefanforever]

it should get onto somebodies skin or into their system somehow, And then mutate them.

[Blossombrooks]

Well for starters it'd have to be much slower acting, if it were absorbed by osmosis into the bloodstream it'd take months to affect cell growth and division at a high enough level to encourage full body mutation. That'd make for a dull show tho...

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Blossombrooks

Well for starters it'd have to be much slower acting, if it were absorbed by osmosis into the bloodstream it'd take months to affect cell growth and division at a high enough level to encourage full body mutation. That'd make for a dull show tho...

Well I guess so but I think you can get around that problem by establishing that mutants have been living on Earth for a long time instead of appearing out of the woodwork.

Or you can make process similar to smelting a metal or dissolving but that might kill a person.

[IndigoErth]

Mutagen and it's affects on biological organisms
Indigo E. January 22, 2015

Mutagen is a substance very readily absorbed through the skin of most living creatures. It has an extreme and often harmful reaction within the DNA and RNA structures, causing drastic mutation of the cells and genetics of the subject affected by the substance. If any amount of DNA from another source presently exists on the skin surface of the subject at the site of mutagen contact, such as skin cells from another human or animal, the mutagen will absorb the traces of DNA material from the secondary subject before or upon being absorbed by the skin of the primary subject. This has a likelihood of happening at a rate of 85%.

Reaction and mutation of the DNA and RNA structures, arrangement, and functions typically begins within the first three hours of contact. Visible external symptoms of mutation may however not begin to appear for several weeks or more. Symptoms continue to be expressed over time though the full affect of mutation may take years to reach it's final stages in some subjects.

Subjects in contact with mutagen without DNA from a secondary subject have a 97% mortality rate within three years. It is presently not fully understood why this occurs, but it is theorized that continued mutation of the subject's own DNA structures alone causes increasing damage, eventually harming the subject.

Subjects with DNA present from a secondary subject of the same species have a 75% survival rate with only low levels of DNA and cellular damage in most cases. How adversely the subject is affected appears to depend on the quantities and quality of the DNA from the secondary subject. Higher quality samples appear to play a larger role in diversifying the available DNA structures and is theorized to slow down or limit the rate in which the primary subject's own DNA is affected. Subjects with the inclusion of a same species secondary subject are unlikely to show many physical signs. In most cases traits such a eye color, hair color, and skin tone may alter to a degree. Rarely is the personality or mental state affected.

Subjects in contact with mutagen that have DNA present from a secondary subject of a different species appear to have an increased survival rate of 93%. It is believed that the greater difference in the DNA sample from the secondary subject may further divert the harmful levels of mutation focused on the subject's own DNA. Because the secondary subject's DNA appears to play a larger role when the mutation is simultaneously affecting that of dual species the primary subject may experience a greater amalgamation of DNA from both subjects. Subjects affected by this inter species mutation may show greater visual signs over time than other subjects. Physical changes are usually vaguely notable within one month. Acquisition of physical and mental traits of the secondary subject are usually evident within one to two years. The full rate of mutation and the length of time until the mutation rate diminishes appears to vary by subject, dependent on species involved and age of the primary subject.

Mutation caused by mutagen has been found to have a limited duration. The subject's immune calls are initially overwhelmed, possibly for as many as five years. Eventually however the subject's immune cells act to help gradually rid the subject's body of the mutagen substance, losing as much as 99.2%; Trace amounts are believed to remain in the system. At this time, mutation levels off and the subject is no longer under the extreme stress on their DNA, RNA, and cellular structures caused by mutagen. Physical and mental changes however are permanent and will remain evident for the life of the subject.

[ProactiveMan]

I'm not a scientist, but my thoughts have always been that the original comic take on mutagen makes the most sense. The Turtles and splinter are exposed to the chemical which causes an error in DNA replication leading to abnormal cell growth.

Their mutation causes them to naturally and slowly develop as sentient, intelligent, upright animals, which is not completely believable, but it is easier to swallow than later interpretations of the effects of the mutagen ooze. In this case, the ooze works much like mutagens do in real life, except that the results of the mutations are fanciful.

It's more believable than a chemical DNA combiner, or a chemical DNA combiner that comes from the butts of space worms.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

I'm not a scientist, but my thoughts have always been that the original comic take on mutagen makes the most sense. The Turtles and splinter are exposed to the chemical which causes an error in DNA replication leading to abnormal cell growth.

Their mutation causes them to naturally and slowly develop as sentient, intelligent, upright animals, which is not completely believable, but it is easier to swallow than later interpretations of the effects of the mutagen ooze. In this case, the ooze works much like mutagens do in real life, except that the results of the mutations are fanciful.

