Did the 2012 succeed more than the 2K3 cause it gave fans 'what they wanted?'

[Leo656]

Yeah, really. The pizza obsession and "Goofy for the sake of Being Goofy" is really all there is as far as similarity. The "throwback" characters all look and act entirely different.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, really. The pizza obsession and "Goofy for the sake of Being Goofy" is really all there is as far as similarity. The "throwback" characters all look and act entirely different.

And the difference is the OT was more parody goofy with the 4th wall breaking and crazy plotlines, whereas the Nick show is goofy in terms of visual humor and silly villains with the Kraang.

[chrisdude]

I'm gonna say that the Nick show does give fans what they want, based solely on the amount of people who are happy about it. Seems fair to me. Yeah, being on Nickelodeon helps to an extent. But really, I think it's more important that people actually like it. Kids like it, and adults are, at least, pleasantly surprised. Parents are watching it with their kids. The show has been well-received across the board, even if a few people here don't dig it. And, honestly, the fact that only a few people here hate it is about the highest praise the show could get.

But, I also submit to you all the possibility that the OT is just more likeable than Mirage, and adapted/recycled elements of the former will beat out the latter every time.

And this movie's gonna be huge.

[Jester]

Can I go on the record as saying "It's too early to say if it 'succeeded' in giving fans 'what they want' because we're only 1 season and 1 episode in."?

I mean, everyone's crying about the "Mutant of the Week" style story telling, but so far all we've seen is 1 episode with a mutated Kirby. Next episode will have the Squirrelinoids (or what ever) and outside of that we have Ice Cream Kitty, Pizza Face, Mutagen Man (does he count...he was from last season) and maybe 1 or two other NEW mutants that we know of...and this is over a 26 episode season.

I really think all the doom and gloom of some people is premature.

[CyberCubed]

There's also Slash, Tiger Claw and others. The whole theme of the season is finding mutagen containers. It's going to be loaded with mutants

[Electric]

That's just the angle this series seems to be taking, making the mutagen and kraang a recurring prevalent plot. This could continue successfully for awhile, or maybe they'll change it after season 2, who knows

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by Jester

Can I go on the record as saying "It's too early to say if it 'succeeded' in giving fans 'what they want' because we're only 1 season and 1 episode in."?

I mean, everyone's crying about the "Mutant of the Week" style story telling, but so far all we've seen is 1 episode with a mutated Kirby. Next episode will have the Squirrelinoids (or what ever) and outside of that we have Ice Cream Kitty, Pizza Face, Mutagen Man (does he count...he was from last season) and maybe 1 or two other NEW mutants that we know of...and this is over a 26 episode season.

I really think all the doom and gloom of some people is premature.

I wouldn't say it's "doom and gloom" its more or less significant disappointment, because in the first season we had substantial backstories of Xever, Bradford, and Baxter and after seeing those episodes, it actually raised my expectations for the series when I was initially indifferent to it. I was especially impressed with "Baxter's Gambit" when the writers were able to create a scenario to make Xever (Fishface) and Raph form a temporary truce/bond, and in "Never Say Xever" with Leo's mercy toward Xever, and in the process, having their characters relate to each other.

I thought the series was establishing this level of depth in the series, but about 2/3 - 3/4 of the 1st season, that level of writing seems to have gone aside. Most the excitement of the show now, is based on the whole April and Don relationship, what unexpected mutants we will get, and Mikey's randomness.

It just seems that most of the mutants we get now (Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Justin, Spyroach, Timothy/Mutagen Man, Wasp Mutants, Newtralizer, and the Squirrel mutant in the next episode possibly) don't have that backstory like Xever and Bradford had, or are not sentient beings at all. (As for Kirby's recent mutation, his character could have had some importance outside of mutating him though.) Despite my criticism of the "mutant of the week" within this series, I keep wondering and/or hoping these mutants will show that backstory or that there's a broader, more meaningful arc going on here that would give a reason as to why there's such a rush to have so many mutants so early in the series, rather than the series seemingly trying to impress us on what animal or object can be mutated.


I'm hoping, hoping... again, that maybe with April going on her own now without the Turtles, that maybe it could expand on her life outside of the Turtles with Irma and Casey, and give depth to April's character that way.

I wouldn't be complaining about the series if I didn't sense the series had the potential to take the storywriting to a deeper level, which it did back in the beginning 2/3 of the first season, but now it seems the series is regressing away from that depth, as I mentioned before.

