Peter Laird on IDW TMNT

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by FearlessLeader

I was very off put when he first said that myself and then I realized his opinion doesn't change what Turtles means to me and I shouldn't really dwell on it.

I know this is kind of a pipe dream for any fandom, but I kind of wish we could shed this "let's dwell on and over analyze any negative thing we can find". We have so much good stuff happening right now with Turtles with more and more showing up everyday.

We should be happy as a collective unit right now, at least in my opinion.

I totally agree. Who cares if Peter doesn't want to involve himself with the TMNT? It's his loss!

[Andrew NDB]

A little more from Peter on IDW:

"Not really knowing anything about this new "Krang", I won't venture an opinion.

[on April naming the Turtles] This is one of the things which I think gives this new comic series a significantly different "feel" than the original TMNT stories that Kevin and I created. There seems to be more trying to make things seem -- I don't know -- "realistic"? Like it's easier to buy a human female naming turtles after Renaissance artists than a mutated rat. There seems to be less acceptance of some of the ofttimes whimsical nature of what Kevin and I did… and I find the result somewhat lacking.

[about the reincarnation angle] It does nothing for me, and in fact seems emblematic of a trend -- to make things bigger and more "meaningful" than they really need to be -- that I see in modern comics, especially in new "takes" on established characters. I was just reading something online recently about someone remaking the origin of Spider-Man, I think, so that instead of just being a kid who is transformed by the bite of a radioactive spider, he's actually the latest incarnation of some spider deity or something (sorry if I am messing this up -- I just quickly read the piece and don't remember where to find it again). I think it kind of started with Alan Moore when he reinvented "Swamp Thing" and turned him into a "plant elemental". That worked pretty well, but the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

I also feel that it diminishes the characters of the Turtles and Splinter… like they can't be who they ARE, they have to be like someone else WAS.

And finally, one of the things about the way we created the Turtles that I always liked was the random, accidental nature of it. For some reason, I find that appealing (possibly because the origin of the Turtles sort of mirrors the creation of that first TMNT comic itself!)… and it's why whenever a new project would come up and someone would suggest redoing the origin of the Turtles and almost inevitably start with "See, there's this firm that's working on genetic engineering, and they take these turtles and -- ", I would shoot that down right away. It always felt so boring to me, so hackneyed. So obvious.

Now, I say all of the above with this caveat: I have not read all of the IDW TMNT comics. I think someday I will, in collected form, so that I can read a bunch of them all at once, conveniently. Maybe after I've done that, I will change my mind. Not likely, but possible. -- PL"

[Oculus Orbus]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

[about the reincarnation angle] It does nothing for me, and in fact seems emblematic of a trend -- to make things bigger and more "meaningful" than they really need to be -- that I see in modern comics, especially in new "takes" on established characters. I was just reading something online recently about someone remaking the origin of Spider-Man, I think, so that instead of just being a kid who is transformed by the bite of a radioactive spider, he's actually the latest incarnation of some spider deity or something (sorry if I am messing this up -- I just quickly read the piece and don't remember where to find it again). I think it kind of started with Alan Moore when he reinvented "Swamp Thing" and turned him into a "plant elemental". That worked pretty well, but the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

I also feel that it diminishes the characters of the Turtles and Splinter… like they can't be who they ARE, they have to be like someone else WAS.

And finally, one of the things about the way we created the Turtles that I always liked was the random, accidental nature of it. For some reason, I find that appealing (possibly because the origin of the Turtles sort of mirrors the creation of that first TMNT comic itself!)… and it's why whenever a new project would come up and someone would suggest redoing the origin of the Turtles and almost inevitably start with "See, there's this firm that's working on genetic engineering, and they take these turtles and -- ", I would shoot that down right away. It always felt so boring to me, so hackneyed. So obvious.

Wow, now that's exactly how I feel about the whole reincarnation thing. It has changed the Turtles so deeply, they're no longer an accident, but something that was "meant to be". It doesn't feel right to me, but I guess this new Turtles really ARE different to the ones we used to know.

