Turtles from TMNT2 - First Look! (toppers)

[graphic_content]

Originally Posted by Leo656

But Liefeld is a gazillionaire and we're not, so clearly he's smarter than all of us. Only idiots master basic anatomy before becoming superstar comic book artists. Smart guys swipe a few dozen panels from old issues of Teen Titans and call it a f*cking career.
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Read again more carefully GC: Nowhere do I ever state anything is "just a matter of opinion." That's never been my motto. My motto is, "Some things simply are what they f*cking are, and people's 'opinions' to the contrary are just them spitting in the wind." I think you misread what I was trying to say. No harm done.

But no, saying the TMNT movie designs are bad is NOT an opinion, it's a simple statement of fact. Someone saying they like the designs IS an opinion. And they have a right to it. But it's meaningless and it doesn't change the fact that the designs, from an unbiased, completely OBJECTIVE point of view, are bad. Like the movie itself. People can like the movie. It was still bad. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. The designs are poorly done, and the movie was poorly made.

Put simply - and I've said this before - Opinions don't outweigh Facts. That's the distinction.

the movie thing I get - there are universally accepted standards for good storytelling that this film DID NOT meet. I get it.

BUT, how is someone liking the designs an opinion, but you stating they are bad, not one too?

Nothing against you personally bro, but it just seems contradictory.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by graphic_content

the movie thing I get - there are universally accepted standards for good storytelling that this film DID NOT meet. I get it.

BUT, how is someone liking the designs an opinion, but you stating they are bad, not one too?

Nothing against you personally bro, but it just seems contradictory.

Because some things contradict their basic nature.

Monster 7' Tall 600lb Turtles is a bad design.

Anorexic 90lb 4'4" Concave-Chest Hulk is a bad design.

Amish Iron Man is a bad design.

[Leo656]

Because there's such a thing as Good Character Design, or Good Clothing/Costume Design, they teach it in schools and it's kind of an accepted thing? It's really not complicated.

Anyone who's taken a class or even owns a beginner's guide book on designing characters for comic books or something to that effect can point out a dozen things about those designs that are infuriating, serve no function, and make no sense. Plenty of people already have and will continue to do so, and I thank those people for investing the energy I simply don't have for this.

But again, Good Character Design (or Clothing/Costume Design) Is An Actual Thing People Go To School To Learn. Thus, it's not a simple matter of opinion. Those designs are something a ten-year-old kid would come up with. Or Rob Liefeld. Just a jumbled mess. There is no argument for why they're good. They are not good. They are demonstrably, provably Not Good.

It's true that the original, "Classic" TMNT designs are so elegant in their simplicity that tweaking or adding anything at all really comes off as needless, arbitrary, and a bad idea. But you can do it. It's been done, it's been tinkered with, to various degrees of success. THESE designs, this mis-matched, patchwork monstrosity of nonsense, is the problem. The fact that everything they're wearing and everything stuck on them is ugly, extraneous, and only there for the dumbest of dumb reasons. Not all TMNT redesigns are bad... but the movie ones sure as sh*t are and that's inarguable.

If something can be supported with facts it is Fact, not Opinion. I'm not sure why people seem to struggle with this, other than, people don't like Facts that go against their Opinions. Tough rocks, that's life.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by graphic_content

BUT, how is someone liking the designs an opinion, but you stating they are bad, not one too?.

It's times like this I wish I saved the post I made before the move section lockdown, where I explained in detail on each Turtle why the creative design and clothing design was bad.

It was so long I had to break it up into 3 posts iirc.

[Leo656]

You're one of the ones I was thinking of. You're good at sh*t like that.

[graphic_content]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Because there's such a thing as Good Character Design, or Good Clothing/Costume Design, they teach it in schools and it's kind of an accepted thing? It's really not complicated.

Yes, I am aware - I went to school for design, and computer graphics, and know that there universally accepted rules. BUT, even in that environment, choices in aesthetic are rooted in personal opinion.

Let's not beat a dead horse, it is what it is.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Because some things contradict their basic nature.

Monster 7' Tall 600lb Turtles is a bad design.

Anorexic 90lb 4'4" Concave-Chest Hulk is a bad design.

Amish Iron Man is a bad design.

A fair point - the designs do contradict their pre-established nature, but by default, it doesn't make them bad, just different.

An Amish Iron Man? Anorexic Hulk? Picturing those in my head made me laugh. You have my thanks.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

It's times like this I wish I saved the post I made before the move section lockdown, where I explained in detail on each Turtle why the creative design and clothing design was bad.

It was so long I had to break it up into 3 posts iirc.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. As an early supporter of this film series, I will admit now, that the more I look at the Turtles, and the more times I've seen the film, the more I wish they went in completely different directions. This series, and its designs, are SERIOUSLY FLAWED.