...Then again, maybe I should start lowering my expectations of this series so I won't feel so disappointed...

[Electric]

Originally Posted by JYX

I wouldn't say it's "doom and gloom" its more or less significant disappointment, because in the first season we had substantial backstories of Xever, Bradford, and Baxter and after seeing those episodes, it actually raised my expectations for the series when I was initially indifferent to it. I was especially impressed with "Baxter's Gambit" when the writers were able to create a scenario to make Xever (Fishface) and Raph form a temporary truce/bond, and in the process, having their characters relate to each other.

I thought the series was establishing this level of depth in the series, but about 2/3 - 3/4 of the 1st season, that level of writing seems to have gone aside. Most the excitement of the show now, is based on the whole April and Don relationship, what unexpected mutants we will get, and Mikey's randomness.

It just seems that most of the mutants we get now (Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Justin, Spyroach, Timothy/Mutagen Man, Wasp Mutants, Newtralizer, and the Squirrel mutant in the next episode possibly) don't have that backstory like Xever and Bradford had, or are not sentient beings at all. (As for Kirby's recent mutation, his character could have had some importance outside of mutating him though.) Despite my criticism of the "mutant of the week" within this series, I keep wondering and/or hoping these mutants will show that backstory or that there's a broader, more meaningful arc going on here that would give a reason as to why there's such a rush to have so many mutants so early in the series, rather than the series seemingly trying to impress us on what animal or object can be mutated.


I'm hoping, hoping... again, that maybe with April going on her own now without the Turtles, that maybe it could expand on her life outside of the Turtles with Irma and Casey, and give depth to April's character that way.

I wouldn't be complaining about the series if I didn't sense the series had the potential to take the storywriting to a deeper level, which it did back in the beginning 2/3 of the first season, but now it seems the series is regressing away from that depth, as I mentioned before.

...Then again, maybe I should start lowering my expectations of this series so I won't feel so disappointed...

I get what your saying, but if you look past the mutants, there is a ton of deeper writing going on. Karai being splinters daughter is obviously going to have depth and development to its arc, April is away from the turtles, so she gets a chance for development, the turtles will be going to dimension x which could lead to any number plots as well as bringing back leather head, raph and Casey's relationship that will be built, raph and slashs relationship, mutagen mans plot (that ciro hinted would be a big part of this season).

The mutant of the week stuff does take away from this shows potential, but it is a kids show, so they can't just make it all deep plot and writing. But if you see the arcs behind it, it shows that the writers aren't decreasing at all, especially compared to the first season, where the only true arcs were tmnt vs shredder, tmnt vs kraang, and Donnie and April

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

I get what your saying, but if you look past the mutants, there is a ton of deeper writing going on. Karai being splinters daughter is obviously going to have depth and development to its arc, April is away from the turtles, so she gets a chance for development, the turtles will be going to dimension x which could lead to any number plots as well as bringing back leather head, raph and Casey's relationship that will be built, raph and slashs relationship, mutagen mans plot (that ciro hinted would be a big part of this season).

There is a lot of potential for sure and I am still hopeful , but I guess I would have preferred to see the series develop the characters it already had (as it was doing with Bradford and Xever) slightly more, rather than perpetually introducing new characters as just "another reckless mutant" that has to be defeated.

Eh... *shrug* Whatever, I mean again, we all just have to wait and see.

[Electric]

Originally Posted by JYX

There is a lot of potential for sure and I am still hopeful , but I guess I would have preferred to see the series develop the characters it already had (as it was doing with Bradford and Xever) slightly more, rather than perpetually introducing new characters as just "another reckless mutant" that has to be defeated.

Eh... *shrug* Whatever, I mean again, we all just have to wait and see.

again i agree, i wouldve preferred them to maybe not have mutants like the squirrel or owl, and instead develop other mutants more, like snakeweed, or evene further develop DP/FF,

im just trying to make the best out of this show, and not get disapointed by things im not a fan of

[chrisdude]

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by chrisdude

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

**shrug** For all we know, it could be just simply that.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by chrisdude

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

Uh you do realize we have a ton of confirmed mutants this season, right?

[chrisdude]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Uh you do realize we have a ton of confirmed mutants this season, right?

Is it really more than the number we had first season?

[Pterobat]

"Succeed more" with whom? The fans or the general audience?

