Karai=Miwa?

[BubblyShell22]

It's obvious Karai is Miwa as I feel that's an essential plot point in the rivalry. However, it'll be interesting to see how they find out the truth. I'm sure Splinter has suspicions already, and I can see why he would. I can't wait to see how this all unfolds.

[Zulithe]

Originally Posted by Shredded

I don't see how Shredder merely having a teenage girl in his employe makes any difference.

Well Splinter is supposed to be all wise and stuff. Heck I know I'd be considering it as soon as I heard about "Karai" -- a japanese female the same age as Miwa would have been and with ninja training (possibly even with a signature style that would indicate shredder himself tutored her). And I certainly don't think I'm as wise as Splinter would be if he actually existed in the real world and not just in kid's cartoon

I *love* TMNT, I don't care that it is targeted for kids, so I accept all of this. I just go with the flow

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by Zulithe

Well Splinter is supposed to be all wise and stuff. Heck I know I'd be considering it as soon as I heard about "Karai" -- a japanese female the same age as Miwa would have been and with ninja training (possibly even with a signature style that would indicate shredder himself tutored her). And I certainly don't think I'm as wise as Splinter would be if he actually existed in the real world and not just in kid's cartoon

I *love* TMNT, I don't care that it is targeted for kids, so I accept all of this. I just go with the flow

Oh me to, and I am absolutely and deeply in love with this show!
I think it's one of the best animated tely shows I have seen in a loooooong while!

I mean people have gone nuts over "Young Justice." last year and all I could say was. "Well.. it's oki, certainly not bad, but merely okay really."
This is way better in my mind, I love it so much, I am in love with this thing!

Legend of Korra is the most beautiful animated show I have ever seen in tely but.. the pacing was to flawed for me to call it the perfect show, it had a lot of hiccups, still a really good show though, but far more flawed than this.

And if we backtrack from that.. what do I really have in recent stand-out animated show? urh... the last one being this good, I think, is Teen Titans, and that's kind of an old show around now.

Unlike so many else, I do not want this show to be more complicated than it needs to be, and I don't want it to be darker or any-thing like that. I like it just as it is! as a fun, straight-forward action adventure.

I really think our current work lacks that in hollywood. They always try so hard to be "Dark." and "Gritty." and "Realistic." and "Twisted." ext.. when honestly, all I need for the most part is just a good oll fashioned good time, with a likeable hero, a cool villain and some neat action scenes with a straight-forward engaging plot, done buisness.

That's why I liked Avengers so much last summer, yeah the plot was simple and straight forward, it was merely. "Good guys vs. Evil guy." but that's all we needed, we don't need to make every-thing "Christopher Nolans Batman."

Honestly.. over complicating stuff does not make it better at all! and it's a classical error many writers make, thinking as long as it's complicated it's good. no, then rather keep it simple.
When I work with new first time script writers, they often make that same mistake of writing it so confused and complicated that it's not at all engaging or understanable for the audience, simplicity, is really the greatest key when writing a story, sketch or play.

And yeah, Splinter is wise and stuff.. but again, Shredder merely having a teeange girl approximately miwas age in his employment, makes little difference, Shredder has a massive force of ninjas, that most of them are young and some of them female only makes sense.

How-ever! the exact moment the turtles finds out she is the Shredders daughter, (which hasn't happened yet.) Then the ball will start roling I assure you, then would be the time to start suspecting and things unravel.

Yeah, we the audience all-ready know she is Miwa, because we can look at the plot point as an audience would, we can piece this together and say. "This bit of information is only there because it will matter later."
How-ever, the characters within the show havn't gotten that far yet, they need to catch up with us.

But they will figure out soonish, and it will be messy. and I can't wait to see how that will unfold!

[Coola Yagami]

Naw... it's too suspicious. Out of all of the faceless nameless mooks, Leo just happens to fight a teenage female with an actual name and some sort of status over the regular Foot. Splinter should still sense something there. It woulda been easily dismissed if Leo fell for random female Foot Ninja # 45, but this teenage girl Karai somewhere in Shredder's top ranks should raise some sort of suspicion.

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Out of all of the faceless nameless mooks, Leo just happens to fight a teenage female with an actual name and some sort of status over the regular Foot. Splinter should still sense something there. It woulda been easily dismissed if Leo fell for random female Foot Ninja # 45, but this teenage girl Karai somewhere in Shredder's top ranks should raise some sort of suspicion.

