April and her development

[BubblyShell22]

Originally Posted by Doom Cookie

A Canon Sue is a Mary Sue that's written in by the actual creator (or in this case, the writers who inherited the rights to the story). It has all the traits of a Mary Sue, but at least is masturbation via your own work rather than via fanfiction. It doesn't bother me nearly as much, probably because they do tell you to write what you know.



I really respect you for being willing to read other people's Mary Sues, and being so openminded about the subject in general. That's an admirable lack of prejudice in my mind. I wish I could be more like you!

Oh, believe me, I don't like all Mary Sues, but I do believe that some Mary Sues can be written well as long as the writer takes time to develop the character. The author just kept calling her character a Mary Sue, but I didn't really see any detestable Sue like qualities within said character, so that's why I was willing to read it. There are a lot of OCs I can't tolerate.

Sometimes I'm reluctant to even write OCs myself, but I do because I like to add them when I can. If people hate them, fine. If people like them, then great. But then again, I always give my characters flaws, and April definitely has flaws herself. A Mary Sue is a perfect character who has no flaws, steals the spotlight, and basically is mostly a self-insert so the writer can fulfill their fantasies with whatever Turtle they're in love with. April has more to her than that, and she's far from perfect, too.

But that's just my two cents, and I know someone else already stated it, but I thought I'd chime in.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

I should state, in case I sound too superior, that I do end up with a Mary Sue for most series I'm interested in. The distinction is that I'd rather die than let anyone else read the fic.

[Konchadunga]

An OC isn't necessarily a Mary Sue, but in my opinion, the more a fanfiction is about an OC, the less it's really a fanfiction. If you're writing a fanfic all about your original character, at some point you should pause and ask yourself, "why is this a fanfiction; why not make it an original story? Is it just because without famous characters, nobody would read it because nobody else cares about my original character?" I'm not pointing the finger and saying everybody has that motive, but it's worth humility to reflect on what you want and what they want.

I am writing a fanfiction, and people love it, and if they didn't love it, I wouldn't keep writing, and when I get critiques, I try to address them. There are original characters, but they're all either villains or bit parts; the story isn't about them, and they exist for the canon protagonists to play off of; not vice versa. A fanfiction is for the fans; I don't buy into the pretentious indie claim that true art is only for oneself. People sink into nihilism and mediocrity too often when they think that; artists should care what others think of their art.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

You're correct, and that's a distinction I totally forgot: There are OCs that aren't Mary Sues. However, I'd say that most of what's labeled OC is, in fact, MS. If the OC is created out of necessity to progress the story (e.g. the pizza delivery guy if the story is about the turtles eating so much pizza that they explode), that's one thing. If the story exists to progress the OC, that's an MS whether the actual OC bears any resemblance to the author or not.

Tl;dr: Get your "Raph is so in love with my OC he can't control himself and passionately rapes her" off my f***ing Internet/planet/M-brane/plane of existence.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

An OC isn't necessarily a Mary Sue, but in my opinion, the more a fanfiction is about an OC, the less it's really a fanfiction. If you're writing a fanfic all about your original character, at some point you should pause and ask yourself, "why is this a fanfiction; why not make it an original story? Is it just because without famous characters, nobody would read it because nobody else cares about my original character?" I'm not pointing the finger and saying everybody has that motive, but it's worth humility to reflect on what you want and what they want.

I am writing a fanfiction, and people love it, and if they didn't love it, I wouldn't keep writing, and when I get critiques, I try to address them. There are original characters, but they're all either villains or bit parts; the story isn't about them, and they exist for the canon protagonists to play off of; not vice versa. A fanfiction is for the fans; I don't buy into the pretentious indie claim that true art is only for oneself. People sink into nihilism and mediocrity too often when they think that; artists should care what others think of their art.

How very true. I write mostly for myself, but I also certainly DO care what others think of my work as well. My own OC might be considered a Mary Sue in some respects, but is hardly as good as the NT, nor has any "special" abilities. She's just a girl who got thrown into the mix, and had to learn to adapt- with the added incentive of seeking justice. The only real Sue-ish trait I can think of is her love-interest aspect with one of them.