It's more believable than a chemical DNA combiner, or a chemical DNA combiner that comes from the butts of space worms.

But real mutations are a single change in dna like a extra digit toe, or a extreme version of cancer with giant tumors. The mirage mutation was hinge on the fact that radioactive chemicals will give you super powers like other superheroes which we now know that concept is equally as ridiculous.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/arti...ience/12073-.4

It is a reason why inhumans backstory makes more sense since their existence in was due to alien messing with their genes in numberous of experiments then the X-men's flimsy idea of evolution with the mutants.

@ IndigoErth
That was about as detail as a SCP Foundation article.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

But real mutations are a single change in dna like a extra digit toe, or a extreme version of cancer with giant tumors. The mirage mutation was hinge on the fact that radioactive chemicals will give you super powers like other superheroes which we now know that concept is equally as ridiculous.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/arti...ience/12073-.4

It is a reason why inhumans backstory makes more sense since their existence in was due to alien messing with their genes in numberous of experiments then the X-men's flimsy idea of evolution with the mutants.

@ IndigoErth
http://media.giphy.com/media/9pWXDLSSfno8U/giphy.gif

They don't really have super powers, they're just humanoid turtles. Like I said, the result of the mutation is fanciful, i.e. it probably couldn't happen in real life, but the way the mutagen works makes more sense to me than combining genes by touching some goo.

I agree that direct manipulation of genes makes more sense that a one-time accidental mutation. I've never thought that X-men mutants made any sense. How the crap does a random mutation give a person the ability to fire lasers out of their eyes?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Recombinant DNA experiments are already being done in various species, with various degrees of success- an extreme (and really "cool") example is using salmon genes to create plum trees with cold-resistant genes to prevent loss from sudden frosts in spring. This has been done since the early 90's, BTW.

The mutagen seems to work as a sort of gene-splicing catalyst, that either instantly or over time takes genes from both the primary subject and any trace DNA it has been in contact with, and splices them into a new, hybrid form containing traits of both. Sort of like throwing the two species into the teleporter that Jeff Goldblum built in "The Fly", which detected two DNA codes, and since it couldn't figure out what to do with the second one, it added it into the main subject- and the results become rather- mixed.... Mutagen seems to do the same thing.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

They don't really have super powers, they're just humanoid turtles. Like I said, the result of the mutation is fanciful, i.e. it probably couldn't happen in real life, but the way the mutagen works makes more sense to me than combining genes by touching some goo.

I agree that direct manipulation of genes makes more sense that a one-time accidental mutation. I've never thought that X-men mutants made any sense. How the crap does a random mutation give a person the ability to fire lasers out of their eyes?

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Recombinant DNA experiments are already being done in various species, with various degrees of success- an extreme (and really "cool") example is using salmon genes to create plum trees with cold-resistant genes to prevent loss from sudden frosts in spring. This has been done since the early 90's, BTW.

The mutagen seems to work as a sort of gene-splicing catalyst, that either instantly or over time takes genes from both the primary subject and any trace DNA it has been in contact with, and splices them into a new, hybrid form containing traits of both. Sort of like throwing the two species into the teleporter that Jeff Goldblum built in "The Fly", which detected two DNA codes, and since it couldn't figure out what to do with the second one, it added it into the main subject- and the results become rather- mixed.... Mutagen seems to do the same thing.

I like both of these. I think it really depends on the purpose of the mutagen chemical in the story.

I prefer to think of the Turtles as simply bipedal, sentient animals, but I also like the idea of other mutants loosing their humanity, so to speak.

It's a nice dichotomy in which the turtles emerge from chaos, to seek out vengeance, or balance, while other mutants are created from control, only to disrupt and bring chaos.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Thanks. I do try to make some sort of logic out of sci-fi when I can. If it fits with something RW, so much the better.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Recombinant DNA experiments are already being done in various species, with various degrees of success- an extreme (and really "cool") example is using salmon genes to create plum trees with cold-resistant genes to prevent loss from sudden frosts in spring. This has been done since the early 90's, BTW.

I would assume that you have to do this at an early developmental stage though. I bet you can't just take a bucket of salmon genes, and a large syringe down to the orchard and hope for the best. You've changed my mind about combined DNA to a point, but I don't buy a change like that occurring in developed organisms.

It's fun to think about this stuff.

