The cgi movie that was turned down

[Roseangelo]

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

We both think and want the same thing we just have a different way of portraying it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

We both think and want the same thing we just have a different way of portraying it.

You're probably right.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

I don't see anything stopping Mirage from promoting serious Turtles, if 4kids wants to promote turtles to kids, let them it's their job, it's Mirage responsibilty to keep the older fans happy, 4kids wasn't going to stop them from doing the direct to dvd project or tell them to cease publishing their comics. You are correct in saying Mirage hasn't done anything to promote the series as anything other then a kids property, but that problem existed before 4kids came into the picture and will probably be the same when they're gone.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

10-15 years from now you will still have kid series.

[Kendamu]

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder. Even those who wanted to see Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang that I've talked to would've still liked it if the Shredder was in it but not the other OT villains.

Put the Shredder in a TMNT movie and people will watch it. From there, Mirage or whoever can do whatever they want in terms of kiddie or adult. People just wanna see TMNT vs. Shredder.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder. Even those who wanted to see Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang that I've talked to would've still liked it if the Shredder was in it but not the other OT villains.

I thought it was a bit of a misstep not including the Shredder in the movie (more then just a few seconds of a drawing), after 14 years away from the movies, older fans wanted to see the Shredder. A good way to satisfy those fans, as well as a way to move beyond him, would have been to open the movie with the "final" battle between Shredder and the turtles, a good 6-10 minute fight to open the movie (a better alternative then the clunky battle flashback). That would have been enough to satisfy the "Where's the Shredder?" crowd.


But from reading most of the reviews, both good and bad, the biggest problem with the villains in TMNT were that they were not very well developed, in particular the real main villains, the stone generals, who only had a few lines in the entire movie, are not seen much outside their monster capture montage, and don't even have a proper endfight with the turtles.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

I don't see anything stopping Mirage from promoting serious Turtles,

There's plenty preventing it. Namely, the very public perception of TMNT as kiddy tripe, furthered by stuff like the latest movie and Fast Forward (the entire 4Kids series and its toy line can be pretty much lumped in here as well, but I respect the approximately 40% comic book attention paid there... taken about as far as it can go in a children's cartoon -- which is, despite what many would have you believe, very much still a children's cartoon).

if 4kids wants to promote turtles to kids, let them it's their job,

No, ****'em, they're holding back any kind of true adaptation of the TMNT source material. Though I understand the basic principle behind putting dollars in wallets.

it's Mirage responsibilty to keep the older fans happy,

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's their responsibility -- it's not their responsibility to do anything, really -- but if anyone, it's them that is holding the reins.

4kids wasn't going to stop them from doing the direct to dvd project

Well, now do we really know this? Obviously they weren't holding them over a barrel or anything, but 4Kids and their 3rd party deal merchandising deal has them in a kind of position to dictate terms like... "You do X project gritty, we ain't makin' any toys of it," vs. "You kiddify it real good like, we'll make some toys and you'n I will make some dough."

But I don't claim to be any expert in the goings-on there.

or tell them to cease publishing their comics.

No one's claiming they are. That's neither here nor there.

You are correct in saying Mirage hasn't done anything to promote the series as anything other then a kids property, but that problem existed before 4kids came into the picture

Aside from the comic book medium itself, you're actually very right. It's unfortunate.

and will probably be the same when they're gone.

That remains to be seen. Though I find myself inherently cynical, I do hold out hope that when 4Kids is dead and gone there may be more ballsy production/studios out there willing to push the envelope.

There may not be. Who knows.

10-15 years from now you will still have kid series.

A very real, very possible scenario. I hope not. I truly, truly hope not. In 10-15 years let's check back.

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder.

Now stop right there, you're not talking about the "adult crowd"... you're talking about, "Former TMNT geeks who miss the old TMNT cartoon in the 80s/90s."

And who cares what they think? (divorce yourself from TMNT Fanboy Mode for a moment)

No illusions about it, a proper TMNT movie needs to exist/be marketed/thrive on its own laurels.

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass without TPTB ramming kiddy rubbish down our collective throats for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish long enough to get back to what the source material was all about.

[Krang]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

Batman is a pretty poor example.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think it's the most valid example out there, if you kind of put aside the Batman Explosion that later kind of happened in the 90s/now.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the 60s Batman series being -- for a generation, in popular culture -- the most recognizeable incarnation of Batman.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison there. Batman was a very popular comic book character that had been around for nearly 30 years before the 60s Batman show aired. The TMNT had only been around in an independent comic for 3 years and were known to relatively few people when the original cartoon aired. Therefore, most people would have had their first impressions of Batman as a serious comic book character, but most people would have had their first impressions of the TMNT as humorous cartoon characters.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish.

One problem with your proposal: You're overestimating your audience. You have to face the fact that the very concept of walking, talking turtles practicing ninjutsu is completely ridiculous to most people no matter how they are marketed. Add onto that the fact that, as I mentioned in another thread, most teens and young adults don't take anything seriously, and you'll probably end up with a movie that people would only see to make fun of, which would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion, the best chance Mirage fans have of a dark, serious movie is a direct-to-DVD movie catered specifically to Mirage fans.

[Kendamu]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Now stop right there, you're not talking about the "adult crowd"... you're talking about, "Former TMNT geeks who miss the old TMNT cartoon in the 80s/90s."

Yes, but at the very least I'm not including those posers who were born in 1993, strike up a conversation with me about how TMNT was so cool back in the day, and try to tell me off when I don't agree that the OT that they weren't even old enough to remember was the be-all-end-all of TMNT." Those are the guys who tend to give me trouble. The people who were actually there for the Turtlemania that took place between 1988 and 1991 or 1992 (pre-Power Rangers, essentially) are the ones I normally find who can live without Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady.

And who cares what they think? (divorce yourself from TMNT Fanboy Mode for a moment)

Nobody. Otherwise the OT would've appeared in CGI back in 2007.

No illusions about it, a proper TMNT movie needs to exist/be marketed/thrive on its own laurels.

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

I'd see it... and I'd laugh! "Ninja... Turtles?!" my mid-twenties self would say. "LOL," he ROFL'd as he went online to find out more about this dark comedy.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, though. I always found the TMNT to possess that Suda 51-esque level of humor/grit mix and I love it for that reason more than anything else. I just don't know how it would go over with Joe Average.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass without TPTB ramming kiddy rubbish down our collective throats for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish long enough to get back to what the source material was all about.

Or, at the very least, let today's kids who know the TMNT because of 2k3 and either don't know or simply dislike the OT because it's too goofy grow up a bit. Then, once Hollywood tries to cash in on their nostalgia another TMNT movie can come out that resembles it's comic roots even better than the original TMNT movie from 1990.

Either way, I can wait another 5 to 10 years to head back to the theater to see the Turtles. Right now I'm still bitter over this failed attempt at something faithful on the DTV front. Once they get it right for my TV, I'll start getting anxious about how I'm going to sneak my snacks into the theater again.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Krang

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison there. Batman was a very popular comic book character

When? Depending on when you're talking about, Batman was in dire straits as far as sales and threat danger.

I can produce the numbers, the years.

The TMNT had only been around in an independent comic for 3 years and were known to relatively few people when the original cartoon aired. