Clarification of Dark Leo and Dark Raph

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I'm pretty sure the crack has something to do with Leonardo. Remember when Slash hit Leo for the first time, and he was like "I've been waiting a loooonnng time to do that!"

Personally I took that as "Spike" simply being a silent witness to the frequent arguments between those two over the years and no doubt probably being the audience to much of Raph's venting behind closed doors.

Kinda hope the permanent damage isn't Leo's fault... Some Raph fans seem to adopt an attitude against Leo as it is, would prefer it not be fed further.

Still think if it was caused by a katana he should rightfully have a matching scar across shoulder, but he doesn't.

Would be better imo if the damage stood more as a badge of honor from an incident, rather than being the victim of something. Though if he had it upon mutating I hope people aren't overly disappointed if it turns out to be a simple reason.

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

While this is one of the few plots of the season I'm looking forward to, I'm a little disappointed too at the same time. To me, Dark Raph would have fit in better with the 2003 series instead, his anger and intense rivalry with Leo add the mix of Leo / Karai stuff is more of a reason for him to turn into dark Raph instead if this version, he seems more relaxed and Calm here next to 80s Raph.

City Fall only came out early this year. But I am surprised it was a new concept when it launched.

I'm still racking my brain why the sudden anger and dark Raph.
If any thing this would have been the perfect time to introduce dark Leo plot with what's happened to him and how he feels right now, it also could have given some real emotional scenes between the turtles, giving reasons for Leo to fight back against this darkness he's been feeling all along since the season two final even if brain washed he should still deep down be feeling these things.

Though yah, out of the turtles I'd say Leo has the best shot of getting through to Dark Raph.

Leo seems to be handling all this pretty well while Raph did not. He loses it and nearly belts Mikey at the end of S2. Leo would make more sense for me if he wasn't handling the recovery process well.

[Bitsy83]

Ever since i saw the concept art for "Speed Demon" and the "China Town" episode, I'm sort of wondering how much supernatural stuff exists in this universe. We already know that ghosts can be trapped in daggers and use "special martial arts that look like magic" to give special abilities to their minions. And according to what people have been saying, this "speed demon" is Donnie possessed, not double mutated.

So....I wonder what made Donatello turn into a reptilian version of Rat Fink?

Reason why I bring this up is I wonder if that's the angle they're going to use with Dark Raph. Let's say there was some mystical artifact or token that was attached to the car (hood ornament, bobble head, etc.) and Donnie comes in contact with it, which ends up controlling him and possesses his body.

Now let's say there's more than one of these tokens. And each token represents a different demon connected with a particular emotion.

For example, let's say that the token attached to the car Donnie finds represents pride. Since we still don't know what the writers are planning with this love triangle, maybe Donatello still feels the need to find a way to impress April. So while search for parts at a nearby junk heap, Donnie finds this snazzy car and decides to use it to impress April. With his brother's help, he gets it home and starts to work on it, only to find it eating away at his mind and making him obsessed with it. Ok, maybe PRIDE isn't a good one to use. I dunno....greed? Self-absorbtion?

Anyway, you get what I'm saying with that.

Now, about Raphael. What if the other token we find is connected to rage? Anger? And when Raphael reaches a certain limit of anger, it activates the token and it possesses his mind? Like, he's still Raph, but all the darkness and hatred inside Raphael is in control.

We all have good and bad in us. Like someone said, maybe a Jekyll and Hyde thing is going on here. (I ALWAYS loved those types of stories!) But even though Raph has his anger issues, he always knew when he went too far and does have a good heart. But what if the said-token cut off that part of him? Can you imagine a Rpahael without a conscience or self-control?

Just a plot bunny. I actually have a better idea for what the Speed Demon episode will be about, but it would be neat if some artifact was on the car.

[jenna]

Just stumbled across this thread.... wow. Intriguing!

I'd be very interested in how Raph makes the transition. Is it brainwashing / something beyond his control? Or is it something that actually he takes a role of responsibility in? How bad do things have to get for him before he is pushed over the edge and makes some bad choices?

I'm not saying I think that Raphael would consciously chose an alliance with the Shredder, because he wouldn't. He's far too loyal and loves his family too much for that.

