Is anyone else glad that there's little to no romance/shipping in the TMNT franchise?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

A perfect example of the problem in action.
Black characters aren't props. Gay characters aren't props. Female characters aren't props.

We're not here to further your story, we're part of it. And we always have been.

The problem isn't that we're asking for inclusion, the problem is your assumption we have no right/reason to be there in the first place.

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

Beside, these TMNT shows are filled with asien people any-way!

So that eliminates the race issue X)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

This reminds me of back in the 70's when they always threw a token black character into a show to avoid being called racist.

The 1987 TMNT show used this several times when it came to gangs, showing both white and black gang members.

[Loudo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Black characters aren't props. Gay characters aren't props. Female characters aren't props.

We're not here to further your story, we're part of it. And we always have been.

The problem isn't that we're asking for inclusion, the problem is your assumption we have no right/reason to be there in the first place.

This is what I call ability to synthesize. Bravo.

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

Considering TMNT is set in one of the most densely populated and diverse city on the entire planet, I'm not sure how this comparison applies.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Shredded

And sadly, America aren't as far as Britten, whom constantly stuff gays into the background of their Doctor who episodes.. just because they can.
John Watson has a lesbian sister now, why? ... just because.

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).

For the record, I follow a webcomic whose author is openly gay. And he has only two male homosexual characters in it (and no lesbians). The other characters who have romances are all straight male/female. Which ought to tell you something.

Going back to the original topic, why does romance and sexuality play so little part in the TMNT franchise, or at least did so in the old days? Because the show was aimed at children too young to have romantic interests. When I was a schoolboy, it was "boy germs/girl germs". Not until high school did I see boys and girls take a romantic interest in one another.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).

For the record, I follow a webcomic whose author is openly gay. And he has only two male homosexual characters in it (and no lesbians). The other characters who have romances are all straight male/female. Which ought to tell you something.

Going back to the original topic, why does romance and sexuality play so little part in the TMNT franchise, or at least did so in the old days? Because the show was aimed at children too young to have romantic interests. When I was a schoolboy, it was "boy germs/girl germs". Not until high school did I see boys and girls take a romantic interest in one another.

I liked the Donatello-Irma, Michelangelo-Kala/Buffy Shellhammer, Raphael-Ninjara clushes, as long as they stayed on a way for children, mostly comedy, and not was the major plot. Raphael-Ninjara was deeper, but still for children (actually Irma's humor was much more adult like in a sex-comedy).

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

If you're doing a story about a pygmy tribe, there is no reason to include any tall people.

You're right, what was I thinking. There aren't any gay people in New York City. Nor women. Or black people. How foolish of me.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Beside, these TMNT shows are filled with asien people any-way!

So that eliminates the race issue X)

Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Call it bigotry if you like, but I find the idea of stuffing gays (or African-Americans, or anyone else) into the story just for the sake of "diversity" rather childish. In the Doctor Who that I've seen, romance was rarely even covered, save for TARDIS companions leaving because of it (Jo Grant and Leela for example).

Really?
Maybe you need to see more. Rose and 9/10 was nothing but a love story. Also Madam du Pompadour. And Captain Jack Harkness? There's a lot of romantic storylines in Doctor Who, and they're a heck of a lot more diverse than most of mainstream American pop culture.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're right, what was I thinking. There aren't any gay people in New York City. Nor women. Or black people. How foolish of me.



Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...



Really?
Maybe you need to see more. Rose and 9/10 was nothing but a love story. Also Madam du Pompadour. And Captain Jack Harkness? There's a lot of romantic storylines in Doctor Who, and they're a heck of a lot more diverse than most of mainstream American pop culture.

Guess Doctor Who is different nowadays. But then, in 1963 it was a more child-oriented show about an alien who travels to different places and times and we see the past.

But the TMNT series does have women, blacks (Bebop in the OT, Baxter Stockman in Mirage)...well, is Vernon Fenwick supposed to be gay?

Racism in fact is a big problem in Asia as well. Japanese tend to dislike other Asians, and other Asians dislike Japanese even now. And after the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese started persecuting their ethnic Chinese, part of the reason it provoked a brief but brutal invasion from China itself.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Guess Doctor Who
Racism in fact is a big problem in Asia as well. Japanese tend to dislike other Asians, and other Asians dislike Japanese even now. And after the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese started persecuting their ethnic Chinese, part of the reason it provoked a brief but brutal invasion from China itself.

"Splinter No More" and "Shredderville" are the best racism-centered episodes. I Also like how Shredder, being from Japan, talks in the "Turtle Terminator" about being reduced to eat Chinese food.

[jaymq]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I remember Greg Weisman wanted Lexington to be gay in Gargoyles. Makes no sense as previous episodes showed him drooling over female Gargoyles.

Apparently self-discovery doesn't exist and everyone knows what they are the second they're hit puberty.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by moosandra

Apparently self-discovery doesn't exist and everyone knows what they are the second they're hit puberty.

Lexington was an adult Gargoyle though.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Yeah, as villains. And let's not forget the only major "good guy" character of color is changed into a rat. Because America hasn't had a problem with that in the past at all...

Ah ah, No! all characters including villains count when you talk diversity! In fact, having a black guy play a vital part as a villain is a good thing, because then he is a character whom just happens to be black.
There's nothing worse than a token "black guy." or "Girl." to be there just to be there because. They need to have a character that carries a function, and villains does that!

