Did you like Krang's retcon?

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I don't have the time or patience to search through the wall of delusional nonsense that is your post list, so excuse me if I don't have the post ready.

Delusional compared to your misinformation?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Basically (from what I remember) you tried to claim David Wise was indeed responsible the Turtles having individual personalities, I pointed out that the micros had already established the individual personalities, that's when you went full moron and tried to claim the micros didn't count because they weren't part of the main series.

Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started. It takes a while for personalities for new characters to develop. David Wise took what he could from the comic and did his own thing that's why the animated series has it's own mythology and universe. Meanwhile Laird and Eastman did their own thing which is why for instance Raphael is always angry in the comic while Raph is sarcastic in the series. Even if the 80s cartoon was a toned down version of the Mirage comic it would never be faithful as the Mirage comic was still in flux. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

Originally Posted by neatoman

I think that was the moment I realised you are a resident of La La Land.

I don't work for La-La-land Records but would love to.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Delusional compared to your misinformation?

Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started. It takes a while for personalities for new characters to develop. David Wise took what he could from the comic and did his own thing that's why the animated series has it's own mythology and universe. Meanwhile Laird and Eastman did their own thing which is why for instance Raphael is always angry in the comic while Raph is sarcastic in the series. Even if the 80s cartoon was a toned down version of the Mirage comic it would never be faithful as the Mirage comic was still in flux. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

I don't work for La-La-land Records but would love to.

Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so". They had already gone past 10 issues of the regular series, published all four minis, started Tales and released the Fugitoid one-shot. For god's sake, there were even RPG's released two years before the cartoon! Who's telling who about the facts here, Pinocchio?

Hell, even if the Turtles had not been well established at that point, it's still important to note (no matter how much you may scream and protest it) that the cartoon was designed to be toy commercial and very little else. Most of the ideas probably didn't come from David Wise, but rather from the offices of Playmates. That's just what toy companies did when they commissioned cartoons, the outline, characters and concepts had been decided long before any script writer got to put pen to paper.

[WebLurker]

Can we keep things civil, please? We're all adults here. Adults getting angry over a kids show, but still... (As an aside, of the forums I frequent, I've found this one to have the least tactful postings overall. It doesn't make me want to stick around.)

Regardless of when the '87 cartoon started production and who was calling the creative shots, it was designed to be different in tone from the source material, as I understand it. Whether you see that as a good thing or not depends; it probably ruined the chances of a faithful adaptation of the original comics, but I doubt the franchise would've caught on as a pop culture mainstay without the original cartoon and its changes.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

Can we keep things civil, please? We're all adults here. Adults getting angry over a kids show, but still... (As an aside, of the forums I frequent, I've found this one to have the least tactful postings overall. It doesn't make me want to stick around.)

Regardless of when the '87 cartoon started production and who was calling the creative shots, it was designed to be different in tone from the source material, as I understand it. Whether you see that as a good thing or not depends; it probably ruined the chances of a faithful adaptation of the original comics, but I doubt the franchise would've caught on as a pop culture mainstay without the original cartoon and its changes.

Well, yes I'll agree that it was designed to be different, just not that it happened because there was too little work from. The problem is that pferreira keeps insisting on giving credit where it's not due, all based on easily debunked or vague statements.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Retcon = Retroactive continuity.

You guys are being wilfully ignorant of what Coola is trying to say.

That being said, with "Turtle Prime" being the root of it all, isn't everyone just a Mirage character?

Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.

I think for those that hate the idea of Krang being a Nick Utrom, maybe the solution is to decanonize the existence of multiverses in TMNT? The whole possibility hinges on there being a TMNT multiverse, and without one, he can never be a Nick Utrom.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.

True, but without it, we wouldn't have all these weird crossovers. The Mirage comics did a crossover reference with the Cowboys of Moo Mesa that shows Turtles from other forms of media.... and we still have yet another 80's crossover in season 5.

It's interesting, the Turtles are so different in each version that they can get away with basically... crossing over with themselves, which is why the whole multi-universe started. I mean, as many people as Batman has crossed over with.... we've never seen him crossover with his Adam West self. Nor have we ever seen the X-Men Evolution characters crossover with the 90's X-Men. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this except possibly the Chipmunks where one episode had the 90's versions meet their original 80's (70's?) versions when it was still called 'The Alvin Show'.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.

I think for those that hate the idea of Krang being a Nick Utrom, maybe the solution is to decanonize the existence of multiverses in TMNT? The whole possibility hinges on there being a TMNT multiverse, and without one, he can never be a Nick Utrom.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

True, but without it, we wouldn't have all these weird crossovers. The Mirage comics did a crossover reference with the Cowboys of Moo Mesa that shows Turtles from other forms of media.... and we still have yet another 80's crossover in season 5.