But..... a 'dark Raph' story arc has real opportunity to explore Raphael's anger and its source, and how alienated he sometimes seems from his family, and I for one would like to see it done in a way in which Raphael must carry some of the responsibility for whatever happens to him.

Really, all I ever want from any incarnation of Raph is to see him confront his demons.

Either way... can't wait to see this story.

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by jenna

Just stumbled across this thread.... wow. Intriguing!

I'd be very interested in how Raph makes the transition. Is it brainwashing / something beyond his control? Or is it something that actually he takes a role of responsibility in? How bad do things have to get for him before he is pushed over the edge and makes some bad choices?

I'm not saying I think that Raphael would consciously chose an alliance with the Shredder, because he wouldn't. He's far too loyal and loves his family too much for that.

But..... a 'dark Raph' story arc has real opportunity to explore Raphael's anger and its source, and how alienated he sometimes seems from his family, and I for one would like to see it done in a way in which Raphael must carry some of the responsibility for whatever happens to him.

Really, all I ever want from any incarnation of Raph is to see him confront his demons.

Either way... can't wait to see this story.

If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

Or maybe he go through a double mutation and become Tokka. Tokka sounds like a japanese name that Shredder would give him.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

Well, it was said that dark Raph would be loosely based on the dark Leo arc, so we kind of have to keep that in mind when speculating. Obvious, the Tang Shen reaching out to Raph isn't going to happen, but, maybe Leo or Splinter can do it via meditation. Also, it's speculated that either Mikey, Leo or Splinter and perhaps Casey might be the one to reach out to Raph, but that is so predictable, it would be nice if it was Donnie for a change.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Obvious, the Tang Shen reaching out to Raph isn't going to happen

I dunno, might not be the reincarnation version (I think the Leo story is?), but we've already had one paranormal episode... The ghost of their would-be adoptive mother? He'd at least recognize her from her photos. Unlikely scenario, but if that happened and she reached out to him...

Still thinking Karai might play a role in getting him out of there though. His brothers or father will surely be the ones to get through to him, but if she helps get his butt out of there... could be good for his connection with Karai and his opinion of her.

[victory_angel]

Maybe Raph gets amnesia somehow and he gets found by the Foot Clan. The Foot take advantage of the situation by telling him he's a member of the their team. And their enemy is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Raph not knowing anything else believes this and sides with the Foot against his brothers.

And the Shredder sees an advantage of having one of Splinter's sons on his side because it would break Yoshi to see one of his own on the side of his enemy. While Raph's memories return he likes being on the side of the Foot because he feels less restrained without a father and three brothers judging him for what he does.

He does try to play mole though, because just because he's batting for the other team doesn't mean he wants to see his family suffer and die. But he doesn't want to loose his cover either so he's conflicted with his actions.

So perhaps he can inform the Foot that one of his brothers can create Retromutagen and it would only be a matter of time before he has enough to cure Karai. Maybe Raph even tries to make sure Donnie has enough retromutagen for Karai. And even insists that he be the one who retrieves the Retromutagen from the Turtle figuring he could just take it, tell Donnie to lay low for a week or so, and he can just claim Donnie was killed in retrieval.

But Shredder tells Raph to take Tiger Claw with him and be sure to kill the Turtle when they get the Retromutagen.

[snake]

Originally Posted by Bitsy83

Ever since i saw the concept art for "Speed Demon" and the "China Town" episode, I'm sort of wondering how much supernatural stuff exists in this universe. We already know that ghosts can be trapped in daggers and use "special martial arts that look like magic" to give special abilities to their minions. And according to what people have been saying, this "speed demon" is Donnie possessed, not double mutated.

So....I wonder what made Donatello turn into a reptilian version of Rat Fink?

Reason why I bring this up is I wonder if that's the angle they're going to use with Dark Raph. Let's say there was some mystical artifact or token that was attached to the car (hood ornament, bobble head, etc.) and Donnie comes in contact with it, which ends up controlling him and possesses his body.

Now let's say there's more than one of these tokens. And each token represents a different demon connected with a particular emotion.

