So what's the big deal about not depicting Shredder as a normal human?

[neatoman]

So I know there tends to be a bit of a controversy when the Shredder is depicted as anything other than a regular human (Utrom Shredder is probably the most known controversy, but see also Undead Shredder and Mechasuit Shredder).

Why though is something I don't really sympathise with. I mean let's face it, the Shredder looks cool but that's really about it, in terms of depth and personality he kind of sucks. He's usually a pretty shallow character, usually driven by revenge or desires of conquest with very few definable traits added. The closest a "normal" version of him has been given something more is the Nickelodeon Shredder, and that version of him just feels confusing to be honest.

You might as well mess around with him, at least that way he'll have something a little more interesting about him.

[pennydreadful]

He's the most well-known and favored villain in the franchise. I don't know how you get "he sucks" from that. If you don't like him, that's your opinion (but I'm gonna come out and say right now that it's wrong.)

People don't like him being mutated or being an alien because the idea of an evil ninja master who commands numerous minions, and who can kick all of the Turtles' butts with one hand behind his back is interesting enough as is - it's not a concept that requires improving.

The idea of revenge as primary character motivation is perfectly acceptable and has been used for decades in fiction. Wanting to get back at someone for something - either a real or imagined wrong - is a normal human trait that everybody has experienced at some point in their lives. Shredder is an extension of that.

[CyberCubed]

He's still human in most incarnations, where are you getting this from?

OT = human
Nick = human
Movies = human (even after Super Shredder)
Archie = human
Mirage = human (worm clones separate character)
IDW = human (resurrected but still human)

It was only in 4kids he was an Utrom and yet there was still a human Oroku Saki in the past.

[IndigoErth]

I guess making him anything besides human might take away from his conflict with Splinter/Turtles, making it less personal and might lose some of the connection to why it's even there. ?

If your enemy turns out to be some evil alien, then I guess your conflict with them was more on circumstance and chance than anything of personal meaning on either side. Ends up you just got involved because...uh, well you just did, and they were bad so I guess someone had to.

I dunno, just my thought on it at least. Can't say I've ever really given it much thought before other than preferring human Shredder.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

He's still human in most incarnations, where are you getting this from?

OT = human
Nick = human
Movies = human (even after Super Shredder)
Archie = human
Mirage = human (worm clones separate character)
IDW = human (resurrected but still human)

It was only in 4kids he was an Utrom and yet there was still a human Oroku Saki in the past.

Key word is "normal", I would hardly say "resurrected and immortal" is something "normal".

[mexichrist83]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

People don't like him being mutated or being an alien because the idea of an evil ninja master who commands numerous minions, and who can kick all of the Turtles' butts with one hand behind his back is interesting enough as is - it's not a concept that requires improving.

This. Also, in a franchise like this where gimmicky villains can be easily created by simple origin of mutation Shredder (while originating from the gimmick of having blades and spikes as armor) still remains a more grounded villain than the roster of mutants. He continues to be a formidable foe against the turtles without needing any type of enhancements like being mutated or an Utrom.

Even without his armor he could still hold own against the turtles and that makes him that much more of a threat against the turtles. His backstory with the turtles and Splinter is also very important which makes his antagonism against the turtles more meaningful and personal. That makes for a more interesting story.

[DarkFell]

I wondered about this same question, especially since the Shredder Redesign contest will end in a few days. I have thought of at least several different variations of Shred, but nothing that keeps him totally human.
Thanks for posting a thread that has given me an opportunity to really think of how he can still be interesting without mutating, being a hybrid of something else, ect..

[Mew]

I don't know.
I liked the Utrom Shredder in the 4Kids series. There are some people who want it exactly like the comics, where he was in a humanoid state. You had the clones, but those weren't human. You all are forgetting Dragon Lord from Next Mutation, although Shredder was human for some of "East meets West", the first four episodes of well, Next Mutation. Now, I don't mind what they did in the 2k7 film, but it would have been nice to see Shredder not human. I think people are just over-reacting, and if the Nicktoon mutates Shredder, people should just watch it. Give it a chance. The story could be great. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[DarkLightDragon]

Good question. Maybe it's because having a regular human as an antagonist go up against four mutated Turtles and a rat seems rather boring and feel said antagonist needs an 'edge' over them in some way?

[Bry]

I feel like keeping the Shredder human is important because he represents a very human origin for the whole concept - obsession and vengeance, and the scars they leave. Having the concept start relatively "grounded" like that and letting it grow outward from there is like setting the foundation before you build up. To me that's very important. In this case, an obsessive rivalry and a cycle of vengeance are kind of universal, something that anyone can understand. TMNT is a very "out-there" concept, so keeping things somewhat grounded at the same time is especially important. Shredder and the Yoshi/Saki backstory is a big part of how they strike that key balance.

But, IMO, the Shredder being a "deep" character, or bigger/stronger/deadlier/whatever, isn't the important part. In the Mirage comics, he was probably at his most dangerous after he was dead and left a power vacuum in New York. The Turtles faced aliens at war and actual monsters, but it was the evil in a single person that cast the longest shadow and caused them the most grief. In the best versions of the story, he's memorable/important because of the personal, human impact he's had on the characters. That's what engages the audience and that's what makes it interesting.

