Since I didn't get the chance...

[Leo656]

...and since there's no one more qualified than me, I figured I'd reply to a few of the things brought up in the Wrestling thread.

-WCW's History-
Until the mid-80s, the majority of the National Wrestling Alliance was owned by Jim Crockett Promotions. In the late-80s, Crockett's family ran into financial problems and sold their territory to Ted Turner, who had showcased pro wrestling on his programs since the beginning of his SuperStation WTBS. Turner immediately renamed his product World Championship Wrestling, and for a period of several years Turner's yes-men ran WCW into the ground. In 1993, WCW named Eric Bischoff as its new Executive Producer, and he revitalized the product and made it a more "professional" product, to the point where in 1994 they were able to woo Hulk Hogan to the promotion. In 1995, Turner demanded that a live show be aired on TNT on Monday nights to compete with Vince McMahon's WWF Raw, and WCW Nitro was born. Turner and Vince had been business partners in the past, but had a falling out, and Ted always hoped to beat Vince at his own game.

Up until 1998, WCW trashed the WWF in the ratings, and, in the opinion of a lot of fans, in the actual product, offering the fans matches they had never seen before on a big stage, like Hogan vs Flair, Bret Hart vs Flair, and showcasing exciting new wrestlers from Japan, Mexico and all over the world who had never been seen before, while the WWF mostly had the "Shawn Michaels and HHH have their hands in Vince's pants, so only them and their friends ever get to look good" show. Eventually, the WWF caught the public eye again with their aggressive new marketing strategy and risque' storylines, and Bischoff was fired and replaced with former WWF writer Vince Russo. Russo is, for lack of a better word, a hack who couldn't write a decent wrestling show if his life depended on it, and thought the way to lead WCW back to the promised land was through penis jokes and making fun of Jim Ross, a WWF announcer. Many WCW wrestlers, fed up with the company's lack of direction and reluctance to push anyone as a top star except for Hogan, Kevin Nash, and Diamond Dallas Page, left for the WWF.

Around this time, Turner and Time Warner merged with AOL, and a bunch of AOL lawyers and number-crunchers were sent in to run WCW, and since lawyers and accountants have no idea about things like marketing individual talent, promotion, writing storylines, and all the stuff involved in running a wrestling show, their micro-managing ran WCW into the ground in less than a year. By 2001, WCW, which less than two years before was worth $250 million, was sold to Vince McMahon and absorbed into the WWF for less than $20 million. After teasing the fans with a "WWF vs WCW" angle, Vince returned to his normal ways of pettiness, making all the WCW wrestlers look like idiots, firing some of them and jobbing the others out to the point that their careers were left in ruin. Only Booker T managed to survive and stay relatively popular.

For a more detailed account, check out the new DVD, "The Monday Night Wars", one of the single greatest behind-the-scenes DVDs I have ever seen on the greatest period ever in wrestling history.


-RAW vs SMACKDOWN, AND WHY THEY SPLIT-
A couple years ago, the WWF (now WWE) realized that they had a ton of guys under contract, yet only a few of them were ever able to be showcased on TV. How much time a wrestler gets on TV is directly related to how popular they are, and, therefore, how much they earn. As a solution, the WWF roster was split in half, with half of the wrestlers going to RAW and half of them going to SMACKDOWN, so everybody more or less got a fair shake rather than HHH and Shawn Michaels being all over EVERY show. Believe me, it's much, MUCH better this way.

As for the differences, RAW mostly showcases "big name" stars, like HHH (the biggest politician in history and the biggest cancer in the wrestling business), Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin, while SMACKDOWN has more younger, smaller, more athletic wrestlers like Eddy Guerrero, Kurt Angle and others. Basically, people can choose between two different products. Like faster matches and younger stars? Watch Smackdown. Want to watch established veterans and more intense storylines? Watch RAW. Personally, I prefer RAW because being live, it has an atmosphere that Smackdown can never have because SD is taped, and even though some of the RAW guys are older and not as fast as the SD guys, they are more experienced and have a knack for making their angles not seem ridiculous. Case in point, even though I know it is scripted, HBK and HHH made me absolutely HATE them for the way they've held Benoit down the past few weeks on RAW; conversely, the angle with Jamie Noble on SD with his girlfriend Nidia being "blind" made me change channels in disgust because everyone involved was such a horrible actor it sucked all the drama out of the situation. Both shows have wrestlers I like and want to see, however. Bottom line for me: Smackdown has some better wrestlers, but Raw has better writers and the wrestlers are better performers overall, both in and out of the ring.