[ToTheNines]

In Mirage, I've always liked the idea that the ooze was a byproduct of whatever technology the Utroms used to create their human skin. I believe Tristan Jones came up with it, and it makes sense of why animals become humanoid. Doesn't really go with any other universe unfortunately. The movies I guess, and it could have with 4kids... except they made it a byproduct of the transmat device

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

I would assume that you have to do this at an early developmental stage though. I bet you can't just take a bucket of salmon genes, and a large syringe down to the orchard and hope for the best. You've changed my mind about combined DNA to a point, but I don't buy a change like that occurring in developed organisms.

Well I like IndigoErth's idea with mutation not being permanent but still deadly when mutated. It's almost like a virus and some viruses can integrate into your DNA and changes the sequence in that area by adding the virus genes.

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

It's fun to think about this stuff.

I know right!

Mutagen has much potential as a concept in science fiction by delving into Transhumanism and possibly xenofiction.

Man is above beast and environment, but Man is not always human. We have often assume the highest point in evolution to be human but what if that's not case? With mutants you can have animals that are just as evolve but their way of thinking and perspective goes off in a entirely different direction. Their minds would also be alien in that regard, right?

[Refractive Reflections]

@IndigoErth

Everything seemed fine except the "reaction and mutation" of RNA molecules. RNA molecules are complementary strands on the DNA strands though transcription by RNA polymerase (a biological enzyme). RNA can be easily degraded without radiation:

DNA and RNA are both capable of encoding genetic information, because there are biochemical mechanisms which read the information coded within a DNA or RNA sequence and use it to generate a specified protein. On the other hand, the sequence information of a protein molecule is not used by cells to functionally encode genetic information.

DNA has three primary attributes that allow it to be far better than RNA at encoding genetic information. First, it is normally double-stranded, so that there are a minimum of two copies of the information encoding each gene in every cell. Second, DNA has a much greater stability against breakdown than does RNA, an attribute primarily associated with the absence of the 2'-hydroxyl group within every nucleotide of DNA. Third, highly sophisticated DNA surveillance and repair systems are present which monitor damage to the DNA and repair the sequence when necessary. Analogous systems have not evolved for repairing damaged RNA molecules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA,_RN...ic_information


Just to put some background information on this thread since we are talking about genetics...
To make it easier to understand the central dogma of molecular biology, DNA is the official "blueprint" instructions of a biological cell (which is "secured" within the nucleus of a eukaryotic cell) while RNA is the complementary copy of the instructions after being spliced (or "edited") depending the conditions of the cell (stress, hormonal influences, maintaining homeostasis, etc.) The RNA strands leave the nucleus and go to the cytoplasm of the cell, where the RNA (specifically mRNA) goes to a ribosome (a "factory" which follows the mRNA instructions) which produces an amino acid chain (protein chain). The mRNA chain gives instructions on what order the amino acids should be, which leads to 3D complex protein structures like hair, skin, antibodies (used in the immune system), hormones, enzymes, etc. depending on what cell it is.



But as for the link LuckyDay put up, yeah, any type of random intense mutagen given to biological life would be killed or become severely dysfunctional because a lot of the DNA information is used to simply to maintain itself; in how to make energy from sugar molecules into ATP (the "energy currency" for biological cells), and "housekeeping" (ensure the the structural and functional integrity of the organelles within the cell). ...That's why physicians use intense radiation therapy on tumors to destroy them.


If actual science were to some how explain the TMNT mutagen:

The Fred Wolf mutagen would have to incorporate some form of selective splicing (as MsMarvelDuckie mentioned) through DNA enzymes, or a bizarre viral vector which can somehow specifically obtain the genetic material of the "flaked off" cells the organism last encountered (which is still on it), enzymatically process it within the virus, and then virally inject the new genetic information into the organism for the blended mutation to occur.

As for the Mirage mutagen, that is a bit more difficult of a process since the mutagen would have to be designed to splice at the exact points of an organism to give the biological organism a "sentient" quality, and already have "sentient DNA" included within the mutagen before it was used on a biological organism. (If I'm recalling how the Mirage mutagen works correctly) Since biological life has an enormous amount of genetic diversity in terms of the location of a specific biological process within a chromosome, and to complicate the matter further, how different species have a different total number of chromosomes within a cell, etc.

Both processes are extremely "out there" since it requires a level of genetic engineering which is far beyond our current knowledge, and an improbably (an animal having a human-level of sentient awareness) that makes getting hit by lightning five times much more likely.


The reason human genetic is soooo complicated is that if you took the DNA from one cell and unraveled it, it would be 6 feet long! (If you unraveled all the DNA from all of cells within a human, it would 10 billion miles long (from the Earth to Pluto and back)! What makes it so intriguing and complex is that this code of four (Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, and Cytosine) somehow encodes in producing complex, three-dimensional biological systems (i.e. growth, immune system function, neurological pathways, reproduction and embryonic development, heart and circulatory functioning, conscious awareness, etc.)

