Volume 4 News!!

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I still think the coolest thing I heard was something fan wrote in, telling me that their store actually started carrying TMNT because of Tales #36. That blew me away. Probably had more to do with Paul's art though

I think that actually proves my point about what can happen when a quality product is delivered.

[Raph'N'Roll]

Yeah exactly, good quality equals good sales more often than not, that issue was fantastic, and it was both the story and art that did it.
I wouldn't mind paying $10 for an issue if it was of substantial quality, but I'm at a stage now where I'm only buying TMNT if both art and story are good.
I bought the first issue of Raphael BMR, but the story and art just don't appeal to me, it should be renamed Bad Art Rising.

I don't know if I speak for many fans, but I'm a bit tired of 1 dimensional monsters and weird creatures in TMNT stories, for example Raphael BMR, I'd love to see some more gritty tales featuring cops, gangsters and Ninja's.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

their store actually started carrying TMNT because of Tales #36. That blew me away. Probably had more to do with Paul's art though

You're too modest.

I'll say that this direction for Vol. 4 is probably the most equitable for all parties involved (Mirage as a publisher, Laird as an author, the niche market that has supported it, and the almost unanimous number of comic stores that had long since dropped it from their shelves). As it was, and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form, it was really only ever going to appeal to old school Turtle fans that were/are willing to go on whatever ride Mr. Laird decides to take us on, no matter the quality of art and how many tangling plot threads are left tangling... you won't find anyone going, "I was introduced to TMNT by Volume 4 and here I am." And this is OK, I think -- Laird has never maintained he expected Vol. 4 to set the Diamond Distribution charts on fire.

Barring a fresh start, though, "Tales of the TMNT" as it is right now should really be the introductory sort of "Gateway Drug" into the comic book world of TMNT -- for better or worse, it needs to be on comic stands each month (more or less) next to the likes of Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man, Justice League of America with consistently solid art and captivating stories if there's to be any hope of a TMNT comic ever regaining its former heights.

I guess I'm saying, if Tales follows Vol. 4 into "online only" territory and there's nothing to take its place... the towel might as well be thrown in on the whole thing. Though I could be very wrong.

[Scandia]

On one hand, I can read them online during downtime at work.

On the other hand, comics are better to read when I'm having lunch/dinner out.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Most people, even in the industry, have the original toon still heavy in their memory, and when you say 'comics' a lot immediately think "Archie".

Yeah well that should tell you something right there.
If people remember those things so much they should push them into the dark of past forgotten TMNT things like it's some unwanted child.
I know Peter hates the fact that people remember those things more so than his own work but he has to remember that these other things are what kept Mirage going and is the same things that keep the checks rolling in.
You shouldn't be ashamed of your past at all I hope at some point he will be able to get over this and realize that was it did wasn't something bad but brought him tuns of fans and new readers to his comics as they grew older they went out and searched comic shops and found the Mirage comics either by their own, an uncle or heck even the comic shop owner themselves.
I also really don't think people downloading comics online is a huge deal as you'e making it Tristian I've only ever seen it brought up twice.
And no one's downloading comic books of the turtles for free at this point it's sad to say this and I don't want to sound like an ass but it's like the bands that complained when people where downloading music for free without them making a cent and no one was even downloading those bands music.
And I really do think we need a new comic along the lines of the Archie comics but I say we already have it with the new Tales of TMNT series.
To me Tales is the book that needs the pushing and promoting because it sells out allot of the time.
Also Many people don't really think it's a factor but ART is a huge factor in comic books and I'm sorry to say but tuns of people think Jim Lawsons recent art just doesnt cut it with todays comic world.
I honestly don't care at this point I got over Lawsons art and was getting into Peters story at this point I'd just like him to finish it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Yeah well that should tell you something right there.
If people remember those things so much they should push them into the dark of past forgotten TMNT things like it's some unwanted child.
I know Peter hates the fact that people remember those things more so than his own work but he has to remember that these other things are what kept Mirage going and is the same things that keep the checks rolling in.
You shouldn't be ashamed of your past at all I hope at some point he will be able to get over this and realize that was it did wasn't something bad but brought him tuns of fans and new readers to his comics as they grew older they went out and searched comic shops and found the Mirage comics either by their own, an uncle or heck even the comic shop owner themselves.

