TMNT and Transformers

[Jo Dawn]

Both stemmed from the 80's... Both were cartoons at some point.

Now, Kevin, if you read this... You know I loved your new adaptation of the TMNT. But my question is this:

Why is it that the TMNT has to be kiddified in a debilitating way, when another so called 'kid's' themed movie is allowed to grow and be adult? Transformers RULED. I would see that every day. It was great and action packed and had adult humor (yet was PG-13, so there were lots of kids there, too).

Mother across America are lauding Transformers, I saw in a newspaper, as good family entertainment.

Why is it that the TMNT have to be so downgraded as a kids movie, when originally it was not (because originally, it was/is an awesome comic)? If it were allowed to grow with it's audience, as Transformers has, while letting kids enjoy it, too (as Transformers did), then a sequel would not even be a doubt.

Sadly, we have wasted our TMNT chance here for a more adult movie (I'd take one for those over the age of 10, actually, at this point). Because if they do that for the next movie, people will complain. So what do we think the malfunction is?

That the studio just dropped the ball?

Such wasted potential.

But seriously. Go see Transformers, even if you didn't see it the first go round. It's awesome.

[Rooish]

Thank you, Jo. Very very good point.

[Shark_Blade]

yes. I don't want to see tmnt be kiddified on the next one

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Jo Dawn

Why is it that the TMNT has to be kiddified in a debilitating way, when another so called 'kid's' themed movie is allowed to grow and be adult?

I think the root of this problem stems from the fact that Mirage seems to be more interested in selling TMNT-themed pajamas than in delivering any adult-aimed products (and by this I primarily mean comic books, but there are plenty of other good options that could be taken if they chose to).

Mirage has nothing with which to prove to investors that there is an adult audience craving an adult movie. At the time the movie deal was made, Vol. 4 and Tales were the only adult products on the market and sales for both sucked. Vol. 4 itself sucked and I don't think there's anyone here, even those who like it, who would want a TMNT movie that looked anything like that. Tales is hit or miss, but even if it were the Best TMNT Comic Ever it's still not even particularly adult. The book self-censors 95% (or more) of its swear words. And thus, there are no TMNT items on the market that represent the kind of movie that you ask for. How can anyone be expected to invest money into something that you have no way of proving there's demand for beyond some weirdos who hang out on a handful of message boards?

Hasbro understands how to satisfy the adult collector along with the kiddies who are also essential to their business plan. They've been doing it with both Star Wars and Transformers for a long, long time. Meanwhile, the TMNT have Playmates who starts dressing the Turtles in goofy outfits the minute they've run out of ideas. There may be a ridiculous 100 different Darth Vader action figures, but Hasbro has never dressed him up in a clown outfit.

The unfortunate truth is that the kick-ass TMNT comic that we all remember in fondness died with issue 11. 11! Yeah, there were some good moments after that - Return to New York, City at War - but we're still left with an extremely small percentage of comics that run a continuing story. (And yes, I'm perfectly aware that there are plenty of other good issues around, too.)

This is why it is so important that Mirage re-establish the TMNT in the comic book market. Tales isn't enough. There needs to be a continuing story (and even though it's likely to be more Vol. 4 when that happens, it really can't be). It all goes back to everything I had to say here.

[Jo Dawn]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Mirage has nothing with which to prove to investors that there is an adult audience craving an adult movie. At the time the movie deal was made, Vol. 4 and Tales were the only adult products on the market and sales for both sucked.

Well, true enough... But what did the Transformers have that allowed them to do this? Make an adult movie for this genre? How did they know people would still dig an old cartoon?

Did I miss something?

Or is it a fresh start for them; in which case, we had our chance and blew it, big time.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Jo Dawn

Well, true enough... But what did the Transformers have that allowed them to do this?

Did I miss something?

Transformers has a HUGE fanbase that is far more organized than ours. Before Dreamwave tanked, they were selling several different Transformers titles and all of them sold like crazy. There is an organized convention (I believe it is all fan-run) every year, BotCon, which has a large turnout and Hasbro always offers exclusive figures for sale at it. And the continuing toy sales. I don't know enough about Transformers to be able to offer more than that, but I do think there's plenty of positive numbers to wave around to investors.

[Jo Dawn]

Ohhh yeah! BotCon! I totally blanked on that. Thanks Rose.

Ugh, we need to be more organized so we can get this, too.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Jo Dawn

Both stemmed from the 80's... Both were cartoons at some point.

