Leonardo -

[Scandia]

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/...+age_scale%3A5

I would love to see one with all 4 baby Turtles sleeping next to Splinter. But this one was superb. And the Turtle is very much in character.

[TurtleTrails]

Originally Posted by Scandia

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/...+age_scale%3A5

I would love to see one with all 4 baby Turtles sleeping next to Splinter. But this one was superb. And the Turtle is very much in character.

Thanks for posting Scandia!! It really shows how close Leo and Splinter are. I love it! It's interesting how close Leo and Splinter are and how Splinter calls upon him to be the leader and responsible for his younger siblings welfare. Splinter must know that he placed a heavy burden upon Leo's shoulders. I wonder if Splinter ever feels sorrow or even regret for putting so much responsibility one sibling?

[triplexxx]

Well that doesn't change the fact that it's still every turtle's responsibility to look after the family, and every one of them does a good job at it; they all have to protect each other, and they all do the same job and serve the same purpose in life, which is to look out for each other and for other innocent people. None of the turtles or Splinter have an easy life. They've all made a lot of accomplishments and been loyal to their familiy and friends all their lives; they've all had to work very hard to get where they are.

[Scandia]

I wonder if Splinter ever feels sorrow or even regret for putting so much responsibility one sibling?

Perhaps not so much for it in theory, but in practice sometimes it may have backfired. In the NT Leo has been hit the hardest and has shell shock (and I did not have to see the damaged shell for me to know that Leo was suffering from PTSD). This has caused him to totally disintegrate and go into his shadow- but Splinter does do the right thing and successfully gets Leo to go back to being his usual self. In the movie, Leo does still feel like a failure, even though nothing bad happened to him nor did he do anything he regrets. Though Leo does not seem to be concerned with image or what people think about him, he certainly wants to be perfect and keep being the best.

Leo is hard enough on himself as is. Imagine with the responsibility he has upon his shoulders. I wonder if he thinks at times that Splinter likes or even loves Donatello better, even though Donnie is nowhere near as close to Splinter. After all, while Donatello is a good student and gives Splinter few if any problems, he does not have the kind of responsibility that Leo has. Granted, Leo has not been shown complaining about his responsibility- though I am sure he would dislike it if he got blamed whenever Mikey and Raph caused trouble.

[triplexxx]

But even with his unofficial leadership position, it doesn't make his responsibilities for the family anywhere close to being unique. His main objective is to look out for his brothers, as is Raphael's, Donatello's, and Michaelangelo's main objective as well. Splinter should love every son equally and have equal respect for every son and be willing to hold each of them responsible for their own wrongdoings; if he can't do that, then he should feel regret and be very ashamed of himself.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

But even with his unofficial leadership position, it doesn't make his responsibilities for the family anywhere close to being unique. His main objective is to look out for his brothers, as is Raphael's, Donatello's, and Michaelangelo's main objective as well. Splinter should love every son equally and have equal respect for every son and be willing to hold each of them responsible for their own wrongdoings; if he can't do that, then he should feel regret and be very ashamed of himself.

Splinter does love his sons equally, and he does hold each of them responsible for they're actions. But as leader AND older brother, more is expected out of Leonardo, it's his duty to watch after his younger brothers. And if one screws up on his watch, even if it isn't his fault, he should still step up and take some responsibility, that's what being a good leader is about.

You just hate Splinter.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Splinter does love his sons equally, and he does hold each of them responsible for they're actions. But as leader AND older brother, more is expected out of Leonardo, it's his duty to watch after his younger brothers.

Yes, I know it's Leonardo's duty to look after his brothers. My point is: it's also the duty of Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo as well. And yes, he should take some accountability as leader if it's on his watch, which it isn't always, but if one of them is the one that screws up, they should be held more accountable.
By holding the person who made the mistake the most responsible for that mistake, it enables the person who made the mistake to learn from it, making it less likely to happen in the future.

You just hate Splinter.

