Has the "it's for kids' mentality been holding TMNT back?

[Metalwolf]

And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Commenter 42]

Lol, over to you Leo...

[Rooish]

I think it's pretty much agreed by people who like other Turtles incarnations, such as the comics, that the mentality is terrible for the TMNT.

[Cure]

It's a good thing in my opinion. I don't like the serious stuff.

At the same time, however, everyone deserves to get their preference so a balance is needed.

[Luckyday]

If you're going to have "it's for kids" mentality then why bother making it an action orientated show in the first place? You might as well get rid of the ninja aspect and the whole deal with the Shredder all together when nothing at stake.

[Rooish]

This being said, the "dark and gritty" stuff was not a big part of Mirage Volume 1 except in the first issue, Return to New York, Shades of Gray and City at War. The rest was lots of wacky zaniness. And as much as I like the more adult stuff, I prefer the Turtles don't take killing too lightly.

[Luckyday]

The show is at it's best when it's made for everyone or at least when both parents and their children can sit down and watch it and enjoy it together. Since TMNT is one of those properties that has more then one generation of fans, this the best approach when writing for this show. Arguably, at cartoon network when creators are set out to create something that they themselves would enjoy watching, then more often then not, the end result is often a master piece or at least really good and entertaining.

With nick's tmnt, it's sometimes hard to determine on whenever if the writing team is just having fun or craving to the demand.

[Powder]

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

[IndigoErth]

Socially speaking it's an unfair stigma that people won't let go of, and if it's what society assumes and expects then it's probably what some are bound to keep aiming for. Though I assume the franchise itself would have the power to do whatever it damn well pleases for whoever they want to gear something toward.

Really it irks me every time I see that stated. I am perfectly happy to share with the younger generations, they will after all help in making sure the Turtles continue to exist, but any time I see "it's a kids thing/movie/whatever" I can't help but feel a bit territorial. No one is telling or insinuating to lifelong 60-year-old fans that Superman isn't for them anymore. ("Oh, the last Superman movie was stupid? Well its a kids thing, what do you expect? I just looked at it how my 6-year-old self would have and enjoyed it!") Hell, I don't know much about Superman, but as a "kids thing" TMNT certainly seems, to me, more brutal than Superman.

Turtles can't get no respect.

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by Powder

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

Yes.

Unfortunately it seems the "darkest" thing we have right now is the new movie. The IDW comic has its dark moments

Spoiler:

but the Turtles have yet to kill anyone, even when Leo was brainwashed to follow Shredder and was guilt-ridden after.

The Nick show has pretty dark episodes too, but without emotional payoff. And Nickelodeon is preventing the IDW comic from being darker.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Rooish

The Nick show has pretty dark episodes too, but without emotional payoff.

That's just really frustrating because this show has the greatest voice talent that I have ever seen that's on par with Avatar and just about any show from Cartoon Network.

If only they let that voice talent lend itself with it's writing then by god, there would be some really great scenes.

[Leo656]

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

At the same time, you really need to have something for everyone. It's not like, I'unno, My Little Pony or SpongeBob, where it clearly IS just for kids and everyone else can like it if they want, but it can never, ever be anything else but what it is. TMNT can be, and has been, a lot more than a simple kids' show. The very best of its potential simply can never be reached when it's all watered down. Think about it: You have a main character who carries two swords around constantly and all he can or will ever do with them is slice robots. That's... lame. It's like Thundercats; you give the main character this giant, awesome magic sword, but it's a kids's show, so instead of the only LOGICAL thing you could come up with for conflict resolution (Being stabbed with the Sword of Omens is the One and Only thing that can kill Mumm-Ra), you do something entirely stupid just to avoid the violence so you won't "traumatize the kiddies" (Mumm-Ra seeing his REFLECTION in the Sword Of Omens defeats him... WHY give Lion-O a f*cking sword at all?! He may as well carry around a goddamn hand mirror!). Same Stupid Sh*t.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

Let's face an uncomfortable truth: TMNT is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman, partly because they've never had that "mature" take, aside from the first movie which was only 3/4 that, really. But on the other hand, they ain't Bugs Bunny as far as their popularity as a cartoon, either. The franchise can't survive by just doing another cartoon every few years and pumping out more toys; to some degree, you have to let the material Grow Up with the audience, and if you want them to STAY fans, you have to keep giving them new stuff to like as they get older, stuff they can actually relate to.