It's interesting, the Turtles are so different in each version that they can get away with basically... crossing over with themselves, which is why the whole multi-universe started. I mean, as many people as Batman has crossed over with.... we've never seen him crossover with his Adam West self. Nor have we ever seen the X-Men Evolution characters crossover with the 90's X-Men. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this except possibly the Chipmunks where one episode had the 90's versions meet their original 80's (70's?) versions when it was still called 'The Alvin Show'.

The interesting thing is that we do have canonical information of the different properties existing in multiverses, but there seem to be separate continuities.

The Turtles Forever show presented all the major installments of the franchise to date (the original comics, the movies, the first two cartoons, etc.), existing in one multiverse.

However, the Nick show remade that story in 'Trans-Dimensional Turtles." Since it's a good bet that the two can't coexist in the same story (the '80s characters don't recall or remember the previous incident), that strongly suggests that the Nick multiverse is only made up of the Nick show, the original comics, and the '80s show.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

The interesting thing is that we do have canonical information of the different properties existing in multiverses, but there seem to be separate continuities.

The Turtles Forever show presented all the major installments of the franchise to date (the original comics, the movies, the first two cartoons, etc.), existing in one multiverse.

However, the Nick show remade that story in 'Trans-Dimensional Turtles." Since it's a good bet that the two can't coexist in the same story (the '80s characters don't recall or remember the previous incident), that strongly suggests that the Nick multiverse is only made up of the Nick show, the original comics, and the '80s show.

Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever. However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse. To me, it's a crappy way of trying to keep the Mirage comics 'relavant' in perpetuity, and rather then it being a strength, it turns being related to the whole comic (and it's characters) into an ugly exploitable weakness. Ultimately at it's heart, it's created primarily so there's always a convenient excuse to drudge up old material to fanwank over, whether or not it adds anything of value (or even is any good.)

As for the subject ot the OP, I don't care if OT Krang is retconned into a Nick Utrom. I just want them to do it in such a way that it doesn't keep feeling like yet more OT wank, but actually adds something to him and the main Utroms and Kraang as a whole.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

There's 3 different versions of Krang himself. The original Fred Wolf, the Archie version, and the IDW version.

You forgot the 2003 and OOTS Krang's.

Originally Posted by Yabuturtle

Although it would be nice to know what his original body was like, whether he had an organic or robotic body, and I think a robotic body is more likely, it would have been nice to know what it looked like.

We saw his original body in Invasion of the Krangazoids.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Xav

You forgot the 2003 and OOTS Krang's.
We saw his original body in Invasion of the Krangazoids.

Well the 2003 Krang only appeared for a few seconds (presumably so nobody would confuse Ch'rell for Krang) and OotS... Let's pretend Michael Bay never got his hands on TMNT, the same way we pretend Haim Saban didn't...

As for the Krangazoids, I guess? Although there was that flashback that showed Krang's species as tentacled brains, so it's also possible he was an Utrom all along? Not that it matters, the series is full of contradictions and questionable continuity, asking what Krang was before he went to earth is like asking what the moral alignment of Atlantis was, or what Baxter Stockman episodes are canon, or even what color the mutagen was.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever.

I didn't mind the Turtles Forever multiverse, although I'm not sure I want to try and fit in the Nick show into it, as I explained before.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse. To me, it's a crappy way of trying to keep the Mirage comics 'relavant' in perpetuity, and rather then it being a strength, it turns being related to the whole comic (and it's characters) into an ugly exploitable weakness. Ultimately at it's heart, it's created primarily so there's always a convenient excuse to drudge up old material to fanwank over, whether or not it adds anything of value (or even is any good.)

I thought it was okay, although I think Nick handled it better (Tutles Forever implied that killing the Mirage Turtles would destroy reality, which doesn't make much sense (and begs the question what would happen when the Mirage Turtles passed away for good). Nick suggested that just destroying the Prime dimension was needed, which makes a little more sense.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

As for the subject ot the OP, I don't care if OT Krang is retconned into a Nick Utrom. I just want them to do it in such a way that it doesn't keep feeling like yet more OT wank, but actually adds something to him and the main Utroms and Kraang as a whole.

This one didn't? What do you think would've worked better?

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

better (Tutles Forever implied that killing the Mirage Turtles would destroy reality, which doesn't make much sense (and begs the question what would happen when the Mirage Turtles passed away for good)

Consider the timing, though. He was killing the Mirage turtles right in the middle of issue #1. They wouldn't have gone on to have anymore adventures to spawn or inspire the rest of the multiverse if they died right then and there.

We know that they do grow old and die, but not for a really long time. And they end up on the Halls of Lost Legends anyways.