Even if some nerdy things make a lot of money at the box office, the vast majority of viewers of new Turtles series are going to be children and their parents. This mainstream audience is the first concern of any production company worth its salt.

If the Nicktoon includes things that Turtles fans have always wanted to see redone, it might just be a happy accident. That they reached into the Turtles franchise hat and found something that might sell to a new generation of kids, and coincidentally, also be something the older fans want to see.

It's more about convenience than pleasing the fans, that the Nick crew has a whole media franchise to draw from, which is easier to do than making new stuff.

It's just like with Transformers: somebody puts out toys based on obscure Transformers that only nerds remember, because these characters will still be new to the general audience, and nobody has to make up anything new.

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, JYX, Leo didn't show Xever mercy, he showed Fong mercy and let him go. I'd love to see a backstory about the Purple Dragons as well, but even so, I'm excited for this new season. Every TMNT fan wants something different, so you're not going to cater to everybody, but I'd say that this show is doing a great job of mixing different elements in and really giving us a good story and paying homage to what has come before in different ways.

[tylerdavies]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

Well, it's Nick. Let's face it, even though 2003 series had a lot going for it, good plots and serious elements, they had it in early times and lacked promotion for it. Nick tends to over advertise it's most popular shows, the only annoying thing is the breaks they give us

The breaks are the worst part about this show

[CyberCubed]

If Nick brings Armaggon into this show it will become my favorite cartoon. So if they want to give fans something they've always wanted...then give us Armaggon.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah really. Take a leap, guy, you're f*cking boring.

For me, the simple fact there aren't stupid g*ddamn pizza jokes every 5 f*cking seconds means that the 2K3 show will likely remain my preference regardless of what else happens. I've been sick of that sh*t since I was 8.

Don't exaggerate to make a point. That's low. It wasn't nearly every five seconds; I'm reasonably certain it wasn't even every episode.

As for the rest:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I honestly think that the 2K3 show's greatest strength was that it tried to be completely different from the OT. We're in a different place now as a fandom; if a show came out back then that was a straight rehash/reimagining of the OT, I honestly think people would have dismissed it as lazy. As I recall, at the time everyone was high on the fact the franchise had kind of "grown up" with them, and the 2K3 show was hitting the notes everyone wanted *then*. Now we seem to be in a place where we want more whimsy, so the newer show feels more "right".

Things and people change. *I* for one still prefer a less juvenile TMNT cartoon that can almost stand next to Justice League/JLU etc. as far as tone and quality, and I also will take hand-drawn animation over CGI 99.999999% of the time. For *this* fan, the Nick show isn't hitting the right notes or "giving me what I want". Not that I don't like it, but if it were up to me it would be completely different in many ways. I don't like the April/Donnie thing, I don't like the never-ending "Mutagen Freak-Of-The-Week" thing, I don't like (and have NEVER liked) the pizza obsession, I don't like the way The Kraang talk, I don't like the (supposedly) "comedic" CGI sight gags... nothing that would make me not watch the show, but enough that I don't make it a *point* to watch it. I catch it when I catch it and that's good enough. But at the same time, I'm not the audience, the audience is 8-year-olds and it's designed for them. I get that.

But *some* of us didn't want a show reminiscent of the OT at all, so it's impossible to make any kind of blanket statement about whether the new show is "better" at "giving fans what they want". Some of us want different things, and that should be OK. 2K3 wasn't perfect, but it was better by far at giving me what *I* wanted to see. The only thing the new show is giving me that I like, is a new TMNT show. That's about it. I like that there's a TMNT show on TV. I kinda wish it wasn't this one.

I used to agree with that. At the height of the 2003 show's quality, I thought it did a lot better than the original. Unfortunately, though many will attack my reasoning, and hey; I hope I'm wrong, I could see the 2003 show not aging well; maybe it already hasn't. The reason is, despite that 2003's show is objectively much better than the Fred Wolf show, now that I'm old enough to read the Mirage series and that series is now more available than ever before, I really would just prefer to read the Mirage series. In general, 2003's strongest episodes were the one's adapted from Mirage stories, and that's a point for it in terms of respect, but sadly not for it in terms of branching out to be its own thing. I'm not stating any revolutionary opinion that when the show actually broke out of the Mirage mold, it didn't retain its quality; many of us differ as to exactly when the series started going downhill (I take the rather extreme position that it was as soon as Ch'rel was revealed), but that it went downhill is pretty commonly accepted.

