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10-08-2015, 05:41 PM
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#21 | |
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Foot Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,117
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10-09-2015, 08:54 PM
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#22 |
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Foot Soldier
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Thats Classified
Posts: 114
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I cant be too excited for this. CN is not very good at handling action shows right now
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10-09-2015, 09:18 PM
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#23 | |
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Jedi Master
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 11,189
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Quote:
I would love for a continuation of Justice League in a third take though with more Aquaman and Bat Rogues this time around. I just know not to get my hopes with the Fischer-Price Super Friends and the Elseworlds trilogy that was just released. I am not interested in either of those. Justice League is what got me into reading comics beyond TMNT Adventures.
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Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon! |
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10-09-2015, 10:21 PM
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#24 |
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Overlord
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 43,887
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Its not a continuation of an old series. Also remember Young Justice was canceled because it was too mature for kids and the toyline failed, so I doubt CN wants to do that again.
I'm expecting a very kid-friendly show similar to the DVD JLA movies, The Batman, etc. |
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10-10-2015, 03:51 AM
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#25 |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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All I ask is that
1) it's 2d animation 2) has tons of racial diversity 3) is not a Teen Titans Go show.
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10-10-2015, 07:28 AM
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#26 | |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,117
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10-10-2015, 08:25 AM
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#27 | |
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Jedi Master
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 11,189
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My ideal JLA lineup is Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkman, and Green Arrow. That is seven white men and one white woman. It is just the fact America was in a time of being a dominantly WASP culture when the Golden and Silver Ages were giving birth to nearly all heroes of any note for two companies. The industry cannot help that. As much I would rather see Hal Jordan over John Stewart Justice League proved even though Stewart was included for the purpose of having a black hero in the bunch he can be a strong character and not a static stereotype of Super Friends diversity. It can be done I just want it to ne because show creators dont include a character just because he is not a WASP or just because she is a woman who can give Wonder Woman another woman on the team. Black Lightning I would love to see in a reoccurring role.
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Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon! |
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10-10-2015, 01:54 PM
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#28 | |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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I don't care if they gotta dig some members out of the grave to make it happen. oh and they cant just BE there, they also have to be well written characters.(not a stereotype like you said) and not shoved to the side.
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Last edited by BabyTurtles; 10-10-2015 at 02:00 PM. |
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10-10-2015, 03:13 PM
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#29 |
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Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Yeah, sorry, that should never be a bullet point. That's when you get pandering bullsh*t like Apache Chief. Sticking guys or (or girls) in there just to "round out the numbers' is a flat-out horrible way to do things. Fact is, most of those characters would be (and have been) abhorred by fans, anyway. Vibe. Gypsy. Heck, the entire "Detroit Era" JLA from 1981-'86 may well have been called "Affirmative Action Justice League"... like, the only white guy was a cyborg android (Commander Steel). All of the characters were created, inserted, and given a very high level of prominence, specifically for the reasons of "Creating Racial Diversity". Nobody gave a sh*t. Vixen was okay, which is why she's the only character from that whole fiasco who still gets any play, but they got the ball for a solid 5 years as the "Official" JLA of record, and the world responded with a resounding, "We want the other characters back." Other than Vixen, the rest of them were either killed off outright, or buried so deep in the ashcan of DC history that their names are only ever mentioned as a huge inside joke. But it's not like they didn't have a chance to shine and catch on; they tried. They were the "official" JLA... not a spin-off, not a subgroup... for about 5 years the JLA simply WAS a showcase for minority super-heroes. News Flash: Minorities didn't all suddenly start picking up the book in huge numbers, just because they felt "represented". Mostly, they didn't like it, because they saw through it for what it was: glad-handing. Pandering. A pat on the head. Passive-aggressively insulting to minorities, rather than empowering to them. Try too hard to "fix" something, you break it, no matter how good your intentions are.