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself, pal. Splinter just found out about Karai, and he hasn't had much time to process this new information. Keep in mind that she isn't the first of Shredder's big-name henchment to encounter the Turtles. When you think about it, Leo's situation with Karai is similar to Mikey's with "Rad Brad" earlier in the season.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Shredded

But that is pretty much whom he is isn't it?

Just sir "No one is as evil as me! bwahaha!"

No; not exactly, or he would have just killed Miwa/Karai.

Originally Posted by Shredded

I guess we should leave the conflicted multi dimensional antagonists to the other villains.

Why?

Originally Posted by Shredded

And yeah, thus far that would be the villains with more dimensions to them than just being evil. But hey, it's a kids show, they can't all be conflicted,

Yes they could; easily; that kid show villains aren't is a big deficiency with them.

Originally Posted by Shredded

and some-times it's actually really nice having a badass villain whom is just evil,

No it's not. That's stupid and with Shredder being the chief antagonist, will only make me grow sick of him the way I did in the 2003 series. All characters can be improved with depth, and if done right that doesn't undermine how threatening they are. The really scary guys in the real world are the types who think they're doing right when they commit mass murder; let's have some more of them in fiction. Straight greed and anger are boring.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

No; not exactly, or he would have just killed Miwa/Karai.



Why?



Yes they could; easily; that kid show villains aren't is a big deficiency with them.



No it's not. That's stupid and with Shredder being the chief antagonist, will only make me grow sick of him the way I did in the 2003 series. All characters can be improved with depth, and if done right that doesn't undermine how threatening they are. The really scary guys in the real world are the types who think they're doing right when they commit mass murder; let's have some more of them in fiction. Straight greed and anger are boring.

The Joker doesn't seem very conflicted about what he is doing and he is one of the most awesome villains ever made!

Look, there are two kinds of awesome villains.

The kind where you actually are able to put yourself in their place and see exactly where they are coming from, which makes them conflicted and sort of like an anti hero some-times, whom just happens to fight for the wrong thing.

Javert From Les Mirable, Captain Ahab from Moby dick, Doctor Frankenstein, Judge Frolo from Hunchback of Notredame, Lotso from Toy Story 3 and the list goes on.

Amazing villains where you truly feel for them, and you are able to sort of see what they see. Where they see themselves as the good guy, not even realisng they are caught in their own obsession and is doomed to failure.

And then there is the villains whom are just evil. but is a lot of fun regardless, serving their role as great adversary, scarring the hell out of us, and being a lot of fun fighting!

Professor Moriarty, Ratigan from Basil of Bakerstreet, Hades from Hercules, the Joker from Batman, the Riddler also from Batman, Sauron from the lord of the rings, Lord Voldemort...

The difference to me between these two kinds of villains are that the more complex ones often (not always.) appears in more complex multi layered works.
While the just evil people, may be less complex.. but are much more fun! and belong in more fun works!

Negaduck gotta be one of the most evil dudes I have ever seen, he just revels in his own evil, but god dammit is he entertaining with his beloved chainsaw in hand!

Ratigan as well.. man is he fun every single second he is on screen.

Azula from avatar the last airbender, she's pure evil, but dangit that makes her Scary. Slade as well from Teen Titans, that he just is "Sir evil." is what makes him scary.

And when the story does not call for more, there's nothing wrong with it not being more.

What I is most important with any villain, is that he and her must be what the story calls for.

This story calls for that the Shredder needs to be threatening! we ought to be scared by him along-side the turtles.
He needs to be scary to ninja masters, and he needs to be very intimidating.

That in itself, is tough to pull off.

They could have elected to make him love Karai, as in genuinly love her, and I thought that was what they were going to go with before I saw her first episode, as I also thought it would add more complexity to what is going to happen.
But it seems clear to me now, that they didn't.. but yet I can't really mind that much at all, instead of adding complexity, it adds to how cold this Shredder is, and that's not neccesarily bad.
Because he is very bad-ass, he is very intimidating, I want to see more of him, and thus it's a job pulled very well off.
The fact that he doesn't care and doesn't have mercy, if done right, adds to the intimidating factor, it sends a signal that this dude actually would go ahead and do nasty evil things without hesitation, and when done right, that is scary, it's kind of badass.