Now, Kevin, if you read this... You know I loved your new adaptation of the TMNT. But my question is this:

Why is it that the TMNT has to be kiddified in a debilitating way, when another so called 'kid's' themed movie is allowed to grow and be adult? Transformers RULED. I would see that every day. It was great and action packed and had adult humor (yet was PG-13, so there were lots of kids there, too).

TMNT was a PG film because Warner Bros had specified that it would a PG film
based on the recent popularity of the 2k3 toyline. If it was up to Kevin Monroe, it would have been PG-13 film,
but they were under contract to deliver a PG film aimed at little kids who bought the toys.
The idea that TMNT would have any appeal to an older audience probably
didn't really play much a role when the film was greenlighted several years back.


Transformers was seen by Paramount/DW as a much needed summer tentpole
movie, not a kids movie like Shrek, and for that it needed to be able to appeal much larger audience it, they basically took the core
concept and remarketed it to the masses, a gamble that has apparently paid off.


Two movies with very different expections, also take into account TMNT is an animated
movie, where Transformers is live action.

[odupianist]

The live action vs CGI shouldnt matter too much, at least not to me

[Mecha Cow]

I guess because Transformers has large companies like Hasbro and Takara backing it, while TMNT is still pretty much an indie property, in the sense that it's essentially run by one guy.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Transformers has a HUGE fanbase that is far more organized than ours. Before Dreamwave tanked, they were selling several different Transformers titles and all of them sold like crazy. There is an organized convention (I believe it is all fan-run) every year, BotCon, which has a large turnout and Hasbro always offers exclusive figures for sale at it. And the continuing toy sales. I don't know enough about Transformers to be able to offer more than that, but I do think there's plenty of positive numbers to wave around to investors.

It's weird, I never realised Transformers had a continuing fanbase. I thought it was on in the 80s and this is the first time it has resurfaced, whereas with TMNT we've had various incarnations. Am I wrong on this?

I agree though, I saw the trailer for Transformers and said Awesome! Having a well established and renowned director probably helped its cause also.

Maybe Mirage should take a leaf out of Hasbro's book - for something to be so commercially successful for so many years based on a toy is inspirational and in my opinion TMNT has the potential to be so much more than it is, simply be widening the goggles slightly.

[ToTheNines]

There has always been some sort of Transformers show out there (Beast Wars, and most recently Transformers Armada) and now they have a new show, but yea I too had no idea that they had a real fan base... but it is a no brainer when you think about it.

[The Shelf]

@Jenna
There's a lot of Transformers stuff out there, maybe even more than TMNT. I recommend checking it out at wikipedia if you're interested.

From what I remember, there's the old 80's cartoon. Then there's Beast Wars which is a continuation of the 80's cartoon, but it takes place before it since the transformers get sent back in time at the beginning of the series (which is why they disguise themselves as animals rather than vehicles since mankind is still "apekind" when they get there. Then there's Beast Machines which picks up where Beast Wars left off. Then there are the comic books which have had at least a couple different incarnations if I recall correctly; both Transformers and Beast Wars have had their own comic book lines. Then there's the Armada, Energon, and Cybertron series which apparently form a trilogy called the Unicron trilogy. There's also something called Transformers Generations or something, but I can't remember if that's a cartoon or a comic series. Oh, and we can't forget that old animated movie that came out long ago. Yeah, there's a lot out there.

There are at least a couple Transformers incarnations that are not canon, and I'm sure there are more incarnations that I left out. I'm not huge on Transformers myself, so I don't know much else other than what I picked up by skimming the wiki.

I'd say Transformers is probably bigger than TMNT these days. In fact, my local comic shop carries more Transformers comics than TMNT comics, and that was even before the Transformers movie came out. It is unfortunate.

[Jo Dawn]

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

TMNT was a PG film because Warner Bros had specified that it would a PG film
based on the recent popularity of the 2k3 toyline. If it was up to Kevin Monroe, it would have been PG-13 film,
but they were under contract to deliver a PG film aimed at little kids who bought the toys.
The idea that TMNT would have any appeal to an older audience probably
didn't really play much a role when the film was greenlighted several years back.


Transformers was seen by Paramount/DW as a much needed summer tentpole
movie, not a kids movie like Shrek, and for that it needed to be able to appeal much larger audience it, they basically took the core
concept and remarketed it to the masses, a gamble that has apparently paid off.


Two movies with very different expections, also take into account TMNT is an animated
movie, where Transformers is live action.