The JLA isn't supposed to be a broad-strokes painting of the entire DCU; they're the Knights of the Round, the Elite; and as it so happens, very few minority characters have become popular enough so that people feel they "deserve" to stand next to Superman. You could blame the writers, you could blame the readers, you could blame society... but when you put Black Lightning - who is awesome - next to Superman and tell people "He's JUST as awesome!"... nobody honestly, really believes it. Sure, he's been in the JLA a couple times... but it doesn't "feel" like he fits. And he and Vixen probably deserve it more than anyone, they're the most popular minority characters DC has... but whenever they do put them in the JLA, everyone reading already knows it's only temporary, because deep down, everyone knows there is a huge gap between Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and Steel, Cyborg, and Vixen, as far as character hierarchy. And if you're sticking people into a group just to "round out the numbers", well, then it's not the Justice League anymore. Only the most powerful - and, let's be honest. most popular - characters deserve to be in the JLA. That's why there's a hundred other teams; not everyone makes it to the Majors, some of them are "just" AAA players, and that should be okay too. I'd even take issue with a few of the people MikeandRaph suggested, because frankly I'm not sure Hawkman or Green Arrow are Big Shots, either. I'd even chuck Aquaman, other than "He's always been there so he has to be in", even though he's pretty crummy. I'm like, "If you can't consistently hold your own book for more than 12 issues, no JLA for you. Send your resume to The Outsiders or something." Grant Morrison had it right. Core Seven. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and... sigh... Aquaman. Heaviest hitters only. Everyone else is an "associate member", otherwise you might as well just let anyone in. And not only is that unwieldy, it's silly. Besides, when did society start filling people's heads with the idea that people can only "identify" with characters that look just like them? I'm old, and trust me, this is a relatively new concept. It's a little insulting, to me, to imply that black kids can't "identify" with Batman because he's white, or that Mexican kids can't look up to and pretend they're Superman, because he doesn't look like them. That's really silly and also plainly false. Beyond that, when I was a kid, it was always understood by all that Martian Manhunter was "the minority character" on the team. The entire idea of the character from the beginning was that he could be representative of any race, color, religion, etc., because he was from friggin' Mars. Must we be SO specific, that we need to go down a checklist? "Okay, we need a black guy, and an Asian one, but not too smart, we don't want to stereotype anyone..." Especially when it means sticking in characters nobody likes, at the expense of more popular ones. -------- Now, if they want to execute the idea properly without it seeming forced, a better idea would be to toss out the restrictive "JLA" tag. I've always said that "Justice League Unlimited" really should have been called "DC Unlimited", because while it was awesome for what it was and gave a nice, much-deserved showcase to all the other DC characters, not JUST the Core Seven... a lot of those characters weren't specifically Justice League members, so the show's title at that point was a misnomer, branding purposes aside. If you're going to do a show about ALL the DCU characters, don't call it "Justice League", call it "Legends of the DCU" or something like that. Which is a show we need, honestly. I'd be fine with two shows; equal time for everyone. They won't do it, but they should. Then you're getting to showcase your entire roster of characters, without having to water down the JLA with second-stringers "just because". That just makes too much sense, though. |
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10-10-2015, 04:27 PM
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#30 | |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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Quote:
And of course poc can relate to white characters, honestly it's not like we have much of a choice. ...maybe it's time for the JLA to change.
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Last edited by BabyTurtles; 10-10-2015 at 04:34 PM. |
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10-10-2015, 04:49 PM
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#31 |
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Overlord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Britain, DINO THUNDER...POWER UP!
Posts: 22,501
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Representation is precisely why so much of the big two companies have gone to the s*its. There's no organic reason for any of it. Miles Morales is about the only time I've tolerated something along those lines.
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10-10-2015, 06:09 PM
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#32 | |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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I do kinda see how hard it is to have more minorities when DC/Marvel is overshadowed by so many iconic white heroes. I can only think of 3 ways to remedy this... 1. destroy everything and everyone and rebuild something new from the ground up...(that's never gonna happen) 2. start changing some heroes around (which gets people upset the most) 3. push the minority heroes they have.... possibly reinventing some of them so they can stand by the big shots. also add more new minority heroes with their own story and powers. but this is only gonna be successful if the writers care and try their best to make them good. (popularity is a problem though) either way somethings gotta happen.
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10-10-2015, 06:30 PM
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#33 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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Yeah, no, I'm never going to be in favor of any scenario where we should stick a loser like Vibe on the same level as Superman based on race "or else it isn't fair". The JLA is A-List. As it happens, there's only a handful of minority characters that even come close to that level. That's why there's the JSA, The Titans, The Outsiders, and the godforsaken Blood Pack: Because not everyone can be A-List, for a million different reasons. And when you start letting people "pass" based on arbitrary race quotas, or any kind of "relaxed standards", it obliterates the entire idea of having an A-List.
