Peter Laird on IDW TMNT

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Plasticplayhouse

na, i do believe that pete still has love for the turtles. he's just a purist, and thats ok.

Meh; with the exception of times when an original product is arguably better than the one that bastardized it (and "arguably" means "with more to argue that the original is better than it simply being the original"), I can't think of any time that being a purist is a good thing. The original Batman comics might have been good, but they weren't the be-all-and-end-all of the series. Originally, their character Mr. Zero was a fairly one-note villain; then the Adam West show renamed him Mr. Freeze and expanded him, and finally Batman: The Animated Series gave him an immense amount of development with a sympathetic motive, and it was so good that it stuck in the comics. Harley Quinn was also so interesting (in part because she gave more dimension to the Joker) that she was added to the comics. Had the comics writers been purists, they could have blocked all of that neat stuff.

Also, there's the chance of an original work starting good and then going to crap. When I first saw the Teen Titans animated series, I thought it was kind of stupid and annoying, and it bastardized some of the stories Marv Wolfman and George Perez did pretty badly (although their wasn't the original take on Teen Titans, either, but it's the one the show is most based on), but it grew on me, and then I got a chance to see what the actual Teen Titans comics had become since the Wolfman and Perez era--long story short, they were intolerable. Annoying, emo, soap opera-ish, senselessly-macabre, and worst of all, making liberal use of the "Which Titan will we kill this month" gimmick to sell comics. At this point, I'm not even going to pretend I don't like the cartoon better.

That said, even when I dislike the direction a new edition/version takes as a whole, doesn't mean that I want to discount every single thing in it. I mentioned I hated the overall direction Teen Titans comics were going, but I loved Ms. Martian, and I'm now very glad she is in the Young Justice show. When good things are created, they should be retained for other adaptations, and when bad things are created, it's worth seeing if they can be revised and improved in other adaptations. Purists tend to be blind to all that.

[Jester]

In that case, Laird isn't a complete purist, because Hun and the Battle Nexus (and maybe other things) make their way into Mirage cannon.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Meh; with the exception of times when an original product is arguably better than the one that bastardized it (and "arguably" means "with more to argue that the original is better than it simply being the original"), I can't think of any time that being a purist is a good thing.

That said, even when I dislike the direction a new edition/version takes as a whole, doesn't mean that I want to discount every single thing in it. I mentioned I hated the overall direction Teen Titans comics were going, but I loved Ms. Martian, and I'm now very glad she is in the Young Justice show. When good things are created, they should be retained for other adaptations, and when bad things are created, it's worth seeing if they can be revised and improved in other adaptations. Purists tend to be blind to all that.

You seem to have trouble putting a difference between fans and the creator of the original version himself.

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

[Donnie]

Originally Posted by Hermano Dyvas

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

Agreed 100%. JRR Tolkien would be quite critical with the LotR movie trilogy. But I don't care, I still love them! Even though the example isn't exactly the same since the trilogy came out after his death, the fact remains that the creator should have the right to separate from his work and be overly critical about it.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Hermano Dyvas

As the creator of the original universe I think Pete has a right to be a purist about it.

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it. Stan Lee enjoys the (ridiculously altered) Japanese Spider-Man show. Hideo Kojima considers the unofficial, America-only game Snake's Revenge a good entry into the series; even if it's non-canon. Creators have a right to get hot and bothered about others meddling in their intellectual property, but their peers have the right to state that this is an unpleasant mindset.

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series. Now, I know Peter Laird didn't exactly have the ability to do that, as the comics were a cocreation of him and Eastman, and from what I understand Eastman was more open to the Playmates deal than Laird was, but that it wasn't a one-man show from the very beginning should have been enough for Peter not to act like he was the only one whose input into the turtles mattered, even at the time he was the sole owner.

[Noah13]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger.

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

[Plasticplayhouse]

Originally Posted by Noah13

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

Now that's funny! I was kinda thinking the same thing.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger.

Originally Posted by Noah13

Are you saying we (non-americans) don't have this right?

Actually I was watching this Britisch cop show the other day and turned out there's an actual law against it in Britain. If you do it in public at least.