I'd like to say that I'm glad Peter is sharing his opinions on the IDW series, because wether you agree with him or not, I'll always be curious to know what he thinks about the new routes the Turtles are taking.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Oculus Orbus

but I guess this new Turtles really ARE different to the ones we used to know.

Was that ever up for debate?

[Hermano Dyvas]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

[about the reincarnation angle] the problem is most writers aren't as brilliant as Alan Moore often is.

Did he just serve Tom Waltz? Straightforward guy our Pete.

It's obvious Peter has issues with the major differences between Mirage's and IDW's turtles, I wouldn't have it any other way. It means he has a lot of love for what he created and his vision of the turtles.

As a fan however I welcome a fresh new breeze in the franchise. I am happy IDW is turning it into their own thing instead of just copying mirage and I look forward to their universe expanding further.

[1984TMNT]

I think Peter's points are totally valid, and to a degree I kind of agree. However, as far as Peter's opinions go - for IDW's take on the Turtles, they are in a kind of "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation. If they didn't change things "just for the sake of changing them", then Peter would be criticizing the fact that they haven't broken any new ground and are just copying what has come before.

I'm not a huge fan of the re-incarnation thing, but I'll deal with it. It's not going to ruin the series for me, so I'm not too worried about it. As long as the characters come off as true to themselves, I'm down to enjoy the new stories that will come out of this universe.

I lived through Shredder being a Utrom (fundamentally changing his character), which I thought was just awful.....and THAT came from/was approved by Peter - so having the TMNT be reincarnated isn't that big a deal to me.

[plastroncafe]

That doesn't sound like love to me, it sounds like sour grapes.

[Oculus Orbus]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Was that ever up for debate?

No it wasn't, I was just refering to the major changes done in the roots of the characters, that will probably have a huge impact in their development. They could have had another type of origin (wich didn't include reincarnation), and still be very different to the Mirage Turtles. I'm fine with most of the changes we've seen so far, but the origin is such a big thing for me. I'm not even saying that I wanted them to repeat the same old story, I just don't like them being humans reincarnated, that's all.

[Samhain]

I think some people are forgetting that Peter was ASKED for his opinion. He didn't come out of no where putting IDW down. He was asked his opinion and he gave it. Thats's fair.

[CyberCubed]

I agree that its better to see something new.

If IDW stuck too closely people would just view it as a rehash of the Mirage material. They can't even slightly mix it up because the 4kids series already did that with many Mirage stories.

[Andrew NDB]

Peter raises valid concerns and points, but ultimately I agree that it's great that IDW is trying something new.

The reincarnation thing I'm actually really on board with.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

.

The reincarnation thing I'm actually really on board with.

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

[marcelangelo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

yeah, I also have a feeling there's still a twist somehow in the reincarnation thing for the turtles...in one of tom waltz' recent interviews he said a sentence about this that read to me like the door is still open to swing in both directions here...

[Oculus Orbus]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

I could see a great depression arc for Splinter if he realizes they are not his true sons, but then accepts them later on as his new family. It could be brilliant if done right.

That would be fantastic. Really, if that happened, I'd go nuts for IDW TMNT.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by FearlessLeader

I'm sorry that he didn't include characters you think should have been included and I'm sorry that as Peter got more busy with the 2007 movie and other aspects of the franchise towards the end of the cartoon run that he probably wasn't controlling the content of the show AS heavily (hence Cody Jones and pizza humor). I'm sorry that you don't like the way he ran things, but he doesn't anymore so you don't have to worry.