Otherwise... hate to break it to ya, gang, but this franchise won't last. If it's not allowed to be More than just a kids' cartoon, it'll fade out, and eventually, when the Nick powers-that-be feel like they've squeezed their last dollar out of it, they'll stick it on a shelf next to Hey Dude and Doug and stick it in a nostalgia block at 3am, and otherwise you'll never see it again. That's not a worst-case scenario, that's a "It Will happen" scenario. TMNT isn't anywhere NEAR as popular as it could and should be, and as some of the fans think it is. It can and will die one day if it's not allowed to break out of that "Kids Show" box it's trapped in now.

[LeoRaph]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

At the same time, you really need to have something for everyone. It's not like, I'unno, My Little Pony or SpongeBob, where it clearly IS just for kids and everyone else can like it if they want, but it can never, ever be anything else but what it is. TMNT can be, and has been, a lot more than a simple kids' show. The very best of its potential simply can never be reached when it's all watered down. Think about it: You have a main character who carries two swords around constantly and all he can or will ever do with them is slice robots. That's... lame. It's like Thundercats; you give the main character this giant, awesome magic sword, but it's a kids's show, so instead of the only LOGICAL thing you could come up with for conflict resolution (Being stabbed with the Sword of Omens is the One and Only thing that can kill Mum-Ra), you do something entirely stupid just to avoid the violence so you won't "traumatize the kiddies" (Mumm-Ra seeing his REFLECTION in the Sword Of Omens defeats him... WHY give Lion-O a f*cking sword at all?! He may as well carry around a goddamn hand mirror!). Same Stupid Sh*t.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

Let's face an uncomfortable truth: TMNT is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman, partly because they've never had that "mature" take, aside from the first movie which was only 3/4 that, really. But on the other hand, they ain't Bugs Bunny as far as their popularity as a cartoon, either. The franchise can't survive by just doing another cartoon every few years and pumping out more toys; to some degree, you have to let the material Grow Up with the audience, and if you want them to STAY fans, you have to keep giving them new stuff to like as they get older, stuff they can actually relate to.

Otherwise... hate to break it to ya, gang, but this franchise won't last. If it's not allowed to be More than just a kids' cartoon, it'll fade out, and eventually, when the Nick powers-that-be feel like they've squeezed their last dollar out of it, they'll stick it on a shelf next to Hey Dude and Doug and stick it in a nostalgia block at 3am, and otherwise you'll never see it again. That's not a worst-case scenario, that's a "It Will happen" scenario. TMNT isn't anywhere NEAR as popular as it could and should be, and as some of the fans think it is. It can and will die one day if it's not allowed to break out of that "Kids Show" box it's trapped in now.

Which is why I'm such a firm believer that WB should try to buy the rights from viacom when they're done with it. Personally, I think they know how to give the best of both worlds better than anyone else. I know they can do them justice. I mean, TMNT even is influenced by DC Writers & Artists what could be a more fitting place to end up. It will be given justice on so many levels but will it happen...who knows..

[Luckyday]

I can't help but wondering if franchise would have that nice middle ground if it had become part of the Marvel Universe?

[Leo656]

They'd honestly have a better sandbox to play in at DC/WB. Marvel already has too many mutants, and actually, just Too Many Characters in general. This isn't even a matter of anyone saying "Well I prefer Marvel over DC" or whatever, that isn't the point, it's just a point of where they'd fit better and actually Stand Out more.

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

It's a pipe dream either way, and I know more people tend to prefer Marvel but frankly, that arrangement wouldn't actually work as well as it may seem at first glance. If it HAD to be one of the two companies, DC/WB would objectively be the better fit.

[FoxBoxKid]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

But cartoons shouldn't be just for kids. That's an even bigger problem, I think. The "cartoons are for kids" mentality is stifling creativity and holding back our culture. It sickens me that people are so close-minded and/or ignorant that they have those preconceived notions about art.

[Leo656]

You're right about that, but Nick is doing these particular cartoons now and forever so you can just forget anything greater than what we already have.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

Dude, I just imagined TMNT as a Vertigo comic. Awesome.

Anyways, I instantly count Marvel out just due to the Hand Clan being there. Although I guess you could work the Foot in as a branch or even new rival to the Hand. That would be so full circle.

[Leo656]

DC: Foot Clan rivalry with the League of Shadows. BOOM.

[turtlefanforever]

the mentality is wrong but people who think that and aren't actually involved in creating more work within the franchise it's just whatever. Like look at the nick cartoon for example. It panders to the lowest common denominator. it is solely for kids and toddlers. Like other stuff for whatever reason there is some adult oriented jokes snuck in there just cause Hollywood is sick and likes to do that for some reason. The cartoons will be aimed more towards kids. It's all been that way besides 2k3 which was aimed more towards teens and really followed stayed true to the source content as best as it could within the perimeters that it was given. It's really just whatever because the people that think that aren't the ones putting out the content for us to watch or read. Besides the fellows running the nick series.