Republicans push for an amendment that would ban abortion; even if the woman is raped

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

It still amazes me how conservatives want to actually move backwards and fight change. Shut down anything that tries to replace gas, ban abortion, take health care back to where companies can F over clients, and spending money to kick every illegal immigrant out of the country and erect some kind of super fence that they will figure out how to get past anyways. I mean really they're genius. They're philosophy is basically "If people want to make choices in their lives that I don't agree with I and don't effect me at all I want to make it illegal." On top of "If someone is stupid enough to let me rip them off that's their problem."

Not all change is for the better. If you pack on 300 lbs. of lard, is that a desirable change?

As far as replacing gas is concerned, forget it. Sometimes there is no replacement. Nuclear power turned out not to be a magic cure-all for our energy needs. If there is no water to drink or produce food, what do we have as a replacement? Absolutely nothing at all.

Banning abortion? The reality is that the pro-abortion people don't want any restrictions on abortion, using the emotive argument that it's oppressing women. Should we allow infanticide while we're at it?

Think national health care is so wonderful? It turns out that in nations that have it, it's not so wonderful in practice that it is in theory. One British girl on Devianart told me she hated the national health care system, and I've heard people on other forums complain that the system has become overrun with bureaucracy and politics and quality has suffered.

Kicking out illegal immigrants? Why shouldn't we? All this propaganda about "they do work Americans won't do" is bushwa. That's because they work at the American equivalent of starvation wages, and employers don't pay taxes on them. A good deal for the employers, a bad deal for the rest of us.

As for "what others choose to do doesn't affect me," also bushwa. If someone gambles their money away, what about anybody they're supposed to support, such as their wife and kids? If someone refuses to wear their seat belts while driving, that does affect society-namely in supporting someone who might be maimed for life instead of receiving relatively minor injury. So other peoples' decisions do affect you, whether you can see it or not.

Being ripped off? You can avoid being ripped off in most cases by doing basic research and taking basic precautions. Oftentimes people wind up being ripped off as a result of their own stupidity. Society isn't responsible for that.

[Katie]

Originally Posted by Master Splinter

This brings up an interesting thought... What kind of rights does the rapist have now that he is a father? Sure he committed a crime by raping the woman but he should still have rights as a new father correct? Could he legally keep the woman he raped from having an abortion because he is the father and wants to raise the child? What if he is very christian and believes every word out of Leviticus. Should the woman be forced to marry the man who raped her just so everything is peachy in the eyes of the lord.

I don't agree with this but it seems like many here would with the backwards thinking I am seeing in this thread. You can believe whatever you want, but if you are trying to make a law based on your religious belief then it seems as though you are crossing a line, because there is a big chance that I don't believe what you believe. So don't force your beliefs on me. If you have a problem with it, pray for me, and in the end I will deal with God on my own. I don't need your laws, guidance, or approval for that.

-ms

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

one thing is important to say is, it's not about having an abortion whenever you want. it's no longer an option after the fetus develop consciousness and pain receptors. (It's pro-choice not pro-abortion)

The law is simple here in Norway, you can't take an abortion after week 12. after that you need a special permission due to medical reasons. The second trimester don't start until week 14 after the last menstrual period.

Most abortions in the USA, according to what I've heard, are performed very early in pregnancy. Abortion wouldn't even be an issue if there wasn't such a hysteria against any restrictions on it.

[Master Splinter]

Originally Posted by Katie

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

So in theory a man can rape a woman, get her pregnant, have the law keep her from having an abortion, take her to court for custody, and possibly have her pay child support as well.

Wow.

-ms

[ComicBookBoy]

Originally Posted by Katie

In 31 states the rapist does actually have parental rights. So, as a woman, you would then have to go to court again to fight for the termination of the rapists parental rights should he demand custody or visitation.

Also, in my understanding of God, God is all knowing.....your whole life is known to Him before you are even known. So, this being the case, God already knows the fate of every fetus. Why would he put a soul in something he knows isn't going to be in the world.