-RANDY ORTON-
In my opinion, the most overrated, over-hyped up and comer in wrestling today. His moves are sloppy and loose, his promos are stiff and sound like they're being read off of cue cards, and his finisher the RKO is an absolute insult to DDP and the Diamond Cutter, THE greatest finisher in wrestling, ever. He's the new Rock, being forced down the fans throats until they accept him, at which point he will become an uber-face. Check some tape of Rock from 1998; he and Orton even dress the same.
He still has time to impress me, however. He's young, he can get better. I hated Goldberg for a long time, but over time he grew on me, particularly because his intensity and his "prescence" more than make up for his lack of moves. HHH, on the other hand, is STILL the wrestling equivalent of NyQuil, and puts me to sleep just as frequently as he did in 1995.

-WWF to WWE-
The World Wrestling Federation lost a lawsuit to the World Wildlife Fund two years ago, and had to give up the name and inititials, so they became World Wrestling Entertainment. One joke going around these days is that since the NWA: Total Nonstop Action group is now owned by Panda Energy, if the NWA ever reaches WCW status and beats the WWE in the wrestling war, it will be the second time the WWF got beat by a Panda.

-"FAKE"-
I hate that word. It has nothing to do with wrestling. Pro wrestling is not an athletic competion, it is an exhibition, it is entertainment. People get hurt, all too often, despite popular opinion. Knees are blown out, necks broken, pretty much every kind of athletic-based injury you can imagine, except that unlike other sports, wrestlers have NO off-season, and often have to wrestle through injuries that leave pro football and baseball players on the shelf. For everyone who rags on Hulk Hogan's age and lack of mobility, keep in mind that he hasn't had a medial collateral ligament in his left knee since 1999 or so, and has endured countless surgeries just so he can have the "one last great match" that he hopes to end his career on. Same goes for Kevin Nash. Wrestlers bleed, fall, and break bones just like any other athletes. And they do it all for less money and respect than so-called "real" athletes get, for the sake of entertaining people. To these men and women, wrestling is as "real" as it can possibly get. The storylines, some interviews, and the finishes of the matches are scripted, but the pain, suffering, and blood are all too real. Particularly for the young guys breaking in, who often have to sleep in their cars as they drive all over the country to wrestle in front of 50 people for twenty bucks. Tell one of them that they're "wasting their time" on something "fake", and see how fast they break your arm and teach you the meaning of respect. I'm friends with a few indy wrestlers, and believe me, they don't tolerate disrespect. To them, there's nothing more real than what they do.

People can like or not like wrestling, I really don't care. But to those who dislike it, what point is there telling those who do why they shouldn't like it? I don't try to change anyone's opinions, but I DO try and edjucate people so that at least they can make informed opinions rather than ignorant ones. If you like wrestling, good. If you don't, fine, but don't knock people that do like it.

"That night in Greenville... I went back in the dressing room, saw you standing there and you said 'God, that's good TV'... IT WAS REAL! You think Sting would be sittin' in the back, crying in the dressing room just as bad as I was, if it wasn't real?!" -- Ric Flair, to Eric Bischoff, 1999

[jeff the cheff]

Hmm...thats very interesting, thanks for all the info. Pretty much cleared up everything I wanted to know. I guess it seems good now that SD and Raw split.

[Leo656]

I live to serve.

[damnhooligan]

Ack, might wanna fix that av there, man.

[Caster_Troy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I live to serve.

Puh, promises, promises.
For real, nice to see you gracing us with yer presence again - albeit temporarily.

[GK Punk]

Glad to see you settin' it straight, my friend.

[愛]

That is a ridiculous amount of information. Well said, even though I stopped watching wrestling a few years ago.

[Reznorite420]

Originally Posted by Ai Takahashi

That is a ridiculous amount of information.

It's from Leo656, what did you expect?

Oh, wait...you're new.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Originally Posted by Caster_Troy

Puh, promises, promises.
For real, nice to see you gracing us with yer presence again - albeit temporarily.

Nice to have ya back dude, we've missed you.