I could see him being not too fond of the Fred Wolf cartoon and such. The whole thing was kind of a double-edged sword, wasn't it (I'd stop just short of calling it a deal with the Devil, but that's just me)? On the one hand TMNT became a super-franchise and loaded their pockets with cash, on the other... it drifted pretty effing far away from the world/vision of Eastman & Laird's comics and took the general public perception of it along for the ride. Some of the editorial-type pages of Mirage's Vol. 1 from Eastman/Laird kind of illuminated their perspective on this as the TMNT cartoon/action figures/TMNT underwear stuff began to flourish while they continued to do their thing in the B&W comics.

That in the 2000s Laird was able to make a new cartoon that is kind of an reasonable enough compromise between the jovial/light-heartedness/off-the-walledness of the original cartoon and the early Mirage comics I'm sure he's very happy about accomplishing, but I think if he had to choose, he ain't gonna do no favors to the Fred Wolf cartoon and I don't know that I blame him (creatively, that is... monetarily, there'll always be money to be made off of original cartoon cult fans, be it in T-shirts or new figures or what-have-you).

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I could see him being not too fond of the Fred Wolf cartoon and such. The whole thing was kind of a double-edged sword, wasn't it (I'd stop just short of calling it a deal with the Devil, but that's just me)? On the one hand TMNT became a super-franchise and loaded their pockets with cash, on the other... it drifted pretty effing far away from the world/vision of Eastman & Laird's comics and took the general public perception of it along for the ride. Some of the editorial-type pages of Mirage's Vol. 1 from Eastman/Laird kind of illuminated their perspective on this as the TMNT cartoon/action figures/TMNT underwear stuff began to flourish while they continued to do their thing in the B&W comics.

That in the 2000s Laird was able to make a new cartoon that is kind of an reasonable enough compromise between the jovial/light-heartedness/off-the-walledness of the original cartoon and the early Mirage comics I'm sure he's very happy about accomplishing, but I think if he had to choose, he ain't gonna do no favors to the Fred Wolf cartoon and I don't know that I blame him (creatively, that is... monetarily, there'll always be money to be made off of original cartoon cult fans, be it in T-shirts or new figures or what-have-you).

I know Murphy said there will be t-shirts of Krang and the gang soon....but I think theres allot more to be said about a moderized line of highly detailed figures based on the old toon I mean sure I'm excited as hell about the Mirage figures finally being made and will buy all of them but I have to say more people would buy figures of the cartoon characters if they looked exactly like they did on the show say around 1992ish.
I'm not blaming him for having issues with it I just think it's unhealthy to have such issues about your past when it brings and brought so many people joy over the years and introduced tuns of people to the turtles no matter what version they like it really doesn't matter to me the TMNT are the TMNT no matter what version shape or form they come in as long as they've got the same names and story.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Yeah well that should tell you something right there.
If people remember those things so much they should push them into the dark of past forgotten TMNT things like it's some unwanted child.
I know Peter hates the fact that people remember those things more so than his own work but he has to remember that these other things are what kept Mirage going and is the same things that keep the checks rolling in.
You shouldn't be ashamed of your past at all I hope at some point he will be able to get over this and realize that was it did wasn't something bad but brought him tuns of fans and new readers to his comics as they grew older they went out and searched comic shops and found the Mirage comics either by their own, an uncle or heck even the comic shop owner themselves.
I also really don't think people downloading comics online is a huge deal as you'e making it Tristian I've only ever seen it brought up twice.
And no one's downloading comic books of the turtles for free at this point it's sad to say this and I don't want to sound like an ass but it's like the bands that complained when people where downloading music for free without them making a cent and no one was even downloading those bands music.
And I really do think we need a new comic along the lines of the Archie comics but I say we already have it with the new Tales of TMNT series.
To me Tales is the book that needs the pushing and promoting because it sells out allot of the time.
Also Many people don't really think it's a factor but ART is a huge factor in comic books and I'm sorry to say but tuns of people think Jim Lawsons recent art just doesnt cut it with todays comic world.
I honestly don't care at this point I got over Lawsons art and was getting into Peters story at this point I'd just like him to finish it.