Each of those children who were aborted still had a soul, and God still loved them. That is why God said,
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.."
Just because God knows that those children are going to be murdered doesn't mean He is going to intervene. If God stopped every person from doing something evil then the world would be perfect.

[Katie]

Murder shouldn't be used to describe an abortion.

Murder is a legal term whereby a human knowingly and with malice ends the life of another human. For it to be murder, the fetus would have to be considered legally alive. In the legal definition of life....life begins at birth not conception.

Exceptions are sometimes made when the fetus would be viable outside the womb as in the Lacy Peterson case.

[Jester]

What abouts cases where the mother and baby are killed and the killer is charged for BOTH deaths? If a fetus isn't a life, then there shouldn't be mutiple counts of murder in those cases. You can't have it both ways.

[Katie]

See that exception thing I wrote?

Some states allow a second murder charge if the fetus is viable outside of the womb. Doubt any state would bring double murder charges if the woman was only a few weeks preggers

[Leo656]

The stuff I miss when I go to work...

Yeesh, all this commotion over what is, essentially, a blood clot. Madness. This one's gonna be long, I am very close to this topic and have very passionate beliefs. The easily offended know to just skip it.

You know when you're officially "a living person"? When you pop out. That's it. Not before. Anything prior to that is "A work in progress" and anything can happen. If I am on the road, just around the corner from work, but I'm not there yet, almost, but pretty close... I'm still not "at work", and I'm not given credit towards being so. Likewise, I don't count anyone as a member of the human race until they are present and accounted for... and usually, not even then. It's a rather broad, silly, and extreme way to make a point, I grant you, but all the intelligent arguements were taken already.

More on point: Abortion isn't murder, in many cases it's the RIGHT thing to do. My sister shacked up with an asshole, he beats her, he beats her in front of the kids, it's the way sh*t is with them. She had the first kid hoping he would calm down. No change, except now my 13-yr old neice has a f*cked up life and mental issues from watching her mommy get hit her whole life. My sister had several abortions since then, since she's on welfare, can't afford even ONE kid and really didn't even need that one (although I love and adore my neice), but about 6 years ago, she made another mistake (which is all it can be called when someone willingly chooses to have a baby with an abusive poiece of sh*t) and got pregnant again. This time it was gonna be a boy, so she decided "He will change when he has a son", instead he became worse than ever. He doesn't care about those kids, they ONLY represent a way for him to control my sister and make her miserable forever. She loves and adores her kids, and always talks about how they are "the reason she was made to suffer so much", b/c at least THEY got to be born... BUT she also tells me every time we talk about how as soon as her youngest is older she is absolutely going to kill herself, because she knows she made every bad decision possible and now she is paying for it. I love those kids, but I cannot stand how HER life had to be destroyed so they could exist. I will not accept it. Ever. She should NEVER have had kids; she only stayed with that piece of sh*t "for their sake" and the courts wouldn't let her leave him.

My parents never should have had kids either, they both had a few before they got together and had me, I was a complete accident, not planned for, and my parents never got along so all having me accomplished was forcing two people who hated each other to hate each other IN FRONT of ME, putting me into years of therapy and years of self-loathing, insecurity, wondering why I exist at all... it's just NOT a good way to live. And this is not self-pity, this is simply me telling it as I see it: There is nothing special about me, or my life. I'm an average guy with an average job who's going to have to work ten years after I'm dead to wipe out my debt, same as anyone and everyone else. I highly doubt I have some higher purpose, or that the world would be in ANY way different for better OR worse if I was never born. I'm not arrogant enough to think I matter. There is no reason why I had to exist, when all it did was ruin my parents' lives and erase any chance for them to find happiness with other, more suitable partners. My step-siblings hated my father so much for having me, they refused to go to his funeral, because my existence "ruined" their family. My parents only stayed together b/c of me, and every single day growing up I had to hear the fights, see the abuse, and try and convince myself it wasn't MY fault, when the only reason they stayed together at ALL was because Mom got pregnant. Now, my sister repeated our mother's mistakes, and now I have to watch and listen to HER kids go through exactly what *I* went through. It's torture.