Well, to be frank about it; maybe I do in certain ways. But I feel I've got good reason at times. For one thing, his sons continuously risk their lives for innocent people who care nothing for them, each other, and for his vendetta, trying to live honorably just like he taught them, and I don't hear to often from him a "congratulations, you did well, I should give you something or do something for you for all your efforts". It's always, "wake up, get back to training immediately" or "they're just getting into trouble as usual". That's the impression he usually leaves.

Yes at times, the turtles deserve it because they all make mistakes and he has to keep them in shape. But none of them ever did anything "horrible" in their lives; they've never killed any innocent people and they've never gotten any of their family or friends killed. And all the positives all four of them have wrought with their lives far outweigh the negatives they've wrought, so any mistakes they've all made, they've all paid for them and then some. I honestly do think he could show them at least an inch more gratitude, I mean considering nobody else does and that they never blame him for anything that goes wrong even though he makes mistakes too.

[Sonic x 20]

I also love how each of the turtles are not perfect and have some flaws as well. It shows that they still have alot more about them that we don't know about and what we can relate to them with. I love Leo as well and surely, he has the most responsibility out of he and his brothers seeing that he's the oldest and he's the leader. I also do agree that Master Splinter expects alot out of him as well as a leader and an older brother and Leo tries very hard to succeed at what he does too.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by triplexxx

Yes, I know it's Leonardo's duty to look after his brothers. My point is: it's also the duty of Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo as well. And yes, he should take some accountability as leader if it's on his watch, which it isn't always, but if one of them is the one that screws up, they should be held more accountable.
By holding the person who made the mistake the most responsible for that mistake, it enables the person who made the mistake to learn from it, making it less likely to happen in the future.

They all take responsibility for they're individual actions, Leo doesn't automatically get the blame. Yes, the Turtles look out for each other, and older sibligns look out for younger siblings, but I'm saying Leo is the oldest brother(kind of), so that means he's got three younger siblings he's gotta be responsible for. That doesn't mean he should be the only one responsible though, he pointed that out in the new movie.

Well, to be frank about it; maybe I do in certain ways. But I feel I've got good reason at times. For one thing, his sons continuously risk their lives for innocent people who care nothing for them, each other, and for his vendetta, trying to live honorably just like he taught them, and I don't hear to often from him a "congratulations, you did well, I should give you something or do something for you for all your efforts". It's always, "wake up, get back to training immediately" or "they're just getting into trouble as usual". That's the impression he usually leaves.

What, they should get a cookie everytime they do something good. That's not how the world works. Splinter is proud of his sons, he tells them that. But to give them something everytime they do good, other than a "well done" or the occasional hug, would be sending the wrong message, to do good just so you can get something. It would be spoiling them. They do good, he tells them they do good, then they go back to training so the can do more good. He never overworks them, and he respects them just as much as they do him.

But let's not go through this again.

[BigApple3AM]

I think you're confusing leadership with personal responsibility. An example would be Raphael storming out really frustrated. Sure Mikey and Donny SHOULD do something, but they don't. They eat porkrinds. Leo has the responisbility of the group, you have to remember these guys are young. They're all going to look out for each other, but they're not perfect, and that's why you have to have the most responsible in charge and they will follow if they believe that he truly does know what's best for the group.

You're trying to suggest they're all leaders, they're not. They're definitely all individuals, and often times another brother will stick their hide out and do something incredible and beneficial for the group, but when thinks get rough and they're getting lost they have to look to the most mature to take care of things. Besides, not everyone wants to be a leader, I'm definitely sure Mikey and Don would rather do the things they like rather than focus all their time and energy on the family.

Or at least, that's my opinion on the matter.