You'd be surprised Putre. After checking out the sales figures, and then checking out the number of completed downloads of a torrent of just tales #36, if the number of people who downloaded the issue went out and bought the issue as well (I'm not saying they all didn't), I would've had a sell out issue, which would've been awesome. And the difference between the downloading of comics illegally over music is that the comic industry as a whole has been dying slowly. Fewer and fewer people are buying comics these days, and compared to the music industry, the comic book industry is like a flea. Sure you have Marvel and DC, but when you compare sales over the years, you see the decline. Downloading comics doesn't hurt the artists so much, it hurts the industry as a whole more than anything else. I personally have no problem with online comics, personally I rather have the actual book, but if people are reading my work, who am I to complain? But when you get scanners distributing it, you get people with the mentality of "well, I've read it and it's on my computer, why spend the money on it?". I've seen it come up on other boards moreso than this one -and you're right, it's only come up here a couple of times- but it does come up. I think downloadable comics is definitely the way of the future, but there needs to be a way for it to be done that won't hurt those putting their comics out there, and I think what Pete is proposing is something of a big deal, simply because it could very well pave the path for others looking to do the same.

The main thing here is, Pete's got his comic game back on, and he's got some pretty interesting ideas about how he's going to do it. He's also taking care of his fans by releasing the limited standard format books. I think the whole thing will be very interesting to watch from an industry point of view, but as a fan of volume 4, I'm just stoked to see it return!

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

You'd be surprised Putre. After checking out the sales figures, and then checking out the number of completed downloads of a torrent of just tales #36, if the number of people who downloaded the issue went out and bought the issue as well (I'm not saying they all didn't), I would've had a sell out issue, which would've been awesome. And the difference between the downloading of comics illegally over music is that the comic industry as a whole has been dying slowly. Fewer and fewer people are buying comics these days, and compared to the music industry, the comic book industry is like a flea. Sure you have Marvel and DC, but when you compare sales over the years, you see the decline. Downloading comics doesn't hurt the artists so much, it hurts the industry as a whole more than anything else. I personally have no problem with online comics, personally I rather have the actual book, but if people are reading my work, who am I to complain? But when you get scanners distributing it, you get people with the mentality of "well, I've read it and it's on my computer, why spend the money on it?". I've seen it come up on other boards moreso than this one -and you're right, it's only come up here a couple of times- but it does come up. I think downloadable comics is definitely the way of the future, but there needs to be a way for it to be done that won't hurt those putting their comics out there, and I think what Pete is proposing is something of a big deal, simply because it could very well pave the path for others looking to do the same.

The main thing here is, Pete's got his comic game back on, and he's got some pretty interesting ideas about how he's going to do it. He's also taking care of his fans by releasing the limited standard format books. I think the whole thing will be very interesting to watch from an industry point of view, but as a fan of volume 4, I'm just stoked to see it return!

Well I'm not a fan of the art like I said but I started to enjoy Peters story so I'm happy he will be moving forward with it.
But just like the whole Mirage old toon thing I really think this internet comic book thing is a double edged sword.
You're saying now people are downloading comics so whats stoping them if peter puts them online and one of us downloads it and then sends it to all the other turtle fans.
Also on the subject of comic stores not doing well...don't you think this isn't going to help much either if some one can just simply download something.
I mean hell I'm not going to be I'll wait till it's printed I own every other comic of the turtles in paper format even small spots they had in other comics and I'd not like to stop now so I'm happy he will be printing them.
But I have to agree $10.00 is a bit much for one issue unless they are going to be large or collected. Even Murphy thinks it's a bit much.
I've gotta agree with Rose though I don't think this is going to draw in any new fans at all.
I see tuns of stores from here in PA all the way to LA who still have copies of Vol.4 yet Tales usually more often than not sells out the day it comes in.
It should really tell you something about the standerd of comics, art and the people who read them these days.
Honeslty I know you're tooting your own horn allot about your issue but yeah I want more of that I wouldn't mind all the scifi every issue if the art and story telling was that good seriously. Tales for me is where it's at.
Oh and one last thing Tristsywisty could you please call me Cent or by the full user name I've asked everyone to please stop calling an abrivation that sounds close to a female sexual part lol k thanks.