For example, let's say that the token attached to the car Donnie finds represents pride. Since we still don't know what the writers are planning with this love triangle, maybe Donatello still feels the need to find a way to impress April. So while search for parts at a nearby junk heap, Donnie finds this snazzy car and decides to use it to impress April. With his brother's help, he gets it home and starts to work on it, only to find it eating away at his mind and making him obsessed with it. Ok, maybe PRIDE isn't a good one to use. I dunno....greed? Self-absorbtion?

Anyway, you get what I'm saying with that.

Now, about Raphael. What if the other token we find is connected to rage? Anger? And when Raphael reaches a certain limit of anger, it activates the token and it possesses his mind? Like, he's still Raph, but all the darkness and hatred inside Raphael is in control.

We all have good and bad in us. Like someone said, maybe a Jekyll and Hyde thing is going on here. (I ALWAYS loved those types of stories!) But even though Raph has his anger issues, he always knew when he went too far and does have a good heart. But what if the said-token cut off that part of him? Can you imagine a Rpahael without a conscience or self-control?

Just a plot bunny. I actually have a better idea for what the Speed Demon episode will be about, but it would be neat if some artifact was on the car.

Have 6 different tokens controlled by six different demons (Speed Demon, maybe Ho Chan) and the turtles would have to destroy them. That would make for a great story.

[Allio]

honestly, I feel like if anyone were to go to the foot in the Nick cartoon, it would be Donnie

if for any reason, it just feels like the love triangle probably mirrors the Yoshi/Teng/Saki relationship

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by Allio

honestly, I feel like if anyone were to go to the foot in the Nick cartoon, it would be Donnie

if for any reason, it just feels like the love triangle probably mirrors the Yoshi/Teng/Saki relationship

If Dark Donnie became a thing, no one would stand a chance. They would be so ****ed.

[Ashwolf]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Maybe Raph gets amnesia somehow and he gets found by the Foot Clan. The Foot take advantage of the situation by telling him he's a member of the their team. And their enemy is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Raph not knowing anything else believes this and sides with the Foot against his brothers.

being reminded about how he got the chip on his plastron might be what snaps him out of it

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

If Dark Donnie became a thing, no one would stand a chance. They would be so ****ed.

This reminds me of two OT eps..."Donatello's Duplicate" and "The Dark Turtle".

Donatello made that clone who was very egotistical and didn't care that he was helping the bad guys, as long as he was recognized for his genius, which is something the real Donatello wanted as well as being appreciated. For his clone to act in such a way, the feelings, and the potential had to have been there. May also explain his apathy towards humans and why he, as well as Raph, sided with Havic...the apathy thing.

The Dark Turtle had an insane Donny on a mission to kill Shredder, which he would've if the others wouldn't have stopped him...and censors, of course. . Maybe unstable works better. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if he hadn't been pushed by the others.

I know, off topic, but that's what I think of when I hear "dark Donny" in a goofy setting, and 2k12 Turtles is pretty goofy.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

This reminds me of two OT eps..."Donatello's Duplicate" and "The Dark Turtle".

Donatello made that clone who was very egotistical and didn't care that he was helping the bad guys, as long as he was recognized for his genius, which is something the real Donatello wanted as well as being appreciated. For his clone to act in such a way, the feelings, and the potential had to have been there. May also explain his apathy towards humans and why he, as well as Raph, sided with Havic...the apathy thing.

The Dark Turtle had an insane Donny on a mission to kill Shredder, which he would've if the others wouldn't have stopped him...and censors, of course. . Maybe unstable works better. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if he hadn't been pushed by the others.

I know, off topic, but that's what I think of when I hear "dark Donny" in a goofy setting, and 2k12 Turtles is pretty goofy.

Donnie's intellect has sometimes made him arrogant such as when he make comments such as in Donatello's double where he says "I'm a scientist not a handy man."

Or when he was saying he should be leader because he's smarter then Leo, Raph, and Mikey combined. And of course where he was complaining to Timothy about Casey he says "Why would she like him? Because he's human that's why! Big deal..you know how many people are human?"

But depending on what incarnation you are watching Donnie either has no regrets about his arrogant ego clouding his judgment. While other incarnations he does try to to make an effort of showing that just because he's smarter then everyone else does not consider himself as better then everyone else.

In the 2012 version Donnie does try to be a selfless genius. Most of the time his efforts are for the betterment of his friends and family if not the whole world. However selfless teenager is a bit of an oxymoron, because on some levels Donnie does display a desire of self interest in what he does. Be it gaining affection from April, or his brother and father recognizing and appreciating his efforts.