Is it an oppertunity wasted? perhaps.. if you were ever going to give this Shredder a little more depht, his relationship with Karai would have been your most perfect chance ever, there wont be another chance like that. But they didn't go for it, and I don't mind, then it doesn't become to bitter-sweet he finally goes down, and it'll be a lot of fun.

Also we don't have to suffer through all of that. "This Is not what I wanted Leonardo, now I must take on the mantle of the Shredder." crap we had to go through with the 2k3 show where Karai seemed like she couldn't make up her mind about what the freak she actually wanted!

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Shredded

The Joker doesn't seem very conflicted about what he is doing and he is one of the most awesome villains ever made!

The Joker works better than most villains who are evil for no apparent reason because unlike them, he is actually visibly having fun with it--except for Heath Ledger's joker, whom I find incredibly overrated. Also, sure killing people for fun is incredibly evil, but the Joker does have other personality traits besides evil. He actually makes jokes that don't harm anyone and is occasionally an amusing guy for his allies to hang out with. Most shallow, motivation-less, scary villains, however, never seem pleased even when they accomplish evil, and never smile even in an evil way. That's not awesome, it's minimalist.

Originally Posted by Shredded

And then there is the villains whom are just evil. but is a lot of fun regardless, serving their role as great adversary, scarring the hell out of us, and being a lot of fun fighting!

I have a hard time being scared of any villain in a kids' cartoon, so that's not much of an option here. And again, none of that would be undermined by giving a villain depth. A villain who has what he views as a noble motivation can still be a horrifying murderer and a good fighter.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Professor Moriarty

Not a big classic literature person, so I can't comment.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Ratigan from Basil of Bakerstreet

Same as Joker. Still more the exception than the rule, though.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Hades from Hercules,

I'll be the first to admit I hate Hades. Nothing but anachronism, loud, in-your-face attitude, and catch-phrases. Take the "evil" part away and he's just your typical 1990s cartoon character. I find the whole decade's sense of humor to be very overrated.

Originally Posted by Shredded

the Riddler also from Batman,

Wait; the Riddler is scary or fun to watch? Since when? I thought he was a just a duller version of the Joker, in both regards.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Sauron from the lord of the rings, Lord Voldemort...

See my response to Moriarty.

Originally Posted by Shredded

While the just evil people, may be less complex.. but are much more fun! and belong in more fun works!

Negaduck gotta be one of the most evil dudes I have ever seen, he just revels in his own evil, but god dammit is he entertaining with his beloved chainsaw in hand!

Ratigan as well.. man is he fun every single second he is on screen.

See, the Shredder from the first TMNT cartoon would fit that bill. He's funny, and his megalomania manifests itself in the form of goofy inventions, and he makes jokes. But this Shredder isn't like that. He's more like Ch'rel, whom I thoroughly despise. This show's "fun," as you describe it, really doesn't extend to the villains.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Azula from avatar the last airbender, she's pure evil, but dangit that makes her Scary. Slade as well from Teen Titans, that he just is "Sir evil." is what makes him scary.

Slade has more depth than that, and once again, grow up; cartoons aren't scary and if you want that watch a monster movie. Let sentient lifeforms be sentient.

Originally Posted by Shredded

And when the story does not call for more, there's nothing wrong with it not being more.

Maybe, but there's nothing right with it, either.

Originally Posted by Shredded

What I is most important with any villain, is that he and her must be what the story calls for.

Obviously that's the most important thing, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only thing. Truly great works go above and beyond what is required.

Originally Posted by Shredded

This story calls for that the Shredder needs to be threatening! we ought to be scared by him along-side the turtles.
He needs to be scary to ninja masters, and he needs to be very intimidating.

That in itself, is tough to pull off.

Bullcrap. Anyone can write an intimidating character. Of course, you need to put him in the show more often and have him be a constant threat, which narrows down the focus, but it's not hard to do if that is your intent.

Originally Posted by Shredded

They could have elected to make him love Karai, as in genuinly love her, and I thought that was what they were going to go with before I saw her first episode, as I also thought it would add more complexity to what is going to happen.
But it seems clear to me now, that they didn't.. but yet I can't really mind that much at all, instead of adding complexity, it adds to how cold this Shredder is, and that's not neccesarily bad.
Because he is very bad-ass, he is very intimidating, I want to see more of him, and thus it's a job pulled very well off.
The fact that he doesn't care and doesn't have mercy, if done right, adds to the intimidating factor, it sends a signal that this dude actually would go ahead and do nasty evil things without hesitation, and when done right, that is scary, it's kind of badass.