[TristanHuwJones]

There's nothing stopping it from happening at all. But if they're put online for free, and Pete sells the printed versions to those who are pretty much guaranteed to buy them (fans like you and me, and the other turtle fans around the world who buy the comics), then the printed versions will probably sell quite well indeed, even at that proposed price.
Mirage isn't going to lose money (or as much money) by putting it online and releasing it in quantities they're pretty sure will sell. It'd be better than releasing a set number and then having it warm shelves. At least then, if people reading it online decide they want the physical format, and the demand for product increases, they can raise the print runs and perhaps lower the price.
If the comics are available to download for free, then I'm sure you'll find that people are more likely to check them out because it's a simple matter of clicking a few buttons. The POTENTIAL readership is a hell of a lot bigger than hoping people will pick it up in a comic shop. As I've been saying, this will depend hugely on how well promoted it is. It could die in the arse and we'd essentially be no better off (outside of having volume 4 to read), but if promoted well enough, then the readership for BOTH books can only expand. I'm sure those people who dropped the book, or were planning on doing so are more likely to give it a second chance if they don't have to pay for it and can read it without even leaving work or their home.

The only reason I'm using my own comic as an example is because I have the numbers on hand, so it's an easy example for me Tales of Raph would actually have done the same thing after checking that too though.

[StealthNinjaScyther]

Well, this is certainly interesting. It very well might get more people to look at the TMNT comics. However, the physical distribution is still problematic. I don't see putting out physical copies significantly later and at 10$ a pop could possibly work out.

Now, if the online thing works out and generates new interest I think that people would definitely want to buy the real thing. But they're not going to buy it if it's a hassle to do so. Put them into collected books and get them properly distributed and they'll sell. And proper distribution would mean major bookstores as well. If they could manage to make that happen, this plan might just work.

But the major hurdle, I fear, is whether or not enough people will like volume 4 enough to buy it. I'm not sure it provides enough for those who aren't already hardcore turtles fans.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by StealthNinjaScyther

Well, this is certainly interesting. It very well might get more people to look at the TMNT comics. However, the physical distribution is still problematic. I don't see putting out physical copies significantly later and at 10$ a pop could possibly work out.

Now, if the online thing works out and generates new interest I think that people would definitely want to buy the real thing. But they're not going to buy it if it's a hassle to do so. Put them into collected books and get them properly distributed and they'll sell. And proper distribution would mean major bookstores as well. If they could manage to make that happen, this plan might just work.

But the major hurdle, I fear, is whether or not enough people will like volume 4 enough to buy it. I'm not sure it provides enough for those who aren't already hardcore turtles fans.

I guess how it comes down is... regardless of whether or not Mirage stands to sell an equal or greater number of "copies" (whether virtual or the later physical "collector's" copies), Mirage stands to lose practically no money on Vol. 4 anymore.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I guess how it comes down is... regardless of whether or not Mirage stands to sell an equal or greater number of "copies" (whether virtual or the later physical "collector's" copies), Mirage stands to lose practically no money on Vol. 4 anymore.

Well if they're going to print 1000-3000 copies of the physical book anyways, you bet they're going to lose money. Murphy says the book was selling 3,500 copies before the hiatus (although that actual seems high... because my understanding is that you break even at 3,000 copies). If that's how many they sell at $3.25, there's no way they'll sell anything close to that at $10/each. IMO they'll be lucky to sell 500 copies of each.