Well, I knew all of that already, heh. My question is why.

And CGI vs Live Action doesn't mean one thing. There've been TONS of adult animated movies.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by The Shelf

@Jenna
There's a lot of Transformers stuff out there, maybe even more than TMNT. I recommend checking it out at wikipedia if you're interested.

From what I remember, there's the old 80's cartoon. Then there's Beast Wars which is a continuation of the 80's cartoon, but it takes place before it since the transformers get sent back in time at the beginning of the series (which is why they disguise themselves as animals rather than vehicles since mankind is still "apekind" when they get there. Then there's Beast Machines which picks up where Beast Wars left off. Then there are the comic books which have had at least a couple different incarnations if I recall correctly; both Transformers and Beast Wars have had their own comic book lines. Then there's the Armada, Energon, and Cybertron series which apparently form a trilogy called the Unicron trilogy. There's also something called Transformers Generations or something, but I can't remember if that's a cartoon or a comic series. Oh, and we can't forget that old animated movie that came out long ago. Yeah, there's a lot out there.

There are at least a couple Transformers incarnations that are not canon, and I'm sure there are more incarnations that I left out. I'm not huge on Transformers myself, so I don't know much else other than what I picked up by skimming the wiki.

I'd say Transformers is probably bigger than TMNT these days. In fact, my local comic shop carries more Transformers comics than TMNT comics, and that was even before the Transformers movie came out. It is unfortunate.

coooool. Thanks for the info. Maybe it's a UK thing, but I've not seen anything Transformer related since 1985ish. I was a good bit younger when I was into Transformers. Still in primary school. I used to play Transformers with the boys . My favourite was Bumblebee. But it's weird, I just forgot about it. I never stopped loving TMNT. I am def going to see the film.

[Neolardo]

I think it's in large part due to the original 1986 movie. I think after that "the cat was out of the bag" so to speak. It probably just made more sense to keep going down that road than to try and go back to the more kiddy-friendly pre-movie format.

Also, while there have been many different Transformers series over the years on up to the present, Hasbro has been releasing the original figures from the old 80's line through TRU so even old fans like myself who don't care for any of the new stuff were still keeping the franchise alive and well prior to the movie.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Anyone remembered the old Transformers animated movie? I remember watching it from a local channel...

When Optimus Prime and Megatron had this last fight, in which the former got killed and Megatron turned into Galvatron? I swear, my fangirl heart broke into a million pieces.

It didn't help both sides literally turn into scraps when this giant planet-sized Transformer is eating them.

Oh, and Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime sucks. >.<

[Spitfire]

If TMNT was made like Transformers it would be 2 hours long and over half of it would be about some annoying kid who makes jokes that aren't funny flirting with some chick he has no chance with.

The turtles themselves would be nothing more then a subplot, have no character development, and all the fight scenes would have the camera shaking the entire time so you have no idea what's going on.

Want to know why Transformers is PG-13? Because Steven Spielberg was a producer. That guy can do whatever the hell he wants pretty much. If TMNT had someone like that working on it then TMNT could be whatever it wanted as well. But for some reason our turtles always get stuck with a first timer or someone who only has a few movies on their record*And ones that bombed at that* so Hollywood will have most of the say.

No offense to the TMNT directors over the years believe me I feel you guys did a fine job but with no rep you get no where in Hollywood.

[Scandia]

I honestly liked the Turtles movie better than the Transformers ones. And keep in mind that I enjoyed watching the cartoons when I was a kid/teen for BOTH of them.

When I exited the TMNT movie, I wanted to go watch it again.

The Transformers movie was worth watching at the theatre and paying to do so, but that's about it. Not a bad movie- but not the best movie I have watched this season.

The TMNT movie made me become obsessed with TMNT. The obsession the first time around was not THAT big- possibly because I was MAJORLY obsessed with something else at the same time.

You bet I won't be getting obsessed with Transformers anytime soon. Granted, my interest in it was never all that big- but a better movie could have gotten me more interested this time around.

The TMNT movie has made me get into the comic. And the 2k3 series. And rewatch the movies. And rewatch the old toon. I have not purchased a single piece of Transformers merchandise or watched anything else from it.

Overall, in my book, the Turtles pwned the Transformers big time.

[Mr. Snackpants]

I think it's because of all the previous TMNT movies. They were aimed at kids, it was goofy. People probably wouldn't like the change, especially those who grew up with the 80s toon.