I think you're a little confused about my stance on things. I never really demanded any of the OT characters to come back. I am certain that a lot of OT fans wouldn't give the new show a chance because they didn't, but that's not how I personally felt. Personally, I took a while to get into it, but was hooked when I did. Second, I don't remember any pizza humor in the show, and my point was that, had there been any, it quite possibly would not have been as annoying as Mikey's new obsession with being Battle Nexus Champion. With Cody Jones, and Fast Forward in general, again I'm not really stating my own opinion so much as what's become a very popular one; I never had much of a problem with that season, and liked it much better than the Lost Season, but the general fan backlash is undeniable. My overall point is that, while I agree the 4Kids show is better than the OT, that quality doesn't really have much to do with its disregard for a lot of OT elements. It definitely does have to do with its incorporation of a lot of Mirage Comic elements, but only so long as the show continued to incorporate them. I loved the show and didn't hold its lack of OT stuff against it, but I can imagine a version I loved more that included some of the OT stuff and didn't include some of the new stuff it added.

As for the 2007 movie, my personal opinion there is that it wasn't worth Peter Laird putting the 4Kids show on the backburner. Don't get me wrong; I liked it, but it didn't leave much of an impression on me with its one-off plot and its family-friction subplot. It just felt like an episode of a TMNT TV show to me, and for me the thrill of the shows is the cumulative effect of their episodes.

Originally Posted by FearlessLeader

I think it would benefit you to be able to walk a few steps in someone else's shoes before frankly you make such harsh judgements about someone you don't even know. Unless you were at Mirage Studios daily during the 2000's you really don't know what Pete's life was like nor what stresses he was putting up with, nor how much heart he put into the projects he choose.

Oh; I have tried to put myself in his shoes, although you're probably right that nobody is really able to, and I made a pretty sympathetic post here. Still, just as Peter Laird wishes he could change history so he wouldn't have created the Turtles, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to have his life if it made me as unhappy as he seems to be. Even with all of that money, I don't think I'd want to be that bitter. He probably does have his reasons, and I can speculate about them, but I don't know if I want to think in any great depth about them; lest I start overanalyzing everything and disliking everything.

Originally Posted by Master Splinter

-ms

No; it's many people's opinion, and as I made clear above, many people's more severely than mine. I actually got into an arguement with my brother when we dug up an old VHS of "The Big Blow-Out" that we had in a bin, and he referred to it as "The good series." (I did not add that emphasis.) To this date, I think TMNT nostalgia still surrounds the OT more than it does the 4Kids show, and a big part of that is that the 4Kids show was handled in a way that alienated OT fans, almost deliberately. If it hadn't, the fandom would have crossed over, and the franchise would be huge. I think maybe even the Mirage Comics inherrited more fans from the OT, possibly because they had the first movie to use as a bridge.

I know it's easy for some of you to say that the 4Kids show was good on its own merit, and who cares what fanboys say, but for me, it's incredibly annoying to keep hearing a show I like badmouthed because it was allegedly TMNT in name only, and the real problem is that the people doing the badmouthing don't even have what I'd consider bad taste in general, and don't even know they're prejudiced. Had the 4Kids show just thrown the fanboys a bone; provided some icebreaker to introduce them, I'm quite certain a lot of the old fans would come to love it. It would be a treasured part of TMNT mythology to reference in later discussions in adaptations. Yet I think they (maybe Peter, maybe somebody else, but somebody) got too caught up in the notion that "good" = "not like the OT," and the unpopular ideas they had later gave lie to that.

[Jester]

You seriously think the 4Kids series intentionally alienated fans of the Fred Wolf series? Reading the facebook wall for the Nick series will tell you that the biggest reason fans of the FW series didn't flock in droves to the 4Kids series was more because, "This isn't the Turtles I remember, and because of that they automatically suck!" 4Kids threw many "bones" to FW fans. Secret Origins: Part 3 had several references to the OT. Samurai Tourists gave us Gen dressed as Rocksteady and a anthropomorphic warthog. The first episode of >> had a Bebop look-a-like. I think the only thing that was a blatant possible alienation of FW fans was surprisingly the one that was the biggest use of them, Turtles Forever.

Sure Peter didn't want this show to be as goofy for goofiness sake as the FW series was, but it never made an active attempt to alienate FW fanboys. If anything they alienated it because it "RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!!"