But back to our subject, just because he can doesn't mean he should, maybe so.

I for one respect the fact that he voices his opinion, even if it clashes with everybody else's. All his fan's going "You shouldn't pull the plug on it if you had a time machine." and he just goes "Yeah, there's a big chance I'd pull the plug on it.". It takes character to do that.

I don't think he should fake enthusiasm about IDW or other mediums if that's not what he feels.

[Matches Malone]

Originally Posted by Hermano Dyvas

Actually I was watching this Britisch cop show the other day and turned out there's an actual law against it in Britain. If you do it in public at least.


But back to our subject, just because he can doesn't mean he should, maybe so.

I for one respect the fact that he voices his opinion, even if it clashes with everybody else's. All his fan's going "You shouldn't pull the plug on it if you had a time machine." and he just goes "Yeah, there's a big chance I'd pull the plug on it.". It takes character to do that.

I don't think he should fake enthusiasm about IDW or other mediums if that's not what he feels.

I also think some people are overlooking or downplaying the context of his responses. He never just says, "yeah, I wish I never invented the turtles." He goes on to weigh the pros and cons and that even though he ultimately would (if not for his daughter), he would certainly hesitate before doing so. People only use his final decision (which is simply hypothetical) as a means to judge him without noting the context at all. If people actually read his entire responses, he doesn't sound like a bitter old man. Someone who has been worn out by the franchise? Sure. But he also gives plenty of evidence that he's doing his best to be honest without sounding like a bitter old man.

[Fugitoid Jones]

I just think it's kinda funny how Pete doesn't like the artwork for the IDW series, but this is the same guy that had Jim Lawson draw nearly all his stuff. While I admit that Dan Duncan's art wouldn't be my ideal choice for a TMNT comic, I think it's a hell of a lot better to look at than Lawson's squibbles (at least not early Lawson, early Lawson was alright).

[FearlessLeader]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it. Stan Lee enjoys the (ridiculously altered) Japanese Spider-Man show. Hideo Kojima considers the unofficial, America-only game Snake's Revenge a good entry into the series; even if it's non-canon. Creators have a right to get hot and bothered about others meddling in their intellectual property, but their peers have the right to state that this is an unpleasant mindset.

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series. Now, I know Peter Laird didn't exactly have the ability to do that, as the comics were a cocreation of him and Eastman, and from what I understand Eastman was more open to the Playmates deal than Laird was, but that it wasn't a one-man show from the very beginning should have been enough for Peter not to act like he was the only one whose input into the turtles mattered, even at the time he was the sole owner.

Peter is a human being and isn't perfect. Has every choice and word that he has ever said been perfect... no. You seem to expect him to fit into this nice, tidy little idea of how YOU think he should act. That's kind of silly.

Once again I will state if what Pete does and says seems to fluster you to the level where you continuously write these long drawn out rants maybe you should stop reading his opinions and move on to something that makes you a happier person.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

If you're going to be that finicky about the direction others might take your series, you should draw the line a long time before selling the rights to a toy company. You should resolve to remain the only person who is writing the stories for your series.

Jesus Christ dude, just look at Volume 1 of Mirage. Pete let a lot of people do a lot of things with the turtles over the years.

[Jester]

Exactly. He just knew what he wanted from the Turtles he was working on, be it volume 4 or the 4kids series.

[Leo656]

I'unno, I think the dude raises a lot of good points. A few people do have a less than sparkling view of Laird, but to be fair, he kinda said and did a lot to put us in that mindset.

Konchadunga made a lot of good points how other creators have been more than accomodating to other interpretations of their precious IP. Laird has always been a little too "Stiff" for my (and I'm guessing a few others) tastes.

At the same time, I think a lot of fans have put Laird (and Eastman too to a degree) on something of an undeserved pedestal "just" because they created the TMNT. Since they've both repeatedly said it's caused them more headaches than joy over the years, I'm not one of those people and I kinda wish they'd sold it off to someone who actually would have been more pro-active with the franchise years ago, even if what came of it wasn't "true to the creators' vision".