All I'm saying is, at the end of the day, just like the statement I just made about the series, like any other is JUST an opinion.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by graphic_content

A fair point - the designs do contradict their pre-established nature, but by default, it doesn't make them bad, just different.

An Amish Iron Man? Anorexic Hulk? Picturing those in my head made me laugh. You have my thanks.

I'll freely admit, I don't mind my Turtles wearing a bit of personalized bling.

The accessories didn't really bother me (extraneous though they may be), except for Donnie's uber-nerd appearance. That was damned insulting.

But putting all four Turtles in pants just brings the utter ridiculousness of the design choices into sharp focus. It looks like April O'Neil's bachelorette party.

[graphic_content]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'll freely admit, I don't mind my Turtles wearing a bit of personalized bling.

The accessories didn't really bother me (extraneous though they may be), except for Donnie's uber-nerd appearance. That was damned insulting.

But putting all four Turtles in pants just brings the utter ridiculousness of the design choices into sharp focus. It looks like April O'Neil's bachelorette party.

No arguments here. Donnie has always been a personal favorite of mine since the OT, but it's like they took every 'NERD/GEEK' stereotype and just vomited all over his PD version. Ya think a guy that was that much into having tech on hand, would make it more streamline and less bulky.

I only like the pants, IF they move to wear like a FULL suit, traditional ninja-esque style for some clandestine part of the film.

[Leo656]

Difference is, an "opinion" unsupported by facts is completely worthless to anyone except the person speaking it.

It's a harsh truth, but it is the truth.

"Just my opinion" = probably the three most empty, meaningless, worthless words ever assembled in the entire English language. It means nothing. But to the speaker, it means everything, including that they don't have to actually listen to reason or acknowledge truth.

I mean, I get it, you think people are overreacting to the designs. Well, they're not. But I empathize with you that the discussion may be more than a bit redundant at this point. Still, it's entirely justified all the same, so it's probably not going away anytime soon.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by graphic_content

A fair point - the designs do contradict their pre-established nature, but by default, it doesn't make them bad, just different.

I'd argue it does, though. The design should serve and sell the characters and the concept. And the classic look does that -- their short/small size shows they're not adults (Teenage), their overall "look" is a solid blend between turtles and humans (Mutant Turtles), their accessories effectively show you what they are (Ninja) without overwhelming the rest of the design. They've got that kind of elegant simplicity that just always works. It worked in 1984 and it works now.

Besides which, even on a simple practical level... they're ninjas. They're meant to be stealthy, which becomes increasingly hard to buy when they're 7+ foot tall bruisers. Their movement would be somewhat restricted already by their shells and plastron, so it makes sense for them not to wear something like pants or tie random pieces of clothing around their waists in order to move as fluidly and effectively as possible -- all that stuff does is further restrict their movement, which goes against their main function.

I know the dead horse has now been beaten to a fine paste, but there are plenty of well-backed-up, objective reasons why these designs just don't work and were not well thought out.

[Leo656]

I gotta take a nap and go to work. I just wanna point out that, despite the fact most of the comments were "negative" about the designs, absolutely everyone in here was having a grand old fun time until someone tried to shame them for their "negative" comments and jokes. Then everything got all angsty and circular. Again.

Maybe people ought to just let people talk and not try to police the content of the conversation. Just a thought. Sure seemed like everyone was having a lot more fun in this thread yesterday.

"In my opinion."

[graphic_content]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Difference is, an "opinion" unsupported by facts is completely worthless to anyone except the person speaking it.

What "facts" are you referring to bro? I keep asking you, why you thinking the designs are bad, trumps people who think the designs are good, and you keep giving me the definition between fact and opinion.

all in all dude, we've beaten a dead horse. i have nothing against you, and hope you have a good day at work.

Originally Posted by Bry

I'd argue it does, though. The design should serve and sell the characters and the concept. And the classic look does that -- their short/small size shows they're not adults (Teenage), their overall "look" is a solid blend between turtles and humans (Mutant Turtles), their accessories effectively show you what they are (Ninja) without overwhelming the rest of the design. They've got that kind of elegant simplicity that just always works. It worked in 1984 and it works now.

Besides which, even on a simple practical level... they're ninjas. They're meant to be stealthy, which becomes increasingly hard to buy when they're 7+ foot tall bruisers. Their movement would be somewhat restricted already by their shells and plastron, so it makes sense for them not to wear something like pants or tie random pieces of clothing around their waists in order to move as fluidly and effectively as possible -- all that stuff does is further restrict their movement, which goes against their main function.

I know the dead horse has now been beaten to a fine paste, but there are plenty of well-backed-up, objective reasons why these designs just don't work and were not well thought out.

all great points (no sarcasm), that I agree with. unfortunately, the design team didnt seem to think in that direction, and its really a shame. I've seen, as Im sure many of you have, some of the other concept designs, where they were much slimmer, and less physically imposing, and I wish they went with those.

shame that we have to wait on another iteration to see a different take.