And that did all-ready happen! Stockman! it even happened twice, now we have Xever to!... all though he is a fish mutant now..

And it's not just the villains whom are asien.

If we take the 2k3 show, boy is there a load of asien good guys there!

There's Hamato Yoshi when we see him in flash backs, The ancient one, the high ninja tribunals, those warriors they fought with in that season. Karai is some-times kind of an anti-hero.

And don't ask me why.. but I always imagined that if the turtles were human, Leonardo would be asien in appearence...
And Raph would be latino, Mikey would be ginger and Donatello just ordinary western looking.. okay that's beside the point, they are turtles!

Then there is the newest 2k12 show. Where thus far.. the only good guys we actually have seen is.
The turtles, Splinter, April, Aprils dad, Leatherhead and.. Miyasaki I guess.. you know the noodle guy.

The turtles are turtles (though actually with a sort of more asien look to them than usual, in the still pictures their eyes is always a little askew as if they are asien, a nice little touch.)
Splinter whom is Japanes, leatherhead is an aligator.
April has always been a western looking new-yorker, so her dad would kind of be the same thing.
And Miyasaki is.. Asien.

So if we are going to do a head-count here we have two white people among our heroes and.. that's it.

Among our villains we have two, Bradford and Rockwell.... and neither of those are ordinary white people any-more any-ways. And I guess we have Snake-weed and Spiderbite to all though.. yeah, really doesn't matter what race they started out to be at this point.
The purple dragons looks like a group made out of diversity of both black, latino and asien looking people, so that's pretty neat.

So erhm.. no. No this new turtle show thus far has no problem in being a "white mans show."

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, the noodle guy's name is Murakami, and you forgot about Falco who's also white. And let's not forget Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe who is a mix of different races if his name is anything to go by.

And as for having gay people in fan fiction, I don't see the problem with it. It's not pandering, it's just a what if scenario that people want to expand on. Naturally, they aren't going to explore the idea in a kids show because that would make a lot of conservatives get angry and refuse to let their children watch the show. So, that's why we have fan fiction. It's there to explore different areas, and if someone wants to write about one of the Turtles being gay, they can. It doesn't automatically mean they're going to fall in love with their brother or anything. Anyone can create an OC that the Turtle in question could fall in love with.

I'm surprised people aren't getting mad about the Turtles being straight, pairing with a female human and reproducing with them. Personally, I don't see how it's possible, but stuff like that is out there. It may not be my cup of tea in certain instances, but I'm not being forced to read it, so I don't.

Same goes with Turtlecest. I don't see it happening without some sort of internal conflict going on as to why they would have these feelings and whether said feelings aren't wrong. But it's out there, and if you don't like it, don't read it. That's all there is to it.

[Jester]

What does it say about the state of "American Popular Culture" that voice actors like Kevin Michael Richardson and James Avery, both large black men, can play two athletically built Asian men? Or, since I'm watching Gargoyles, Cree Summer voicing a white cyborg chick with a weird attraction to machines?

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Uh, the noodle guy's name is Murakami, and you forgot about Falco who's also white. And let's not forget Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe who is a mix of different races if his name is anything to go by.

And as for having gay people in fan fiction, I don't see the problem with it. It's not pandering, it's just a what if scenario that people want to expand on. Naturally, they aren't going to explore the idea in a kids show because that would make a lot of conservatives get angry and refuse to let their children watch the show. So, that's why we have fan fiction. It's there to explore different areas, and if someone wants to write about one of the Turtles being gay, they can. It doesn't automatically mean they're going to fall in love with their brother or anything. Anyone can create an OC that the Turtle in question could fall in love with.

I'm surprised people aren't getting mad about the Turtles being straight, pairing with a female human and reproducing with them. Personally, I don't see how it's possible, but stuff like that is out there. It may not be my cup of tea in certain instances, but I'm not being forced to read it, so I don't.

Same goes with Turtlecest. I don't see it happening without some sort of internal conflict going on as to why they would have these feelings and whether said feelings aren't wrong. But it's out there, and if you don't like it, don't read it. That's all there is to it.

Well, fan fiction is fan fiction. Ever heard of Rule 34? (If it exists, there's porn of it.) There's stuff out there that would make even the strongest people here shudder.

As for sexuality in a kid's show, I don't think most people would consider it appropriate, and not just the conservatives.

[Candy Kappa]

oooh, this thread is a fun read.

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

Guess Doctor Who is different nowadays. But then, in 1963 it was a more child-oriented show about an alien who travels to different places and times and we see the past.

Even the first Doctor could get his groove on, the Aztec episodes for example. And he was a father once.

[Loudo]

Originally Posted by Type 97 Chi-ha

As for sexuality in a kid's show, I don't think most people would consider it appropriate, and not just the conservatives.

Of course you can't have sex scenes in a kids show. That doesn't mean you can't show relationships where it's implied sex is consumed.

Having gay characters in a kids show is appropriate. You deal with them the same way you deal with straight ones. And the same way you do in real life, actually. I'm sure you know the sexual orientation of most of your friends without watching them have sex.

[CyberCubed]

Have there ever been any gay characters in cartoons that aren't anime? And I mean confirmed, not fanfiction wishes.

[ToTheNines]

Captain Sawyer from Superman: TAS.

[Blossombrooks]

Pleakley from Lilo and Stitch, it wasn't 'confirmed' as in labeled (why would you in a kids show? Kids don't need labels) but yeah as the series and the films after that developed it was just accepted and obvious.