[愛]

Originally Posted by Reznorite420

It's from Leo656, what did you expect?

Oh, wait...you're new.

That I am, but I'll get to know everyone eventually.

[That Matt Guy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't try to change anyone's opinions, but I DO try and edjucate people

HA!

[Mars-Chan]

Albit the short time...WELCOME BACK, DUDE!!!

[azure turtle]

Heh heh... I missed reading Leo's long posts on wrestling. I'll have to look into that Monday Night Wars DVD. Sounds very interseting.

[Wes]

Interesting; Leo's not a fan of HHH. I don't watch much wrestling these days -- can't stomach it; everything seems the more/less the same, except even more repulsive (I remember the days when wrestling was still "family" entertainment), but I always thought that HHH was one of the hardest workers out there, and I actually have a modicum of respect for the guy. Granted, he's been in the spotlight for a while, and it would be nice to see him step back a bit to let some of the others have a shot -- I was glad to see Rock do that from time to time (also to work on his movie career), and I still wish "Undertaker" would disappear -- but most of the great wrestling matches I've ever watched were great in part because of HHH's contributions. But like I said, I don't watch wrestling these days.

[Lisardo]

Thanks for all the info dude! I'll admit, I was huge into WWF back in the day with my older bro. Tho in the mid-90s I stopped watching it. Tho I did see it occasionally with Mike, my older bro. I missed out in the late 90s when Mick Foley was big, and the rock was huge, and when WCW was big. I knew about the split of NCW and WWF tho. The talk was always, when wrestling would come up, which do you like better. Most ppl would say WCW. I also learned a couple of years ago how WCW merged with WWF, and then later it changed it's name to WWE. So I do know some stuff, and some ppl.

In the past 6 months or so, I've finally gotten back into wrestling, boy am I glad I did too! I even saw a special on E! about Mick Foley, learning how he became a hardcore legend. I even saw footage on E! of him jumping off that cage from the very top, and landing on the floor hurting himself really bad. That guy will do anything! I must say that I can't stand Randy Orton, even if he is about my age. (cool to have a wrestler my age in there) He is an annoying showoff, and a big wuss. He can't beat up Mick Foley by himself, NOOOO, he hasta envolve Evolution in all his messes so they can wipe his butt! I kinda made up a quote I took and changed from the movie, 'Mortal Kombat'. "To take on Randy Orton is not only to take on him, but to take on Evolution." How true that is! And in the past two weeks he's been trying to end this Mick Foley thing, by proving to him that he's brave and not a coward. Well sorry Orton, by bringing in Evolution to beat up on one guy just proves how much a coward you really are!! That whole Evolution-beat-up-Foley thing this past Mon. was just stupid, and it got kinda boring after a while. 2nd week they've done that! I hope that whole thing gets resolved soon.

About the HHH/HBK/Benoit thing, as much as I like HBK I totally disrespect him just this one time for doing that to Benoit. I can see why he did it, but it got him nowhere as now (if i got this right) all 3 will be in a tripple treat match at Wrestlemania 20. Also I dunno why Benoit physically attacked HHH on Mon. Figured he was madder at HBK (tho they had a match together later). That thing is the other big 'argurment' besides Orton/Foley.

This whole thing with Trish is getting old too. Some kinda weird love triangle. Alrighty then! I do hope it works out for Trish and Jericho tho.


Mike finally got me into watching Smackdown. Sofar it's pretty good, but IMO not as good as RAW. And also IMO, I can't tell a difference when it comes to how small the wrestlers are, or how fast they are, as you (Leo656) explained the differences between RAW and Smackdown. It's about the same to me. Maybe there are more veterans on RAW, but still most of them are the same age as the ones on SD. You were right in storylines being better in RAW. Stupid question, I can't remember if SD has women's wrestling or not? When it comes to the managers, Biscoff vs. Hayman, I like Bisoff better. Plus SD doesn't have the whole co-manager good-guy like how Stone Cold is on RAW, gimmick. (or at least, not from what I've seen, remember haven't been watching SD very much) I do like Eddie Guerrio <sp?> tho. Also I like Kurt Angle, and starting to like John Cena more. And BigShow is one cool, but big, Andre the Giant-reminiscent, bad guy! Oh and while I'm at it, of RAW wrestlers, I like RVD, Goldberg (who shares the same b-day as me, Dec. 27th!), Jericho, Booker-T, HBK, Trish, Victoria, and all I can think of right now. Also, sorry but why is Ric Flair still here? I know he's a legend, but still he's just getting too old! Never could figger that one out. I dunno what's going on with Hulk Hogan, but I hope he will oneday come back. And he's prolly like 10 or so years younger than Ric Flair. So Hulk certainly isn't too old!