Turtles FOREVER. Literally.

[WebLurker]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Consider the timing, though. He was killing the Mirage turtles right in the middle of issue #1. They wouldn't have gone on to have anymore adventures to spawn or inspire the rest of the multiverse if they died right then and there.

We know that they do grow old and die, but not for a really long time. And they end up on the Halls of Lost Legends anyways.

Turtles FOREVER. Literally.

I suppose, although given that in some branches of the Nick multiverse, Splinter is a mutant rat and in others he's a human mutated into a rat, there were already changed before the first issue, which would suggest that the multiverse was already spanning and self-sustaining. (This isn't quite like in Star Trek, where the reality of the reboot movies would be erased if something prevented Spock and Nero going through the red matter black hole in the prime timeline.)

[Yabuturtle]

Maybe it was never a recton but more of a "reveal" so to speak. His origin was mysterious enough already. But really he looks like an Utrom, there were some hints there were members of his race that were brain like and every other incarnation shows him being an Utrom, that he may as well be an Utrom now.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by WebLurker

I suppose, although given that in some branches of the Nick multiverse, Splinter is a mutant rat and in others he's a human mutated into a rat, there were already changed before the first issue, which would suggest that the multiverse was already spanning and self-sustaining. (This isn't quite like in Star Trek, where the reality of the reboot movies would be erased if something prevented Spock and Nero going through the red matter black hole in the prime timeline.)

Why would it mean that? This isn't a serious take on the multiverse concept, it's more of a riff on adaptations, Splinter starting out as a human isn't a split in the timeline but rather an idea that comes from the adaptation process. It doesn't matter because the Splinter that started out as a rat will always be the original Splinter.

No Mirage Turtles means there's nothing to make a cartoon out of. Mirage TMNT is the TMNT, nothing else can exist without it. Erase "Eatman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1" from existance and you take out the foundation.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so". They had already gone past 10 issues of the regular series, published all four minis, started Tales and released the Fugitoid one-shot. For god's sake, there were even RPG's released two years before the cartoon! Who's telling who about the facts here, Pinocchio?

The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap?

Originally Posted by neatoman

that the cartoon was designed to be toy commercial and very little else. Most of the ideas probably didn't come from David Wise, but rather from the offices of Playmates. That's just what toy companies did when they commissioned cartoons, the outline, characters and concepts had been decided long before any script writer got to put pen to paper.

Of course that's how TV works? To make money? Not just cartoons from the period but those now. You can gloss over it as much as you want but cartoon shows are made today to make money just like back in the 80s.

Originally Posted by neatoman

The problem is that pferreira keeps insisting on giving credit where it's not due, all based on easily debunked or vague statements.

I'll give credit where it's due and deserved as with the Fred Wolf cartoon series.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by pferreira

The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap?

Of course that's how TV works? To make money? Not just cartoons from the period but those now. You can gloss over it as much as you want but cartoon shows are made today to make money just like back in the 80s.

I'll give credit where it's due and deserved as with the Fred Wolf cartoon series.

You are a troll, there is pretty much no way you aren't. Literally everything you wrote here is woefully off point, even contradictory to your own statements, you'd have to have actual mental problems to argue like this.

The way you're arguing reminds me a lot of ZariusTwo, I suspected he was a troll as well but it turned he's literally autistic (not autistic as in some childish attempt at an insult, as in he's actually diagnosed with aspergers). Are you autistic by the way? Because if you are, I'll understand.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever. However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse.

But that's exactly the way the DC multiverse works. If you wipe out the Earth-0 universe, the whole house of cards comes down.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

This has gone way off topic.

Originally Posted by neatoman

You are a troll, there is pretty much no way you aren't. Literally everything you wrote here is woefully off point, even contradictory to your own statements, you'd have to have actual mental problems to argue like this.

The way you're arguing reminds me a lot of ZariusTwo, I suspected he was a troll as well but it turned he's literally autistic (not autistic as in some childish attempt at an insult, as in he's actually diagnosed with aspergers). Are you autistic by the way? Because if you are, I'll understand.

Just... Who cares? Normally thats what you'd always say so why not just say it here? This arguement is pointless. It laughable to accuse others of mental illness over their opinions on Ninja turtles and to be very serious about it.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Just... Who cares? Normally thats what you'd always say so why not just say it here? This arguement is pointless. It laughable to accuse others of mental illness over their opinions on Ninja turtles and to be very serious about it.

This isn't really about opinons, it's about how he's most likely a troll. I mean look at this crap:

Originally Posted by pferreira

Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so".

Originally Posted by pferreira

The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap?

It's contradictory, no sane person argues like this. He has to be a troll, I literally gave the timescale of 1984-1987 and he somehow tries imply I said both started in 1984.