And the JLA absolutely should only be the A-List. No, that absolutely shouldn't change. And that has nothing to do with race, it has to do with standards. There is a canyon of difference between A-Team and B-Team super-heroes, especially in the DCU, a million things that separate a character like Superman from a character like Mon-El (They're practically the same exact character, except one is an icon and one is someone nobody's ever heard of!). I could easily name 100 characters without even trying who have actually been in the JLA despite having no good reason for it other than they were some writer's "pet character". And that crap is insufferable unless someone like Kieth Giffen is writing it, otherwise it reads like "Substitute Justice League (Sorry, Batman Was Too Busy, But Here's Maxima)". Every time they get too far away from the Core Seven, people stop reading the comics, and they have to reboot it BACK to the Core Seven in order to make people take the JLA seriously again. Like 5 or 6 times now. The JLA people want to see is the Core Seven, give or take a few extras so you have someone to kill off in the summer cross-over. So, if watering down the JLA with secondary characters nobody cares about always wrecks things in the comics, why on Earth would it be any different in a cartoon show or any other secondary media? It's not even that people don't like those characters, really, but they've proven they absolutely don't care about them as JLA members. Not one person can rightfully argue that Cyborg or Vixen are A-list characters who actually make sense being on the same team as Wonder Woman. And they've had a HUGE push over the years. Whose fault is it that most people still don't care about them very much? Painfully obscure characters don't belong in the Justice League, I don't care if they're black or yellow or pink. "Inclusion" for the sake of it is nothing more than pandering, and that's a whole different kind of offensive. Again, it's not like black or Hispanic people or girls just started reading comic books yesterday. They've been reading for decades, and for decades there have been minority super-heroes, hundreds of them, ranging from highly competent to highly stereotypical and offensive, and everything in between. Who are we supposed to blame when none of them has been "elevated" in the public's mind to the JLA level? I mean Cyborg's been in the JLA books for like, four years, he was in the "Injustice" game and he's gonna be in the movies, and most people still don't really like it, and they've had plenty of time to get used to it. He's popular, sure, but most people see it as forced inclusion; even though they like him, most people would rather see him with the Titans. Seeing him hang out with Superman and Batman instead of Nightwing and Donna, it's like not even what he would choose for himself, were Victor Stone a real person and not a fictional character being put in this situation by a writer. Or Black Lightning, a gritty, street-level super-hero, hanging out in a giant citadel on the Moon with a bunch of half-gods? His race is the last thing on the list of 100 reasons why he shouldn't be in the Justice League, even though he occasionally is. He doesn't fit, and trying to make it fit only draws more attention to how badly it doesn't fit. He's a good character, and was better "represented" as being "included" as a heavy-hitter in The Outsiders, another team of Good, But Definitely B-List characters. On the other hand, he wasn't really all that special as a secondary JLA member, overshadowed by all the more powerful, more popular characters. And it's not like they didn't try; they forced that whole thing pretty hard, especially during Final Crisis. Or getting away from race, how about someone like Zatanna? I love Zatanna. She's great. I don't really like her in the JLA, though. It really stretches the verisimilitude of the stories badly; it's hard enough to explain why Superman can't fix everything by himself and needs a team (my theory: He's really big on passively building up people's self-esteem through selective inaction  ), but then you have Zatanna waving her wand around and backwards-talking all the bad guys into fluffy bunnies and turtle doves, and it all starts getting a little bit too silly. She's a great character, but not a good JLA member.And on and on. They have "pushed" minority characters consistently, and it hasn't made readers prefer those characters any more than what they'd always had before. This sudden yearning for "inclusion" is like five minutes old, an invented injustice sprung from the imaginations of people who make it a point to see "exclusion" everywhere. It's a make-believe problem, in this case, it isn't real. It's a real-life problem, sure, but this is comic books, which is completely different. There is an abundance of representation in super-hero fiction. There's also freedom of choice, and the simple fact of life that people like what they like, and they don't like being pandered to. Color, race, religion, gender... forget the variable. Sticking low-end characters into the JLA damages the brand, no matter who they are. It's not that complicated. Filling a race or gender quota is a whole different kind of offensive. It's flat-out telling people what they're "supposed" to like. Well, people like the JLA when it's the Core Seven, not when it's "Just Anyone, Screw It, We Need More Chicks On The Team." 75 years of super-hero comics, and nobody ever seriously complains about not being represented, especially since the 70s. The things you want to "Happen", actually are "Happening", and have been "happening" since before you were even born, but people still overwhelmingly like what they like, not what you want them to like. That being the case... Maybe it's just you? I don't know. It seems like this problem is more a problem for you than it is most anyone else. You may be over-thinking things a bit, and may do well to relax a little. |
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10-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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#34 |
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The Agenda of Existing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vikingland
Posts: 14,596
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I've seen plenty of comic fans wanting more representation, in articles, podcasts etc. just because you don't see, doesn't man it doesn't exist.
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10-10-2015, 06:43 PM
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#35 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 27,703
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And just as many who thought Batwing was a dumb idea. Because one Batman is enough, you don't need "Guy Who's Just Like Batman, But Black". Once again, that's pandering. "Look, black people, there's a Batman Just For You!" No, yeah, that's not awful.
 If any black person ever said he couldn't relate to Batman because of race, that person has no friends and no life, because they're too busy tilting at windmills.Those people you speak of are a vast minority, prone to see "injustices" everywhere. That doesn't make their complaints necessarily valid. Especially when DC in particular was pushing female super-heroes and minority super-heroes hard and fast early on, decades before anyone even complained about stuff like this. DC "force-feeds" its readers "progressive" characters and concepts as a general rule and has from the beginning. So again, who do we blame that they're not more popular? To say they haven't been "pushed" is a blatant lie. People simply don't like those characters as much as other characters. Telling them they're "supposed" to hasn't "fixed" it. What then? |
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10-10-2015, 07:29 PM
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#36 |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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ya know~ since race doesn't matter Leo,
Let's just start changing some iconic character's races. It doesn't matter right? I mean it's just race, it's not like you wouldn't be able to relate to them still. I say we shoot for a Black Superman, a Hispanic Wonderwomen and an Asian Batman. I mean why not? it literally doesn't matter and their stories can be exactly the same.