And he is aware of this flaw in his personality as well because it comes back to bite him every so often.
One such moment is during the invasion when Donnie and Leo were arguing over what plan was better. Donnie insists that his invention is the end all that stops the invasion. But after Leo leads the Kraang away so Donnie, April, and Mikey get to safety his attitude changes from "my way or the high way" to "what have I done?"

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

I dunno, might not be the reincarnation version (I think the Leo story is?), but we've already had one paranormal episode... The ghost of their would-be adoptive mother? He'd at least recognize her from her photos. Unlikely scenario, but if that happened and she reached out to him...

Still thinking Karai might play a role in getting him out of there though. His brothers or father will surely be the ones to get through to him, but if she helps get his butt out of there... could be good for his connection with Karai and his opinion of her.

I think Raph's already come around to Karai. He was the last Turtle trying to find her in the end, and I thought that was kind of sweet that he refused to give up finding Splinter's daughter. Sometimes, I do feel sorry for Raph in certain situations. Donnie's mind has been so clouded because of the April and Casey thing, Leo is also feeling down in the dumps because of Splinter gaining and losing his daughter within a 24 hour period, and Mikey tends to not want to take any sense of responsibility, so Raph has to shoulder the burden of trying to keep what little he family has together.

[zantha]

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by zantha

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

I understand your views on this and I agree. It would make sense for Donnie to turn to the darkside. However Donnie's personality is too gentle natured for the Foot Clan. Yes Donnie has his violent and vindictive moments but the Foot Clan would destroy him emotionally, mentally and physically. And Donnie's weapon is one the Shredder would see as belonging to a weak willed coward so in other words Splinter's son through and through.

And in the Shredder's mind having a Turtle have the ability to create the very substance he needs to return Karai to human. He would see that as a means to restore Karai, and also a threat to his mutant army. So I see the Shredder wanting to see Donnie eliminated as soon as possible just so the Turtles won't have that advantage.

[Bitsy83]

Originally Posted by zantha

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

Ever since season 1, I really thought they WERE going to go for a "Dark Donnie" angle. You know, with the Tang Shen parallels with him, Casey, and April.

Could still happen, though.

You're right. Shredder wants retromutagen; Donnie is considered sort of the weakest member of the group fighting-wise (Heck, Mikey has TWO weapons!). Growing up, I wonder if Donnie was curious as to why Leo and Raph trained with metal weapons while he was given a stick.

The only way Donnie would join the Foot willingly was if April rejected him, which looks like it's not going to happen after "A Foot Too Big.".....unless there was a huge misunderstanding and Casey lied to Donnie, making him THINK that April didn't want him, but that would be way too douchy on Casey's part.

I actually started a fan fiction awhile back where Donnie goes through something like this. I want to keep writing it, but i have this weird thing about writing AU fan fictions. I like my stories to be as accurate as possible without derailing the original storyline. Still......(sees unfinished documents on computer)

[zantha]

i don't know about willing. when the shredder finds out if he doesn't already know that Donnie can male retromutagen. while yes he would not want the turtles to have that knowledge, he would also not want to lose said knowledge if it could cure Karia. also as you said he would see Donnie as being weak, therefore an eassy target.

the way it could play out is, as we know getting them back into NY will be hard and Donnie will play a large part in that. this effort as well as keeping Leo alive in the break, with help of course, saving Raph in S301, and the other stuff he does with little at times appreciated or acknowledgement, toped with feelings of guilt and maybe April and Casey, begin to stress him out. as had said been before in other places, it is a wonder he hasn't had a major break down yet.

with this going, shredder finds out about the retomutagen. as said before seeing Donnie as weak so he kidnaps him. gets him to make the retomustagen, with the goal of killing him after. as he is working on the retomutagen maybe he tries to get away, shows that he is a capable ninja or shredder realises that he maybe an asset to him, as he is smarted than Stockman. so he offers him praise and encouragement about his intelligence, something I don't think he gets much form his family as they don't understand him. he starts to feel that he is appreciated for once.

there is a fanfic I read that sort of has this plot, sinister plot is it yours

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9940256/1/Sinister-Plot