That's what I meant earlier by Laird not being as "into it" as we are. I meant we LOVE the TMNT, and I don't think Eastman or Laird ever saw it as more than a business. The more Laird especially talks about it, he makes it seem like it was the worst thing he ever did. I can understand it, but I still hate it.

But all opinions are valid. Let's not go smackin' folks just because they don't all mesh.

[Metropoliskid41]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

And as an American, he has a right to give anyone the finger. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't mean they should. To go back to Marv Wolfman, he could have objected to the Teen Titans TV series, but in fact he was nice enough to write episodes for it.

This analogy/reasoning is flawed, as Laird was very active in the 2k3 series.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Metropoliskid41

This analogy/reasoning is flawed, as Laird was very active in the 2k3 series.

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

[Killer Moth]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics that Peter Laird had direct control over. That wasn't the case with the Teen Titans animated series; it wasn't developed by Marv Wolfman, made multiple changes from the source material, flanderized the characters tremendously, and in its adaptation of the Judas Contract arc, concluded with the exact sort of ending that Marv Wolfman deliberately avoided in the original. I'm kinda drunk right now, so I cannot really post a lot more, but I think my point is clear. Have you actually seen the Teen Titans cartoon?

(Puts on Titans-fan hat for a moment.)

At most, Marv Wolfman wrote only two episodes. The first was a late Season 1 filler episode, which was lackluster at best. (It was remarkable in that it introduced Aqualad and Trident.) He later wrote part 1 of the Season 3 finale, and offered the best Brother Blood characterization in the series. Either way, Marv wasn't involved much, but he obviously was willing to go along for the ride.

Actually, the animated series was an improvement for both Starfire and Raven. Comic Starfire was basically Innocent fan-service girl, while Comic Raven was walking and talking wangst. Both characters are good, yet the animated series obviously had to tone down such characterizations and, in their way, improve them. However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Same with the Judas Contract, as the revisions were acceptable until the writers couldn't decide to make Terra become like her comic self (a hardcore psychopath who loved being evil) or go with the sympathetic character the animated version was becoming. That, and 5 episodes of her in a 13 episode season doesn't exactly allow the audience to truly empathize the loss or impact of her betrayal.

Oddly enough, the show started to nudge toward its comic roots with the final two seasons, especially the final one with its take on "Titans Hunt." It all works out, somehow.

Anyway, it isn't the best comparison, for Laird played an incredibly major hand with the 2003 series than Wolfman ever did. For example, in reading the emails, it is rather interesting in how the 4Kids writers/producers were quite willing to do even more allusions to the OT. As for Laird shooting them down, you can decide if it was a good thing, or not.

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

Anyway, moving on to hopefully something on-topic. He makes an interesting point about 'changing the origin for the sake of changing,' or to make something more about the Turtles rather than the accidential nature of their birth. On the one hand, the reincarnation angle is an incredibly fresh one, yet, on the other, we lose the Daredevil/Frank Miller parody which inspired the Turtles in the first place. Win some, lose some, I suppose.

Daredevil is a rather obscure character; that the Turtles were a parody of his stories would hardly be apparent to most modern readers, so there is virtually nothing to be gained from reiterating their origin as analogous to his. I retain my opinion that adaptations most definitely should change things for change's sake; that's the point of adaptations, so long as they aren't anything too excessive. (I'm looking at you; Michael Bay!) Also, Peter Laird slammed Cowboys and Aliens for being "by the numbers;" so I'm guessing that part of his attitude is that he's just extremely pessimistic about almost everything.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Killer Moth

However, unique problems later developed, as comic Raven eventually became more like her sardonic and surly animated character. (Her reactions toward Beast Boy by the end of the animated series were borderline abusive, hence the complaint.)

Raven's abuse of BB was completly understandable seeing as the writers admitted they wrote them like how an "old married couple" would act...I agree that it gets a little sadistic (particulary in Titans in Tokyo), but it's still pretty funny, and you know the two love each other to bits anyway (Besides, they became a couple in the comics, and they ended the pre-52 Titan continuity together). Hopefully the new all-comedy Titan cartoon slowly blurs and blends their comic and cartoon histories together.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It is not flawed, because the 2k3 series was (at least initially) a relatively acurate adaptation of the Mirage comics

Not at all.