Oh and regarding Splinter, well the turtles would be directionless without him. Yeah in the early mirage books he mostly wants vengence and it's sort of odd. But in different mediums like the latest movie Splinter's motives aren't really entirely clear, but I think most of all he wants his family to become stronger. Raphael is the one risking his life, Splinter never asked him to do that. He literally rescued the turtles from either becoming a science project at some government research lab or becoming sewer slime or something. He trains them as he was trained in a way, it's all he knows. It makes them strong, and realistically if you're a mutated freak you have to be strong emotionally and physically.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

What, they should get a cookie everytime they do something good. That's not how the world works. Splinter is proud of his sons, he tells them that.

I didn't mean literally "give them something", that was just a figure of speech, sorry for the misleading. And yes, I've heard him say he's proud of them before; I just think maybe he doesn't say it as often as he should, and a hug, as you mentioned, would be a bit more expressive, especially in those couple times they saved practically the whole planet, but I hardly see him do that either, most of the time it's just a hand on the shoulder, which is all right I guess.

An example would be Raphael storming out really frustrated. Sure Mikey and Donny SHOULD do something, but they don't.

Like what? Go out and defend him from the Foot, whom nobody has any clue that they're even there? Sometimes, a few minutes of alone time is therapeutic and for someone's own good.

I think you're confusing leadership with personal responsibility.
You're trying to suggest they're all leaders, they're not.

I'm not confusing anything with anything; personal responsibilty was what I was refering to. I'm simply stating that the responsibility of protecting the family belongs equally to every turtle, always has and always will, regardless of their position on the team, and they all do a good job at it.

I'm definitely sure Mikey and Don would rather do the things they like rather than focus all their time and energy on the family.

Well though their lives are in danger more often than many families, the family doesn't need looking after 24 hours a day and each member of the family is capable of taking care of himself, but whenever they do need looking after, Donatello and Michaelangelo willingly participate, that's what pretty much all of Donatello's work is about, family's/friends' protection and comfort.
Bottom line: ALL 4 TURTLES ARE EQUALLY DEDICATED TO PROTECTING THEIR FAMILY.

And sorry about what I said of splinter, I exaggerated on that one. The vengeance thing was always something I had against him, and it's at least been hinted at in pretty much every TMNT medium, save for the new movie since Shredder's already dead there. You're right, he just wants what's best for the family, but personally if I was him, I'd have just done the job myself.

[Time Mistress]

I haven't had a chance to comment on Leo yet, so here I go.

Although Mike and Raph are my favorite turtles, my own personality is a good Leo/Mike combo (something that happens when you're an only child if the birth order books are to be believed).

I can relate to Leo's drive for perfection, his high standards, and atempts at self dicipline be it getting good grades and being a teacher pet or whatever. Because I'm also like Mike I have a tendancy to fail in that dicipline and be spoiled rotten, but I do keep striving for that perfection and can be quick to judge people who don't meet my high standards sometimes. I know also like Leo what it is to be close to your parents and the burdon you can place on yourself to please them, though they love you just the way you are.

I think Leo can be too often seen sometimes as "Mr. Perfect." They don't realize that Leo can get angry too, part of it comes from the burdon he places on himself, but also from the empathy he needs to develop to be a good leader. If anything, Mike is the best of the 4 at empathy so I think that is a good lesson Mike can teach Leo just as Leo teaches Mike the lesson of dicipline.

One thing I love about the 2k3 Leo is just how well-rounded he is, same with the new movie. Rarely have I liked Leo more than in these new incarnations.

Another interesting thing that strikes me about 2k3 Leo is his obsession with bushido. Of course the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Time Mistress

Another interesting thing that strikes me about 2k3 Leo is his obsession with bushido. Of course the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.

Well, all the turtles have shown a desire to live among humans from time to time. But how exactly does the desire to live among humans relate to the desire to be samurai?

I think the version of Bushido the Splinter taught the turtles to live by is Modern Bushido, which I think any warriors/martial-artists in any field can follow. An excerpt of it from Wikipedia:

The warrior protects and defends because he realizes the value of others. He knows that they are essential to society and, in his gift of service, recognizes and values theirs... take the extra moment in dark parking lots at night to make sure that a woman gets into her car safely before leaving yourself. Daily involvement in acts such as these are as much a part of training as time spent in the dojo, and indeed should be the reason for that time spent training... When faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor and aid, and those who would prey upon them. And in modern society, there is another loathsome breed who would totally ignore their plight!