I think this version of April is walking the line of a Canon/Mary Sue, but only in the "abilities" she has started to show. I disagree completely that the 2007 April's level of skill was ridiculous, as it was based mostly on the 2K3 April (not the one from the first three movies- she NEVER had any training.) so it makes sense that after Leo left- remember, in 2K3 she started training in the first few seasons, and he was gone for over a YEAR- by the time he came back, she would have gotten quite good. Hardly a Mary sue there. But then, she had been around them for a long time, was considered family, and as others pointed out, NOT learning to defend herself would have been pretty dumb with her level of involvement with them.

[PApagreg]

I disagree completely that the 2007 April's level of skill was ridiculous, as it was based mostly on the 2K3 April (not the one from the first three movies- she NEVER had any training.) so it makes sense that after Leo left- remember, in 2K3 she started training in the first few seasons, and he was gone for over a YEAR- by the time he came back, she would have gotten quite good. Hardly a Mary sue there. But then, she had been around them for a long time, was considered family, and as others pointed out, NOT learning to defend herself would have been pretty dumb with her level of involvement with them.[/QUOTE]

It was more of the lines of her beating Karai that was far fetched also 2k3 April beat Silver Sentry in arm wrestling

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

I disagree completely that the 2007 April's level of skill was ridiculous, as it was based mostly on the 2K3 April (not the one from the first three movies- she NEVER had any training.) so it makes sense that after Leo left- remember, in 2K3 she started training in the first few seasons, and he was gone for over a YEAR- by the time he came back, she would have gotten quite good. Hardly a Mary sue there. But then, she had been around them for a long time, was considered family, and as others pointed out, NOT learning to defend herself would have been pretty dumb with her level of involvement with them.

It was more of the lines of her beating Karai that was far fetched also 2k3 April beat Silver Sentry in arm wrestling

lol XD she bribed him with cookies so she could win XD

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

April and Her Bra Size.

There's not much development going on there... she looks 12.

[Konchadunga]

Worth noting that if Nick April is a Mary Sue, she's not a very big one by TMNT standards. Venus ticks off every Mary Sue box so hard, it's amazing she was written before widespread Internet use made them infamous. Zack was also in that territory, as he was able to best the villains for no other apparent reason than being an eager young fanboy. (Note: I'm really getting sick of that type of character. I yearn to see a cartoon where his or her hedonistic, cocky eagerness gets him or her killed.). Agatha Oniel is a horrendous Mary Sue. That kid in TMNT2, whose name I can't even remember, was, if not a Mary Sue, completely arbitrary, and apparently Vanilla Ice was originally supposed to be the Sue of the movie. Cody was, if not competent, at least a bit too plot-centric. You could even argue Shredder is kind of a Sue, since he went from a one-off to essentially immortal in most incarnations. (And literally in one.)

2012 April is tough, but I'm reasonably certain that after her past is revealed, which probably isn't too far off, now, not many more plots will be devoted to revealing her mysterious abilities. At the very least, I prefer for April to have some powers when she's not quite human, to her being a normal human who's not quite human because, well, um...why? I have to hand it to Nick for taking a lemon and making lemonade.

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

There's not much development going on there... she looks 12.

I looked 12 when I was 16........it's not rare XD some people just age slower.

[Konchadunga]

I looked 19 when I was 16, which for me meant I already had my totally rad mustache!

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Doom Cookie

I think she's very Canon Sue on a whole in the sense that she's exactly the kind of character that most girls would write as a Mary Sue. Someone might pick a different turtle to bone (or all of them), but all the hallmarks are there:

-Love interest with an attractive character
-Strong, good-looking, independent (Red hair and blue eyes is classic Mary Sue, but I'll give them a pass since the original April was a redhead.)
-Plays "hard to get" with love interest
-Latent powers (as you mentioned) and/or gets to do the same cool stuff as the main chars (Splinter training her)
-Another female character gets jealous of her (Did anyone else notice that with Karai?)