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

It's fun to think about this stuff.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

I know right!

Mutagen has much potential as a concept in science fiction by delving into Transhumanism and possibly xenofiction.

Man is above beast and environment, but Man is not always human. We have often assume the highest point in evolution to be human but what if that's not case? With mutants you can have animals that are just as evolve but their way of thinking and perspective goes off in a entirely different direction. Their minds would also be alien in that regard, right?

From a viewpoint of hypothetical, philosophical conversations? Yes.

In terms of detailed genetic processes? ...Not so much.

[IndigoErth]

lol Ah, been outed as not a scientist. Think Donnie just turned to me and went "Well, actually..."

Yeah, got inspired and ran off with some fiction. If you guys are talking realistic, carry on...

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Man is above beast and environment, but Man is not always human. We have often assume the highest point in evolution to be human but what if that's not case?

Still nothing but animals and was thinking yesterday that every damn day there are people out there proving it. Just a highly intelligent, very dominant, violent species... You don't rise to the top of the food chain and critter hierarchy by being nice or being humble. (Granted there are still animals out there that don't give a rats ass and would slaughter or eat us in a heartbeat. lol)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

I would assume that you have to do this at an early developmental stage though. I bet you can't just take a bucket of salmon genes, and a large syringe down to the orchard and hope for the best. You've changed my mind about combined DNA to a point, but I don't buy a change like that occurring in developed organisms.

It's fun to think about this stuff.

Not necessarily. A lot of genetic tinkering is being done via viral strains designed specifically to introduce new genes into an already developed organism. This is where we get gene-therapy, and many other recent advances in genetic engineering. I'm not up on all the latest developments, but that fish-gene example was already being put into agricultural use back in the early 90's when I did some research on the subject for a school paper. In fact, agriculture is one of the primary uses for many of the more bizarre or amazing applications of gene-splicing and cross-species genetics today- the other major one being medicine.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

It's almost like a virus and some viruses can integrate into your DNA and changes the sequence in that area by adding the virus genes.

Mutagen has much potential as a concept in science fiction by delving into Transhumanism and possibly xenofiction.

Man is above beast and environment, but Man is not always human. We have often assume the highest point in evolution to be human but what if that's not case? With mutants you can have animals that are just as evolve but their way of thinking and perspective goes off in a entirely different direction. Their minds would also be alien in that regard, right?

this is exactly the sort of application I was thinking of in my earlier post, though not in such precise terms. Viral introduction of foreign genes into a host body is not new, nor is it confined to man-made tinkering. Nature herself has been doing it from the beginning. Viruses are actually one of the most common means of mutations being introduced into a species, and thus are one of the main causes of evolution over time.

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

Just to put some background information on this thread since we are talking about genetics...

To make it easier to understand the central dogma of molecular biology, DNA is the official "blueprint" instructions of a biological cell (which is "secured" within the nucleus of a eukaryotic cell) while RNA is the complementary copy of the instructions after being spliced (or "edited") depending the conditions of the cell (stress, hormonal influences, maintaining homeostasis, etc.) The RNA strands leave the nucleus and go to the cytoplasm of the cell, where the RNA (specifically mRNA) goes to a ribosome (a "factory" which follows the mRNA instructions) which produces an amino acid chain (protein chain). The mRNA chain gives instructions on what order the amino acids should be, which leads to 3D complex protein structures like hair, skin, antibodies (used in the immune system), hormones, enzymes, etc. depending on what cell it is.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_Enzymes.jpg


But as for the link LuckyDay put up, yeah, any type of random intense mutagen given to biological life would be killed or become severely dysfunctional because a lot of the DNA information is used to simply to maintain itself; in how to make energy from sugar molecules into ATP (the "energy currency" for biological cells), and "housekeeping" (ensure the the structural and functional integrity of the organelles within the cell). ...That's why physicians use intense radiation therapy on tumors to destroy them.

If actual science were to some how explain the TMNT mutagen:

The Fred Wolf mutagen would have to incorporate some form of selective splicing (as MsMarvelDuckie mentioned) through DNA enzymes, or a bizarre viral vector which can somehow specifically obtain the genetic material of the "flaked off" cells the organism last encountered (which is still on it), enzymatically process it within the virus, and then virally inject the new genetic information into the organism for the blended mutation to occur.