Human life is NOT sacred. FACT. In fact, there is no life on Earth that is LESS noble than human life. We are the absolute worst offenders on the entire planet, but because we have a "higher intelligence" we convince ourselves we are special? That every single egg that has a chance at life deserves to be carried to term, no matter what? "Because they might be the next Einstein"? They could be the next f*cking Hitler, too, ever think about that? I mean this with every fiber of my soul: NO ONE should EVER have kids, under ANY circumstances. Preventative measures need to be taken by ANY means necessary, and that includes abortion. Like Andrew said, planet's (over)full. Cramming more puppies into the sack isn't going to mean anything except less air for all of them.

People have sex with people they shouldn't. That is a shame, but it has never and will never change. We can NOT just say "Well, be more selective, or don't have sex", because that goes against our genetic programming, which is far stronger than any "higher brain functions" or "morality" we PRETEND to have. You can't punish them and everyone else involved by making them have and take care of kids they didn't want, can't take care of, and whose own lives are going to be ruined by piss-poor upbringing.

And don't even mention adoption as an alternative, b/c unless you're a super-rich bleeding-heart liberal like Angelina Jolie or Rosie O'Donnell, people only want to adopt brand-new, fresh and clean, lily-white babies. Most black, Hispanic, mixed-race, crack-addicted, HIV-infected, Down's Syndrome-afflicted babies DON'T get adopted, they either linger and die OR grow up to become wards of the state, which is a nice way of saying "Future Criminals". Really fair deal, huh?

Being pregnant is not a "gift" or a "Blessing" (Go find any pregnant woman 6-7 months along and ask her how "blessed" she feels, I f*cking dare you), it's a MEDICAL CONDITION. That can be good or bad depending on circumstance. That book of make-believe and fairy-tales people cite to justify human life (but none other, and only Male human life) as sacred was written to control people's thoughts and actions during a time when the average life expectancy was 25 and half the population was dying of Plague, it has ZERO relevance anymore. None. Nada. Nothing past the "Treat others as you want to be treated" part, which is the only relevant thing in there and, ironically, the part EVERYONE ignores, while cherry-picking whatever they want to justify whatever THEY believe, and force it on others. Again, madness.

Sorry to rant, but again, I'm *really* close to this subject. Abortion is right, like it or not; not only is it *A* right, it's just plain right. You may never hear me say this again: Stryker and Andrew are absolutely right about absolutely everything they have said so far.

"Not every ejaculation needs a NAME, folks..." - George Carlin

[mysterycolor]

Originally Posted by Katie

In the legal definition of life....life begins at birth not conception.

And there is the rub- people want to use religious definitions and beliefs about life to dictate the rights that women have over their own bodies... In the United States the scientific explanation that brings us to life beginning at birth is what we have come to accept as truth- what someone believes is right or wrong within their personal life is moot because we have the privilege of separation of church and state. It is why we dont issue social security numbers for each pregnancy and issue death certificates in the case of a miscarriage- the government simply doesnt recognize it as a human life until it is born.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've always had a pretty tough time buying the "It's murder!" thing.

I mean, every month that a woman menstrates out an unfertilized ovum into the toilet... is she guilty of murder, because she refused to have the egg fertilized and that ovum could have been a life, even the next Albert Einstein? Of course not, that's crazy.

It seems like a slippery slope when people try to define the moment when "legitimate" life begins. If we're talking about a human zygote, then... you know... even a mosquito is more self-aware and intelligent than that at this point, so it can't be a question of quantifiable sentience.