Even in the biggest, most over-the-top action spectacles, it's the personal emotional connection that makes any characters or any story work. We don't need the Shredder to be an alien or a mutant or in a giant mech suit to be engaged with the story - we just need a reason to genuinely care about the characters and their struggle. This is why the 1990 movie's final battle had much more emotion and impact than the 2014 one, which really had nothing more to it than "good guys here, bad guy there, they fight now".

[DarkFell]

^^ I agree with the above. You helped me to understand how Shredder should really be handled, therefor you totally nailed him IMO. Kudos. Here is your award.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Bry

I feel like keeping the Shredder human is important because he represents a very human origin for the whole concept - obsession and vengeance, and the scars they leave. Having the concept start relatively "grounded" like that and letting it grow outward from there is like setting the foundation before you build up. To me that's very important. In this case, an obsessive rivalry and a cycle of vengeance are kind of universal, something that anyone can understand. TMNT is a very "out-there" concept, so keeping things somewhat grounded at the same time is especially important. Shredder and the Yoshi/Saki backstory is a big part of how they strike that key balance.

But, IMO, the Shredder being a "deep" character, or bigger/stronger/deadlier/whatever, isn't the important part. In the Mirage comics, he was probably at his most dangerous after he was dead and left a power vacuum in New York. The Turtles faced aliens at war and actual monsters, but it was the evil in a single person that cast the longest shadow and caused them the most grief. In the best versions of the story, he's memorable/important because of the personal, human impact he's had on the characters. That's what engages the audience and that's what makes it interesting.

Even in the biggest, most over-the-top action spectacles, it's the personal emotional connection that makes any characters or any story work. We don't need the Shredder to be an alien or a mutant or in a giant mech suit to be engaged with the story - we just need a reason to genuinely care about the characters and their struggle. This is why the 1990 movie's final battle had much more emotion and impact than the 2014 one, which really had nothing more to it than "good guys here, bad guy there, they fight now".

Well ok fine if having him be a human makes the backstory a little better but he's going to be the main villain, the one who keeps coming back over and over again, don't you kind of want him to be a little more than some dude out for revenge? If he's a one time villain then "Revenge and nothing more" is just fine but really needs to meatier in some way if going to appear multiple times, even if said "meatiness" is just freaky powers or a bizarre nature.

[Coola Yagami]

Aren't most villains that come back again and again 'some dude out for revenge'? That's kinda why they keep coming back, doncha know?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Aren't most villains that come back again and again 'some dude out for revenge'? That's kinda why they keep coming back, doncha know?

Yes but usually they're more interesting in some way, without a more fleshed out personality or special abilites they're just some guy who really hate the good guy and that's boring.

[Coola Yagami]

True but what's more special than leading a ninja army and being able to beat all 4 main characters without even trying?

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Well ok fine if having him be a human makes the backstory a little better but he's going to be the main villain, the one who keeps coming back over and over again, don't you kind of want him to be a little more than some dude out for revenge? If he's a one time villain then "Revenge and nothing more" is just fine but really needs to meatier in some way if going to appear multiple times, even if said "meatiness" is just freaky powers or a bizarre nature.

The Joker kept coming back and he was human, he was Batman's main arch-nemesis. Shredder doesn't need to be something extra special to keep coming back, the writers just have to be intelligent about how they do it.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

True but what's more special than leading a ninja army and being able to beat all 4 main characters without even trying?

Ah, ok then.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by DarkFell

^^ I agree with the above. You helped me to understand how Shredder should really be handled, therefor you totally nailed him IMO. Kudos. Here is your award.
http://chemistry.csulb.edu/images/award.jpg

Thank you, thank you! Haha

Originally Posted by neatoman

Well ok fine if having him be a human makes the backstory a little better but he's going to be the main villain, the one who keeps coming back over and over again, don't you kind of want him to be a little more than some dude out for revenge? If he's a one time villain then "Revenge and nothing more" is just fine but really needs to meatier in some way if going to appear multiple times, even if said "meatiness" is just freaky powers or a bizarre nature.

I can kind of understand that mindset... but then again, I don't think Shredder should "keep coming back over and over again". As I said before, he was at his most interesting to me after he died in the Mirage comics. His legacy, the cycle of vengeance, is more important than Saki himself. But that's just me.

[turtlefanforever]

If your mother had copulated with an alien instead of your father would the same result have happened?

There's your answer.

[syckles]

I liked Utrom Shredder, and the entire picture of the early 2003 storyline. Him not being human explained how he had a life time of training and it gave his character more depth... Even though essentially it wasn't just revenge on the turtles, but on them and other Utroms. I agree with him considering himself the "True Shredder"

I'm so thankful Eric Sacks wasn't the Shredder in the reboot like it was originally planned, I'd rather have a robot Shredder over him. As for mechsuit Shredder, the problem with the new TMNT is they're too powerful to be taken down by humans, as seen by the fact they're bullet proff and able to be hit by tanks. Shredder and the suit will probably become organic in the next film anyway.