Say what you will about Fred Wolf, but it took advantage of its chance to be unique. It didn't even try to be reverent to Mirage, but if it had, it still wouldn't have succeeded too well. Instead, it took its lemon position and made lemonade. Not everyone's cup of tea, but a cup that everyone can look back on and continue to see as unique. 2003, for all its initially great intentions, suffers from lack of remarkability. The action is much better than Fred Wolf's, and I'll grant that it's wonderfully animated, but the no-kill policy cripples everything next to the graphic novels from which it was adapted. I loved the City of War arc the first time I saw it, but after the 2003 series had worn out its welcome and I became familiar with the original Mirage arc, it just looks dumb. The whole 4Kids Foot Clan looks dumb. Meanwhile, I thought the 2003 show's humor was much more cringe-worthy than Fred Wolf's; maybe more forgivable in that it didn't hijack the plot as much, but for me that factor is irrelevant when the show has other problems that did. That brings us to continuity, which is frequently cited as the one thing the series has over the Mirage original--I might be inclined to agree, but with where the plot went, I again have to say that's irrelevant.

Therefor, though I'm not crazy about certain things this show is doing either--I've really ripped into the mutant-of-the-week thing and the weight Don's crush on April has on everything--I do at least have to credit it for not falling into 2003's trap of being similar, but inferior to the Mirage series. I also feel IDW falls hard into that trap in its attempts to imitate both Mirage and Fred Wolf; the former because once again, their no-kill policy gums up the ability to take it seriously, and the latter because they've stripped the Fred Wolf stuff of its humor. I grant Krang has a dark sense of humor somewhat in line with his old self, but the IDW Neutrinos were terrible. My opinion is that if you're going to put ridiculous stuff in your series, at least it needs to be funny. If I can't take a series seriously, and I also can't laugh at it, where am I? The short answer is I'm just bored. Nick's show, though reverent to the past, isn't a slave to it; it doesn't try overwhelmingly hard to recreate past success when that's an almost guaranteed failure--even if a success, will still lead to irrelevance. Instead, it charts its own route; doing new things simply for the sake of being noteworthy next to its predecessors. For me, that's more important in an adaptation than reverence.

Oh; and why do you use asterisks where italics should be used?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Don't exaggerate to make a point. That's low.

Eh, I just sort of always do that. Blatant exaggerations are pretty easy to spot, so I'm always pretty sure one can tell it's a facetious statement. I mean, were the pizza jokes in the OT literally every five seconds? No, but they did annoy me greatly even as a child, since they had to be shoe-horned in regardless of whether it was actually funny or not. It *felt* like that often, to me.

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Oh; and why do you use asterisks where italics should be used?

Just a habit I fell into. Old people have quirks. I'm not exactly old, but... I'm getting there, slowly.

As far as simply preferring to read the actual Mirage source material over 2K3's rather weak and loose "adaptations" or "re-tellings" or whatever they could be called, I totally get that. I just try and enjoy them simply as "similar but different", rather than "similar but inferior", stories. I'll 100% always read the comics stories over watching the way Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Justice League/JLU, etc. loosely adapt them, but I still appreciate the cartoons and animated films for what they are. None of them ever quite do justice to the comics stories they're based on, but they're still great in their own way, and in such cases I look at any similarities or straight-up references to the books as a Bonus more than anything.

I watch TMNT 2K3 that way, not as even a loose adaptation of Mirage but an entirely different thing that occasionally uses the comics as a blueprint to throw a little extra in for those fans who would recognize it. I do agree fully that when it borrowed heavily from Mirage was when it was at its best, but that's pretty much true for every comic-based cartoon. Others have said that in many ways the FW TMNT show benefited greatly from having to be its own thing immediately, as most of Mirage canon hadn't even been established yet, which did indeed make it very unique and prevented a trap almost every comic book cartoon gets into, which is as you said, when things get further away from "the source", they go awry very quickly.

That's not a failing unique to 2K3 TMNT, though, by any means. More like the OT was lucky in that it really didn't have much to be compared to, while the 2K3 and 2012 shows have the burden of being retroactively compared - sometimes unfairly - not only to the earlier show(s), but in fact every single version of TMNT that has ever existed throughout all media. The OT, even today, does in a sense feel more "fresh" and "unique" and less "stale" than newer versions, but that's inherent by design. The newer shows carry a much heavier burden of comparison.