Is it an oppertunity wasted? perhaps.. if you were ever going to give this Shredder a little more depht, his relationship with Karai would have been your most perfect chance ever, there wont be another chance like that. But they didn't go for it, and I don't mind, then it doesn't become to bitter-sweet he finally goes down, and it'll be a lot of fun.

The problem, though, is that he might not go down at all. However horrendous a person the Shredder is, the heroes won't give him the death he deserves because of the stupid Kantian morality demanded of cartoons, or if they do they'll just bring him back because the writers think a shallow villain is the best for a constant nemesis. (Really, the whole idea of a nemesis is stupid.) Having a truly wicked villain, for me, requires that he get a truly wicked end. Something like this, though hopefully more well-done. In the long run, though, you can't really have either in a kids' show. You need more gore and more length.

Originally Posted by Shredded

Also we don't have to suffer through all of that. "This Is not what I wanted Leonardo, now I must take on the mantle of the Shredder." crap we had to go through with the 2k3 show where Karai seemed like she couldn't make up her mind about what the freak she actually wanted!

You effectively debunked your own point, considering what a pure evil shallow crap-villain Ch'rel was, which is precisely why Karai looked stupider and stupider for being loyal to him. Why expect things to be different here, if the villain is the same? If it's because Karai seems different, then valid point, but that wasn't what you seemed to be implying.

At any rate, we are probably going to have to agree to disagree until we meet in an alley with katanas, here. I admit that I really do not like large hams--good or evil--nearly as much as most people seem to, so I don't like over the top villains and I'm not a big fan of Michelangelo, either. I prefer my literature subtle and intellectual, and I absolutely will not buy that this necessarily undermines any emotional punch. The Matrix had a strong intellectual side, and it still had plenty of scary imagery and great action. I realize that attempts to imitate this standard (including those by the extended Matrix franchise itself) often wound up creating a lot of pretentious, emo drivel that made me wish for action films more like the Street Fighter movie with Jean Claude Van Damme, but nowadays Marvel's films show me we've arrived at a happy medium.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

The amount of violence in TMNT is abundant compared to other toons, so it's not just a "kids show" per say.

No, it pretty much is.

[Konchadunga]

Violence isn't considered very adult in America.

[Shredded]

*Konchadunga

going to be a long post and am going to answer sort of randomely.

I thought Slade was scary, admittedly I let him scare me, it was not like I was crying in fear or any-thing, but I let myself be intimidated... also it's a kids show, it's not Moby Dick (all though that's a great book and you should read it.)
... how does Slade have more dimensions? what did he ever do that gave him more dimensions? he manipulated Terra and turned her against her friends, even took over her body.. which is almost body rape.
When he teamed up with the Titans in the Trigon arch, it was only because it benifitted him at that very moment in time, he just does what benefits him the most in any given moment. And that's a scary man I can allow myself being inimidated by when he mind-rapes Robin so Robin but no one else can see him in the dark.

Same way I let myself be intimidated by the Daleks (creatures of pure evil btw.) when they appear in Doctor who.. most of the time.. when the directing and writing is good enough.

Uh, be careful what you say about the Riddler on the enternet! Just a fair warning, there are loads of people whom will defend the riddler and love him to the bitter end!
And back in time in the sixties the Riddler was actually bigger than the joker for a while due to Frank Gorshins portrayal of him back in the sixties Batman seriel, where he surpassed the joker by far in popularity.

What you think about him, that's your own deal, I think he has his merits and some interesting interpretations along the way, and I would like to see him hit the limp-light again eventually, with perhaps a new more different presentation, I like to think of him as being slightly more sophisticated than the joker.

You don't need to be a litterary person to know whom Sauron or Lord voldemort is, they actually made movies about that. Some consider them the biggest most influencial fantasy movies ever made that shaped the way we make blockbuster movies today. Lord of the rings you might heard of those?
Moriarty also appears in several movies, he is Sherlock Holmes's arch nemesis you know.
But reading doesn't hurt either, it's nice sitting down with a good book ones in a while.... and thanks for telling me to grow up in the same post where you freely admit that I have probably read more books than you have.

And well.... the main function of an antagonist is to be the best possible obstacle for the protagonist. Whether the author choose to make the antagonist sympathetic or not, is really up to them.