"But it COULD become a life!" is the rallying cry I hear. But then I find myself arriving right back at the beginning of my argument in this post.

I guess I would say when there is brain activity, when it can think and feel.

Originally Posted by mysterycolor

And there is the rub- people want to use religious definitions and beliefs about life to dictate the rights that women have over their own bodies... In the United States the scientific explanation that brings us to life beginning at birth is what we have come to accept as truth- what someone believes is right or wrong within their personal life is moot because we have the privilege of separation of church and state. It is why we dont issue social security numbers for each pregnancy and issue death certificates in the case of a miscarriage- the government simply doesnt recognize it as a human life until it is born.

I't's not about dictating the rights that women have over their own bodies it's about giving rights to the unborn, and what does the separation of church and state have anything to do with supporting abortion or not?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Not all change is for the better. If you pack on 300 lbs. of lard, is that a desirable change?

You're gonna compare human rights to someone plowing too many cheese burgers? Sorry not a valid counter argument.

As far as replacing gas is concerned, forget it. Sometimes there is no replacement. Nuclear power turned out not to be a magic cure-all for our energy needs. If there is no water to drink or produce food, what do we have as a replacement? Absolutely nothing at all.

There's plenty of other renewable sources of energy, not that nuclear isn't still an option. Problem is it doesn't benefit big wigs financially speaking so it will never happen.

Banning abortion? The reality is that the pro-abortion people don't want any restrictions on abortion, using the emotive argument that it's oppressing women. Should we allow infanticide while we're at it?

The argument that a fetus is comparable to a living, breathing, person with a fully functional brain and self awareness is ridiculous. It can't feel. Here's a science quote for you "Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage, and may not be able to feel pain until the third trimester"

Think national health care is so wonderful? It turns out that in nations that have it, it's not so wonderful in practice that it is in theory. One British girl on Devianart told me she hated the national health care system, and I've heard people on other forums complain that the system has become overrun with bureaucracy and politics and quality has suffered.

I never said do what Europe does, I said it shouldn't be legal for health care companies to pull the crap they do. People can complain about free health care all they want but it's better then being stuck with a debt you can't afford to pay off.

Kicking out illegal immigrants? Why shouldn't we? All this propaganda about "they do work Americans won't do" is bushwa. That's because they work at the American equivalent of starvation wages, and employers don't pay taxes on them. A good deal for the employers, a bad deal for the rest of us.

Instead of attacking the immigrants themselves, who they will waste millions trying to stop, they should go after the guys who hire them. They don't do that though because those guys are the ones with the money and money changes everything.

As for "what others choose to do doesn't affect me," also bushwa. If someone gambles their money away, what about anybody they're supposed to support, such as their wife and kids? If someone refuses to wear their seat belts while driving, that does affect society-namely in supporting someone who might be maimed for life instead of receiving relatively minor injury. So other peoples' decisions do affect you, whether you can see it or not.

Yeah but how does abortion affect you? How does gay marriage affect you? It doesn't. My statement was referring to things that do you zero harm. I made that pretty clear.

Being ripped off? You can avoid being ripped off in most cases by doing basic research and taking basic precautions. Oftentimes people wind up being ripped off as a result of their own stupidity. Society isn't responsible for that.

You should be a business man. If people are stupid enough to put trust in you then abuse that trust. Perfect mentality. It's okay to pray on people with lower IQs or from low income areas with bad education systems. I mean who cares about them? They're not equal to me because I'm smarter and I have more money.

Selfish. Sad and selfish.

[Leo656]

Brain activity? That's kind of silly. There's people who are fully walking around upright, and even feed and dress themselves, yet have NO evidence of brain function at all. Many of these people even get elected to high-ranking positions of importance.

Joking aside, rights of the unborn? Who gives a F*CK about the rights of people who don't even exist beyond a possibility? Who honestly cares, when there are millions of REAL people all over the world who have their rights taken away and trampled on every single day? Don't they count? Or are we only pretending to be noble and caring in regards to those who have no minds of their own yet and haven't proven themselves incompetent? It's a serious question.