As for the Mirage mutagen, that is a bit more difficult of a process since the mutagen would have to be designed to splice at the exact points of an organism to give the biological organism a "sentient" quality, and already have "sentient DNA" included within the mutagen before it was used on a biological organism. (If I'm recalling how the Mirage mutagen works correctly) Since biological life has an enormous amount of genetic diversity in terms of the location of a specific biological process within a chromosome, and to complicate the matter further, how different species have a different total number of chromosomes within a cell, etc.

The reason human genetic is soooo complicated is that if you took the DNA from one cell and unraveled it, it would be 6 feet long! (If you unraveled all the DNA from all of cells within a human, it would 10 billion miles long (from the Earth to Pluto and back)! What makes it so intriguing and complex is that this code of four (Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, and Cytosine) somehow encodes in producing complex, three-dimensional biological systems (i.e. growth, immune system function, neurological pathways, reproduction and embryonic development, heart and circulatory functioning, conscious awareness, etc.)

Wow, that was really in-depth, and most of that matches up with what I had in mind. I'm thinking maybe the mutagen is a highly reactive mix of chemical and radioactive compounds that use a viral vehicle to combine the genomes of a host with any trace DNA it's had contact with, more or less like a combination of gene-therapy and radiation treatments on a massive scale. As for the differences in number of chromosomes, chromosome lengths, and other factors, this may be why some mutations are more stable than others.

The more genes the two species have in common, and the closer the number of chromosomes of the host are to the number from the "foreign" material, the better the chance of a stable mutation, and the more likely it is to survive. Probably why Splinter never double-mutated in the OT series- rats and humans have the same number of chromosomes! This might also explain why Snakeweed went feral and became a mindless monster- his mutation was too unstable due to the magnitude of differences between human and- I'm guessing dandelion?- genomes.

As for Mirage, it's possible the human skins the Utroms were making had enough genetic material to combine human-level intelligence and body type with the natural abilities already present in both the turtles and Splinter in that version, so it still works, as long as it was introduced virally (they never went into exactly what was IN that stuff, so it's quite possible)- viruses are known to spread rapidly in a host body, so it wouldn't take long for any contamination of the genes to become wide-spread and essentially reconfigure the entire host on a cellular level. It would probably hurt like Hell, though.....

[Luckyday]

There something that been bugging me about the last physical contact rule. If mutagen insert foreign genes then does it take the foreign DNA from the sample of the physical contact and thus creating a domino effect with the other billion DNA or does it use it as a reference sheet and just simple rearrange the DNA of the host until it sorta resemble the other subject?

DNA is suppose to be the recipe of the body but where and how do you get the ingredients to make it?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Given the last contact rule, I'd say the former. It seems like that would be more likely. Essentially it would mean the mutagen just starts the process at the point of contact, and spreads out from there. This might explain how some mutations seem to begin at certain body parts and the mutation doesn't occur evenly. (Likely owing to the mutagen spreading more rapidly once it reaches the blood-stream. After that, it seems to take over some parts faster than others.) Timothy might be a good example of this, actually. His mutation seemed to be all over the place, and very uneven at first, with some parts mutating faster than others. If it spreads out from point of contact, then the sample would simply "take over" the surrounding DNA, and then spread from there- like you said, a domino effect. The mutation would take place much faster once it spread into the blood. (Because though RBC's have no nucleus and no DNA, platelets and WBC's do, and the blood could transport any foreign mater like the mutagen-viral vehicle throughout the body very quickly.)

On a related note, some suggestion has been made that the mutagen causes a massive energy release in the cells and that this is why Timothy says "it burns". I'm inclined to think the mutagen may actually be somewhat acidic in nature, or that the "burning" sensation he felt was actually sensory overload of his pain receptors during the process, owing to the radical change in body structure. Simply put, he was overwhelmed by pain, which can often be felt as a severe burning or stabbing feeling in the afflicted parts- fibromyalgia is a prime example of this.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Man is above beast and environment, but Man is not always human. We have often assume the highest point in evolution to be human but what if that's not case? With mutants you can have animals that are just as evolve but their way of thinking and perspective goes off in a entirely different direction. Their minds would also be alien in that regard, right?

This is a tricky bit of wording. It's an unfortunate misnomer that humans are the height of evolution. We may be the current dominant species, from our own perspective, but that's really all. Evolution isn't a directional process, only a reoccurring one. To us it appears to have a goal, but that assumption is pure human fancy.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...1aRandom.shtml

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

SCIENCE

I am impressed. This needs to be a YouTube video.

The recent movie suggested that, by draining, the turtles blood, they could recover the mutagen, and it's recently been suggested that the mutagen could heal.

I can't figure out how either of those ideas Make any sort of sense. Anyone have an explanation? I'm looking at you Refractive Reflections!