I've just saw Django unchained.. wauw.. that antagonist was a despisable person! I mean, you hated being in the same room with that guy!
but he was intended to be that way, and in this situation it worked, it was satisfactory to see him finally get a knife to the stomach.

A villain always need to be well-written and well represented! a hero is never ever any better than the villain, the more difficult it seems to take the villain down the better.
And Shredder looks like a difficult tough adversary, that's his main job, so codus to that. Good villains are damn important, it has to look difficult to beat them. Other-wise they are effectless!
He is the obstacle that must be over-come, the tougher the obstacle the better.
The person we are really supposed to feel with and go on an emotional journey with, is the protagonist, which in this case, is the four turtles, every-one else in this univers only exists to serve the turtles journey in life.



What the problem with 2k3 Karai mostly was for me, was that she was entirely inconsistent.

The conflicted character that goes on a soul journey and is torned between two sides, is often the most interesting character, when written well.

Zuko in avatar the last airbender. (I assume you know who he is since you know whom Azula are.)
Is an amazing character in that regard, he starts out bad, goes on a soul journey where he learns and changes, commit mistakes and ends up a new re-born person.

Here's the thing though, with Zuko, I by all times get his actions and why he does what he does, even his mistakes I get. I get what he want, I even get "What he thinks he wants, and what he actually wants but don't know he wants yet."
his emotional journey is linear, and I get it! .. Also his dad is kind of all evil and the main protagonist, just to give you another "Entirely evil." person from a good animated show.

With Karai, her journey were at first linear, and I got it, she was a person whom genuinly loved the shredder, and wanted to honour him. how-ever, being a person of such great honour, what the Shredder often ended up asking of her didn't fit with her own honour codex, and thus she was conflicted.
I thought it was pretty straight forward, Karai was a good person still standing in Shredders shadow, whom needed to learn how to life by her own honour rules, I thought that she deep down knew that Shredder was evil, and her journey was to become that person whom could actually restore honour back into the foot clan.
I exspected her to be sad and bitter about her fathers defeat, but I also thought she knew why it had to happen.
Then the end of season three come and she went. "This is not what I wanted Leonardo, this is not what I wanted."
... erh.. Karai what did you exspect? For the Shredder to make ammends and make the Utrons apologetic cookies?
What happened after that, didn't seem to fit at all with her character growth, and I didn't get her any-more, she also seemed to swap in and out, according to what the writers needed today, no real consistency, no real journey, I had no idea what she wanted or where she stood.

[Slade]

I'm leaning more towards this, and Im sure since she called Shredder father it will be true, but I don't like it. Don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I feel this would ruin Karai's character in this version.


Unless there's a "real" Karai still in Japan or something.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Eh, I'm ok with it.

The question is even if that tidbit is out of the open, will Karai change (I'm under the impression she honestly loves and enjoys being a bad guy)? Will the Turtles change? An so on.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, I think it's a great twist to the story and something completely different than other incarnations.

As for her character, it depends. If she finds out the truth, she could be conflicted as to who is really her father as she's been raised by Shredder and fed lies by him yet Splinter is her real father. Either that, or she'll continue to be a bad guy and turn on Splinter due to what she's been told by Shredder. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

[Atren]

Assuming Miwa and Karai are one and the same which seems very likely.

One option would be if instead of lies Shredder has told her truth, just presenting all the facts from his point of view. That would make things a lot more complicated as it then becomes subjective question whom she going to believe.

[Machias Banshee]

After nearly 20 years of being raised and taught to hate a man by your close family, it's going to take nothing short of Shredder disowning her or trying to kill her to make her see the truth...

[ToTheNines]

I can't seem to find the post or remember who pointed this out earlier today, but I was intrigued to learn that in The Alien Agenda when Leo said "there's good in her!" there's a clear shot of Splinter's old family over his shoulder.

I'll have to rewatch sometime soon and confirm.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Machias Banshee

After nearly 20 years of being raised and taught to hate a man by your close family, it's going to take nothing short of Shredder disowning her or trying to kill her to make her see the truth...

Well he DID put a blade to her neck that one time, and he is kind of an ass to her most of the time. It's too soon to say what Karai actually thinks of Saki as a father figure, but for some reason I don't think fear and intimidation is the best way to go about raising a child.

[Jester]

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Jester

So what exactly are you hinting at with this awesome clip?