[Ratchet]

I guess that's why the download or online viewing will be beneficial. If the fans that lost faith in the book back in the day like what they see they can order it. As Tristan said, if there's a guaranteed fanbase buying it, even in small numbers from all over the world, it's not going to lose anywhere near the amount of money it may have when it was running at a set print number. And this way it will be there at Mirage and not sitting on comic shop shelves putting retailers off. I like what's happening, although I think based on the response I often see online with TMNT, it might be better going straight into Trade Paperback form and distributing it that way with colelcted versions of Vol.1, 2 and especially 4.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Well if they're going to print 1000-3000 copies of the physical book anyways, you bet they're going to lose money. Murphy says the book was selling 3,500 copies before the hiatus (although that actual seems high... because my understanding is that you break even at 3,000 copies). If that's how many they sell at $3.25, there's no way they'll sell anything close to that at $10/each. IMO they'll be lucky to sell 500 copies of each.

You might be right on that estimate. But if they decide to bank on the online pay-per-views, the "collector's copies" could be printed on demand... say, a run of 250 per printing to suit demand. I actually have no idea what would be most feasible.

I'd be curious to know exactly how many copies of Vol. 4 (or Tales now, for that matter) were actually printed per issue to get a better idea/scale of the sales vs. cost associated.

But from scanning over the actual sales of the issues, I've compiled some hard numbers here (only spent about 15 minutes on this to grab these to give a rough idea) :

Tales 1 - 1600
Tales 2 - 5800
Tales 3 - 5100
Tales 4 - 4400
Tales 5 - 4200
Tales 6 - 3900
Tales 7 - 1000

Tales 13 - 3200

Tales 18 - 2900
Tales 19 - 2900

Tales 30 - 2600
Tales 31 - 2600
Tales 32 - 2553
Tales 33 - 2835
Tales 34 - 3116
Tales 35 - 3050
Tales 36 - 3,375 (Tristan kicking ass and taking names)

TMNT 14 - 5500
TMNT 15 - 5900
TMNT 16 - 5300
TMNT 25 - 3400

For anyone willing to take the time to grab the other sales figures, go here:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

Pretty easy to navigate.

[Roseangelo]

Putting in a new post...

[Coola Yagami]

I still don't like this... stuff like this is what keeps the TMNT down, into obscurity. Like how would the casual turtle fan even know the comic has gone online now? Unless they treat TMNT like any other big-name comic, the turtles will always remain obscure.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I still don't like this... stuff like this is what keeps the TMNT down, into obscurity. Like how would the casual turtle fan even know the comic has gone online now? Unless they treat TMNT like any other big-name comic, the turtles will always remain obscure.

Exactly. This is the heart of the point I've been trying to make.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I still don't like this... stuff like this is what keeps the TMNT down, into obscurity. Like how would the casual turtle fan even know the comic has gone online now? Unless they treat TMNT like any other big-name comic, the turtles will always remain obscure.

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Exactly. This is the heart of the point I've been trying to make.

Pretty true, but hopefully we're just talking about Volume 4 here (which even you yourself have said, Rose, isn't going to convert any TMNT non-believers either way).

The problem is really fundamental, and only worsened by the latest movie that reinforces the idea of TMNT as toddler fare in the public eye. Joe Q comic X-Men/Civil War/Infinite Crisis/World War Hulk buyer (which by most current 2007 demographics is about 20-35) that only knows about TMNT from previews and word of mouth or even some vague remembrance of Turtle Vans and Blimps isn't very likely to pick up a copy of the current TMNT comics unless an actual Mirage TMNT fan gives them a heart-to-heart about, "Hey, it's really not like that in the comics."

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Pretty true, but hopefully we're just talking about Volume 4 here (which even you yourself have said, Rose, isn't going to convert any TMNT non-believers either way).

This is true. Unless Peter decides to completely revamp the Vol. 4 we currently know, nothing is going to change. And there's no hope to bring in new readers when they're going to be lost and confused from the start.

The problem is really fundamental, and only worsened by the latest movie that reinforces TMNT as toddler fare in the public eye.

The problem is fundamental, but it has nothing to do with the movie and/or your personal opinion of it.