[Samhain]

At first when Laird made that comment, it kinda bummed me out. I didn't understand. Then, I read this interview with Kevin Eastman. He basically described how almost overnight they went from 2 dudes making a comic to having to manage a multi-million dollar empire. You see, Laird wanted to DRAW, and make his comics. But, with the turtles having blowing up the way they did he couldn't do it. It's a difficult situation and I can certainly understand why Peter feels the way he does nowadays.

I suggest you read this interview, it might change the way you judge people who have been through something like this.

http://www.tcj.com/the-kevin-eastman-interview-part-i/

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Especially since there's probably going to be a plot twist with the reincarnation thing down the road. Its quite possible the Turtles may not be Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all, and they simply "fine tuned what was learned" via the samples in the mutagen.

Quite possible. It was "super solider mutagen" after all.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Quite possible. It was "super solider mutagen" after all.

Back when we were in the first couple of issues, speculation on how the turtles learned ninjitsu so quickly did often surround the concept of the super soldier mutagen. After all, isn't it kind of weird if the turtles were exposed to it and DIDN'T see any improvement in fighting due to it? Not very "super soldiery," if you ask me. I still find that a more satisfying explanation than the reincarnation bit. With Splinter it makes sense, since his mind has been reawakened by the serum. But the turtles just "sensing" something from their past lives just doesn't seem to quite fit with this universe where there seems to be a logical explanation for most everything.

[Leo656]

Sometimes I wonder if it might have been better off if Laird had sold it off to someone else years ago, honestly. It's not that any of his feelings are invalid, or that he has no right to feel burnt out, overworked, unappreciated, etc. But I think a big part of it is that deep down, Pete was never as invested in this whole thing as we are, and there's lots of reasons for that, many of which make complete sense.

BUT I sometimes think about Siegel and Shuster having to sell Superman to DC all those years ago, and it was a totally different situation of course, and they were treated very badly but the point is, it COULD be argued that the character of Superman was a lot better off once it was removed from, and allowed to grow beyond, the creators' original vision. Many of the things we take for granted as "fundamentally" Superman were not created by the people who created him, even the character's personality and behavior are very different than the original intent. So the creators lost their pure, undiluted vision... and in return the world was given the biggest cultural icon of the 20th Century. If Siegel and Shuster had written/drawn every issue of Action Comics and Superman, its very possible the character would never have survived for as long as it has. I'll never EVER say DC was right to treat Siegel and Shuster the way they did, BUT Siegel and Shuster didn't make Superman a legend, DC did that by taking their foundation and building a ton of stuff on top of it. Some was good, some was less so, but a lot of it has more to do with how we think of the character now than what was originally laid out.

I want TMNT to become that kind of franchise, where it might not always be "hot" but it's always "there", where there's always comics to read and toys to buy, and no long stretches of inactivity where people forget it existed and why it was cool, and we all sit around hoping for the next "boom". And honestly, I think we're closer to that happening now than before. With more potential for more TMNT product out there, and less chance of editorial guidance/interference from the original creator(s), it's actually kind of exciting to me to see how some other people are going to add to the mythos. Yeah, there's the potential for a deluge of crap at some point in the future, as happens to everything popular once the creators go hands-off and it's all about the money, but is it really going to be that different from what we've always had and been used to? Good, bad, whatever, if Laird isn't interested in doing TMNT anymore, I'm honestly glad he'd rather let someone who is interested take over. Before he sold it off I was honestly afraid he would just shut the whole thing down; seeing how unhappy he's apparently been at various times makes me wish he sold it off sooner.

Who knows, in another 30 years we might all look back on how IDW, or Nick, or whoever does the next take on TMNT, "finally got it right" with their version just like many people said about John Byrne's take on Superman, 50 years after he was created... and his version was as far from the original as any other take. You simply never know. The TMNT "going corporate" might end up being he best thing for them from a longevity and relevance perspective.