People care more about the rights of "people" who haven't even grown a brain (literally), and many of those same people never gave two cents to a domestic violence charity, or a charity to protect kids from child abuse. Yet they have very strong opinions and arguments about what life means and whether women can flush some blood down the toilet. I find that very interesting, honestly.

"If you're Pre-Born, you're Fine, if you're PreSchool, you're F*CKED!" - George Carlin

EDIT: Y'know what, screw it, he already said the Final Word on this debate YEARS ago. Here it is, and it's bulletproof. Not safe for school, work, or anyplace else. But it's all true. Bad language out the @$$, so be warned.

[mysterycolor]

Originally Posted by Xav

I guess I would say when there is brain activity.

I't's not about dictating the rights that women have over their own bodies it's about giving rights to the unborn, and what does the separation of church and state have anything to do with supporting abortion or not?

i would like to believe you are joking...but deep down i know you arent the connection between separation of church and state and supporting abortion is that the majority of people that argue the "rights" of the fetus are doing so based upon their religious beliefs and the biblical definition of life- and this cannot be what we base government policies on because we are not a christian nation and we do have freedom from religion and a separation of church and state.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

The argument that a fetus is comparable to a living, breathing, person with a fully functional brain and self awareness is ridiculous. It can't feel. Here's a science quote for you "Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage, and may not be able to feel pain until the third trimester"

So would you be against abortion at that stage in development?

Originally Posted by mysterycolor

i would like to believe you are joking...but deep down i know you arent the connection between separation of church and state and supporting abortion is that the majority of people that argue the "rights" of the fetus are doing so based upon their religious beliefs and the biblical definition of life- and this cannot be what we base government policies on because we are not a christian nation and we do have freedom from religion and a separation of church and state.

So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Xav

So would you be against abortion at that stage in development.
So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?

Considering you'd basically die if you tried to have one after I believe 22 weeks I would be against it. It's unsafe and would literally kill the Mother. No doctor in their right mind would perform one that late in the game.

[mysterycolor]

Originally Posted by Xav

So would you be against abortion at that stage in development?
So what a nine month fetus isn't a life, but a premature birth that survives is?

according to the current definition of life, yes- just like you don't have a funeral for a miscarriage but you may for a baby that dies of complications after being birthed.

[Leo656]

I wouldn't suggest a full-blown funeral for the aborted/miscarried fetus. But out of respect, someone could at least play "Taps" on a kazoo... That's not too much to ask, I don't think.

I'm feeling nice. I only self-censor once every hundred years, and only when I'm asked VERY nicely.

[Spitfire]

Honestly that's insensitive and uncalled for. It also doesn't help any of the arguments you've made. Abortions and miscarriages are hard for women. Just because they choose to abort a baby does not mean they aren't affected by it. It hits them both mentally and psychically.

[mysterycolor]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Honestly that's insensitive and uncalled for. It also doesn't help any of the arguments you've made. Abortions and miscarriages are hard for women. Just because they choose to abort a baby does not mean they aren't affected by it. It hits them both mentally and psychically.

you are absolutely right- and that is why decisions involving pregnancy, abortion and anything else surrounding our reproductive system should be left for us to determine what is best. as if just being pregnant isnt tumultuous enough, add in a less than desirable, or absolutely tragic situation into that... and make it worse by having people hover around judging when they know nothing about what it is like. ever notice that during abortion debates people rarely bring up the situations where pregnancy has to be "terminated" because complications will result in the death of the mother- how dare anyone make that woman feel wrong for choosing to abort the fetus so she can live... it is disgusting the way we treat women in this country it is often referred to as the "invisible burka"- we may not come right out and cover our women... but politicians wont hesitate to slash their rights for a campaign promise... and the fact that it is effective proves just how deep the nastiness goes.