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Last edited by BabyTurtles; 10-10-2015 at 07:42 PM. |
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10-10-2015, 07:32 PM
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#37 |
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The Agenda of Existing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vikingland
Posts: 14,596
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Okay, you give a example of a bad "minority" character like Batwing (I found the idea interesting but not read any so I'll take your word for it) But, how about something easier?
Aquaman is played by Jason Momoa, a Hawaiian. How about incorporate that into the next JLA cartoon version of Aquaman, have a Hawaiian voice actor and design implementations. Is the Rock still going to play Black Adam? Incorperate incorporate African or Samoan into the character. Is Blue Beetle guest starring an episode? Use Jaime Rayes as the current Beetle. Is Superman having an episode where he meets himself from a different universe? Have him meet Calvin Ellis the black Superman. Have black Perry White from MoS. John Stewart Green Lantern, or Earth-2 Alan Scott as this incarnation's earth's main Green Lantern. A episode that focuses on Batman and Batgirl could have Alysia Yeoh in it, there's also Bab's friend who sorta is hinted to be her "Oracle" in future installments in the comics iirc. Hawkman and Hawkgirl, be it Egyptian reincarnations or aliens aren't essential to be pasty white. Plenty of stuff to do. The square jawed cishet white male superhero isn't going to be taken away. Last edited by Candy Kappa; 10-10-2015 at 07:45 PM. |
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10-10-2015, 08:10 PM
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#38 |
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I Married a Duck!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur)
Posts: 8,773
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Yeesh. This again? I have to say, Leo's got the right of it as to pandering and representation. Heck, half the X-Men are minority races! Or female. Or both. And then we had the recent FF movie- which flopped BADLY. In this case, race (of Johnny and his dad) was a big part of the reason why. Because they did it for "representation", just because, and it failed. MISERABLY.
It's not that minorities can't identify with the main heroes, because those heroes represent certain CORE values that ANYONE can have or relate to. That's the whole POINT of why they are the main heroes. They are flawed, to be sure, but they are heroes who persevere, and who strive to do the right thing no matter what the situation. And ANYONE can aspire to that ideal. Actually, EVERYONE should. We've had minority heroes for decades, and as Leo has rightly pointed out. The vast majority of those haven't caught on because they just aren't that good or interesting compared to the icons. I mean, there are plenty of fans of Psylocke, but she doesn't have her own book, and rarely ever did. Same with Danni Moonstar, or Cannonball, Sunspot, Warpath, or any of dozens of other minority heroes. Occasionally you get a really good one like Luke Cage, Black Panther, Storm, or Jubilee. But even then, they are never quite as popular or well-known as the REAL icons. Why is that, if not because people simply identify better with the heroes that are older and more well-rounded due to familiarity and exposure? It's pretty simple, really. It's as true of DC as it has been of Marvel. They have both been around long enough to have been through all this before- more than once, in fact. And it always comes back to the core characters.
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"You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs" "Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491 My various stories and fan-fics are now here- https://m.fanfiction.net/u/4770494/#end |
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10-10-2015, 08:53 PM
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#39 | |
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Jedi Master
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 11,189
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Blue Bettle a lower end but notable secondary hero was suddenly killed off as a sacrifical lamb for a crisis. He was then immediately replaced by a minority youth with no characterization. He even got other media exposure in Batman : The Brave and The Bold along with two failed titles. He never came close to Ted Kord's cult following and for some reason is still around using an established identity and like Atom is removed for the sole purpose of a minority replacing him in an established role. DC probably thought it low enough character it would work, but it was more backlash then appeasement for making a minority into a already rstabliahed mantle. Just as The Question was finally getting attention aside from the brief series from the late 80s' thanks the inclusion in later Justice League episodes and coming off as an unique badass he dies of lung cancer only to be replaced not just by a Hispanic but a Hispanic woman who was retconbed into being gay for the sake of being gay and throwing it in the readers face of her huge minority status. If I wee DC I would have attempted to have The Question as a reoccuring character or a supoorting charactet taking advantage of the animated push like it did with John Stewart. Montoya was good enough as a cop who just happened to be a minority. Dont know if she even appears anymore.
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Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon! |
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10-10-2015, 09:26 PM
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#40 | |
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Foot Elite
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,177
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More than anything I just want DC to push their already minority heroes harder and write them better. Let them be the center of attention for once.
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