[Leo656]

I did explain it: People who say the designs are bad have actual evidence to support that opinion. People who say the designs are good have nothing BUT that opinion, that they cling to like a life jacket even though it isn't helping anything.

A person can prove the designs are bad. But by contrast, no person can prove they are good, because they are Not Good. That's why the former "opinion" carries so much more weight than the latter. If it's "just" an opinion, with nothing substantial to support it other than, "It's what I think"... then it's worthless. It means nothing. It's nothing but a defensive reaction. It's just something people to say to convince themselves they're not wrong when the entire world seems to disagree with them. "But it can't be wrong, IT'S MY OPINION!" But opinions can be wrong and often are.

That's the point. Nothing against you either buddy but it's a lot simpler than you're making it. I mean, maybe it's just mean to say it out loud, "some opinions are worthless." Okay, maybe it's mean and maybe I'm an asshole for saying it out loud. It's totally the truth, though. Any opinion that's "Just" an opinion has absolutely zero weight and even speaking it aloud is a waste of the listeners' time. Support the "opinion" with facts, or defer to those who can, is how I look at it. "All opinions are equal and valid"... no, that's false. That is an ignorant lie that only invites more ignorance from the mouths of people who actually believe such nonsense.

I hope I've explained it enough to make sense. No hard feelin's, guy.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by graphic_content

all great points (no sarcasm), that I agree with. unfortunately, the design team didnt seem to think in that direction, and its really a shame. I've seen, as Im sure many of you have, some of the other concept designs, where they were much slimmer, and less physically imposing, and I wish they went with those.

shame that we have to wait on another iteration to see a different take.

Hey, glad we can agree on that.



I'd honestly hold the original TMNT designs up to some of the all-time classics. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man... each of them has been toyed with over the years, but there's a core, essential design in there that has to be adhered to in order to work right. And there's a reason the classic designs have never really been permanently changed or replaced. Timeless always wins in the end. Going for "trendy" or "realistic" redesigns just gives you something that'll look extremely dated in a few years, while the classic always looks good. But you'll always have some arrogant creator/designer who thinks they can do it better. It's like reinventing the wheel.

And some might not agree, but that's why I'm personally hoping for an "Amazing Spider-Man 2" situation with this movie, so they can reboot and someone else can get it right as soon as possible. That is well out of any of our hands, though.

[d_osborn]

It's not personally what I would have done, but I can't wait to see what the final renders look like! Based on the toppers, I think I'll dig the design changes more than the previous film.

I'll be there opening day with a huge grin, low expectations, my childhood pals and a belly full of pizza and beer. I'm anticipating that the fan reactions leading up will be more entertaining than the movie itself.

[Bry]

And more power to you, really. It's your money and your time, you don't have to answer to anyone.

Me, I'm gonna save my money for something I don't have to lower my expectations to the ground for. Rewarding mediocrity (or incompetence) is just voting for more, and I'm not gonna play a part in that.

[Technogeek29]

Keep it civil guys we were doing so well no insults until today. Let's focus on the real issue the designs not people's stance on the matter.

[Andrew NDB]

I will say that all the people clamoring for Peter Laird's ousting or cheering his sale of TMNT to a big corporate entity like Nick/Viacom... you people are getting exactly what you deserve.

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Bry

And more power to you, really. It's your money and your time, you don't have to answer to anyone.

Me, I'm gonna save my money for something I don't have to lower my expectations to the ground for. Rewarding mediocrity (or incompetence) is just voting for more, and I'm not gonna play a part in that.

Make no mistake, I'll be going for a fun evening with my old gang. Remembering old times, laughing, having fun. I'm not going to let my opinion of character design or production ruin that for me. The movie is just a catalyst for a few hours of fun, and my inner child loves the anticipation.

I guess the big difference for me is that my interest in TMNT comes from the past. I don't really have any personal connection to modern stuff... really anything after SOTO. There's an interest to see what's out there, but I simply don't care if it doesn't appeal to me. I can enjoy it for what it is: 90 minutes of escapism and a few laughs.

Back on topic, I like what I've seen of this design way more than TNM and TMNT 3.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I will say that all the people clamoring for Peter Laird's ousting or cheering his sale of TMNT to a big corporate entity like Nick/Viacom... you people are getting exactly what you deserve.

Yeah, Laird would never have been open to turtle pants in a TMNT movie.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by TurtleMikey

And we should be glad that, for one of the rare times in the history of the franchise, we have two versions to enjoy; the current fikk version, and the great Nickelodeon series.

I think you mean the IDW version and Nickelodeon series.