Well sorry so long, but those are my thoughts on RAW/SD lately.

[The Defibrillator]

That pretty much cleared up everything I didn't want to know.

But it's good Leo's back for a bit.

[raphael_is_cool]

Originally Posted by TeenageMutantNinja Hobbit

That pretty much cleared up everything I didn't want to know. .

Haha, my sentiments too

[WrestlingTurtlesFan4Life]

A treat from Sean.........again.


My thoughts on Triple H: To understand my loathing of Triple H, one must first know a little history. In 1995, Trips was just another WCW reject with a stupid gimmick who lost matches to idiots like Henry Godwinn "A wrestling hillbilly", Duke the Dumpster Droese "A wrestling garbage man", and The Ultimate Warrior "A wrestling......" well if any of you figure out what the deal is with this nutcase, please tell me and we'll both know, Often in record time. Then one day Shawn Micheals, Kevin Nash, and Scott Hall were looking for a flunky, someone to carry their bags and remind them all constantly of how great they were. At the time Micheals and Nash were 2 of the most popular wrestlers in the WWF and had major influence on Vince McMahon. Basically them and their friends always looked good, everyone else looked like crap. When Nash and Hall jumped to WCW for more money in 1996, Trips got promoted from backstage underling to Micheals on screen tag team partner and therefore became a main eventer overnight. After Micheals went down with a back injury, Trips, as the last surviving member of the Kliq (That was they're name), suddenly became unstoppable blowing down everyone in his way. At some point he was put in a program with Vince's daughter Stephanie and over time the 2 began dating and eventually got engaged. One can directly trace his path to the top of the industry by following his relationship with Stephanie McMahon. The 2 were married this past fall, further cementing Triple H's spot and basically giving him free reign to dictate how the company is run, leaving many wrestlers disgusted and unhappy. Rob Van Dam consistently one of the 3 most popular wrestlers in the company for the last 3 years has been particularly vocal about his desire to leave the WWE as soon as possible because "Theres 1 guy with 3 letters in his name who runs the show and those letters ain't RVD." That is essentially why I dislike Triple H. He got to the top simply by knowing the right people, and stayed there by banging the boss's daughter, and it is robbing the fans of the chance to see wrestlers they actually care about like RVD and Booker T get a fair chance.

Just for the record Hulk Hogan is 50 which to my knowledge makes him 5 years younger than Flair.

Just in case anyone was wondering my personal favorites include (in no particular order) Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, Chris Benoit, Randy Savage, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Chris Jericho, Dean Melanko, Vader, Curt Hennig, Sting, Diamond Dallas Page, Ric Flair, Raven, Goldberg, Rob Van Dam, The late Brian Pillman and, though I think he's a rotten human being, Shawn Micheals. As you can see not everyone prefers either the smaller more athletic wrestlers or the big hulking brawler types. I simply prefer wrestlers who are entertaining and can make things seem real no matter what size they are.

And again if someone doesn't like wrestling I don't get the point of being involved in a wrestling discussion. If theres something you don't understand thats one thing, but to chime in just to say "I don't like wrestling" is rather pointless in my opinion.



Mary here now.......I hate Hunter 2, although I did name my dog after him only because my mom wouldn't let me name him Undertaker. lol. My mom loves Triple H and I tried explaining to her what Sean just said to you here but she just says "It's all an act." My mom is stupid. Pthththth.

[Taloniss]

When Nash and Hall jumped to WCW for more money in 1996, Trips got promoted from backstage underling to Micheals on screen tag team partner and therefore became a main eventer overnight

Trips was still a midcarder until 1999. Granted, he was an upper level mid carder, but he didn't get a main event push until 1999.

[Scumsuckerdeluxe]

leo, you are a straight up wrestling gansta! I was watchin this show on wrestling, and they said that the original wrestlers (from the 1890's) were really not normal townsfolk, but physically degenerated natives. What I was wondering is this: is this true?

Anyone can answer this question