This being a near perfect description of how the turtles live their lives; they're the men who offer succor and aid to the innocent citizens of NYC and anywhere else they've fought. I don't see how this should be restricted to classifying only samurais.

[Scandia]

the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.

This could be a possibility. And also that by nature and nurture, Leo is a very honorable Turtle. He wants to be heroic. Not just save and protect others like Raph does- that alone is not enough for Leo. He wants to be heroic because he's so lionhearted. Hence his obsession with perfection. I wonder if he seeks a reward or if he just seeks it for its own sake.

And I do not think that Leo is completely unempathetic. He may be disciplined and strict- but he is not cruel in any way.

[Time Mistress]

No, not cruel of course, but empathy in the way that Mike is patient and will listen to Raph when Leo sometimes lets his own standards that he places on Raph get in the way of understanding his brother that's all.

As for the ninja/samurai thing. I was thinking about that lionheart desire like you said. I think Leo dreams of being a hero and wants to perform heroic deeds in the open and be loved by the people for it. A ninja must operate in the shadows and never be allowed to receive that recognition, being a samurai would allow Leo that recognition (well, provided he weren't a mutant turtle to boot) but these are Leo's dreams and fantasies we're talking about.

It just interests me to wonder how Leo views his connection to the outside world since I think he's the Turtle we have the least info on in that matter. Mike relates to it through media, his writing, and his desire to almost be human himself. Raph relates to it by spending the most time above ground in his one man war on crime, always on the fringes of human society but always an outcast from it. Don relates through techology, the most connected to the human world in a way - phone lines, internet, but always hidden by the distance of machines. So how do you think Leo relates? I think he relates in his heroic fantasies and in trying to gain the most balanced perspective on humanity so he can protect his family.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Take Me to Your Leader is an interesting episode of the 1987 TMNT cartoon where the other guys have to fight Shredder, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady without any help from Leonardo, who left the other guys until he finds them again.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Johan Sweden 1982

Take Me to Your Leader is an interesting episode of the 1987 TMNT cartoon where the other guys have to fight Shredder, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady without any help from Leonardo, who left the other guys until he finds them again.

Take me to your Leader is one in the many stories which focuses on Leonardo's tendency to doubt himself and show that when he loses confidence he has an absolute crisis - similar idea to series 4 in 2k3. it also reveals the effect on the group when Leo goes through one of these cycles. Fortunately he normally pulls himself out of it and returns to them a better leader and a stronger person. That's one of the differences between leo and raph: Leo pulls himself out of his depressions whereas Raph needs someone else to pull him out of his.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Scandia

This could be a possibility. And also that by nature and nurture, Leo is a very honorable Turtle. He wants to be heroic. Not just save and protect others like Raph does- that alone is not enough for Leo. He wants to be heroic because he's so lionhearted

I don't see where you're coming from. I mean, saving and protecting others, that is heroic. Being an actual hero is something all the TMNT have already accomplished countless times.

[Scandia]

Maybe heroic is not the right term. While Raph wants to appear badass and scary and tough, Leo wants to be more of a paladin who only thinks and does good.

Perhaps his fantasies do allow him to connect.

Or perhaps he connects through his closeness to Splinter and thus internalizing all the stories about Hamato Yoshi, Tang Shen, and the Foot.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Scandia

Maybe heroic is not the right term. While Raph wants to appear badass and scary and tough, Leo wants to be more of a paladin who only thinks and does good.

Perhaps his fantasies do allow him to connect.

Or perhaps he connects through his closeness to Splinter and thus internalizing all the stories about Hamato Yoshi, Tang Shen, and the Foot.

Well, they all have the desire to do good and be righteous, that's how Splinter raised him and that's how they've acted all their lives. So that's nothing unique.