Uh... that's not a canon sue.

a mary sue is a character (mostly female but there ARE male canon sues) who is so beautiful that's her entire trait, so kind and wondrous she can solve world problems, is hated by no one and everyone wants to be her friend that when the sue causes problems, they never considered it her fault and more of an honor getting her out of those situations. Oh, and the story and characters revolves around her. We don't know why people think she's special. We don't know why her friends think she's awesome. We don't know why her boyfriend think she's specifically created for him. She just is, and the audience just had to settle with that.

It's not a girl thing btw. There are instances there are male canon sues (Wesley from Star Trek, he always saves the day). Even the villains can be called "sues" when the writer's overdoing it (coughSasukecough).

Unfortunately, people DO get scared off making OCs because it's automatically viewed as "sues", but they project that bad writing and short sightedness on their favorite canon characters instead. (Example: go to an Avatar the Last Airbender section in ffnet. Read 20 zutara fanfictions. Most often than not the authors is way off the mark with both Zuko and Katara's characters and/or libido in the cartoon, not to mention their powers in fanfics makes Aang's look... ridiculous).

[drgon78]

April doesn't look twelve, she looks like she has at least a B cup. Maybe she will be a C cup by next season, then her character will be more "developed" so everyone will stop complaining.

[Konchadunga]

I think the term, Mary Sue has evolved somewhat, even if that was its original meaning. Even then, the parody-fic that spawned it also gave her high abilities.

I agree with you about ruining canon-characters instead, though; it's no better and only makes me madder that an author tricked me into reading their crap. April may not be a Sue, but I'm sure that many fics make her one. I've resolved that even when I write fanfiction about an underappreciated character (and I plan to) she's not going to be a Sue.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

Uh... that's not a canon sue.

A Mary/Canon Sue/Stu is any character based on the author/artist/whatever, however loosely, that's inserted into the work for the purpose of giving the author gratification. It doesn't matter whether it's the archetypical "sweet, kind, beautiful, and powerful" MS or exponentially more complex, i.e. flawed.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I had a hard time identifying April a sue when she's underused as a character.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Doom Cookie

A Mary/Canon Sue/Stu is any character based on the author/artist/whatever, however loosely, that's inserted into the work for the purpose of giving the author gratification. It doesn't matter whether it's the archetypical "sweet, kind, beautiful, and powerful" MS or exponentially more complex, i.e. flawed.

I'm gonna need to see some documents for that, sir.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

So yeah, I have to admit that I'm not seeing any documentation that actually supports my point. It seens I've been wrong about the strict definition of a MS/CS. Sorry. And mind blown.

Still don't want to see anyone's...what do we call this, a self-based OC?...have relations with the turtles, but it's a free Internet, so whatever?

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Doom Cookie

So yeah, I have to admit that I'm not seeing any documentation that actually supports my point. It seens I've been wrong about the strict definition of a MS/CS. Sorry. And mind blown.

Still don't want to see anyone's...what do we call this, a self-based OC?...have relations with the turtles, but it's a free Internet, so whatever?

"Author-Avatar" seems to be the widely accepted term. I've also heard "self-insert". Note that some of these characters aren't pretty, or talented, or a love interest, but just there for the author to get his views out. I can think of a particularly obnoxious fanfiction writer, who in nearly every fanfiction he wrote, had some character spout his own political views; even if there was hardly any reason to do so in the story, but I'm not going to name him. Of course, this isn't limited to fanfiction, either. Science Fiction is so full of it, you'd think the genre was Congress.

[Captain PunchYouHard]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

"Author-Avatar" seems to be the widely accepted term. I've also heard "self-insert". Note that some of these characters aren't pretty, or talented, or a love interest, but just there for the author to get his views out. I can think of a particularly obnoxious fanfiction writer, who in nearly every fanfiction he wrote, had some character spout his own political views; even if there was hardly any reason to do so in the story, but I'm not going to name him. Of course, this isn't limited to fanfiction, either. Science Fiction is so full of it, you'd think the genre was Congress.

Heinlein. For Us, The Living is like an essay someone wrote for their economics class while extremely stoned.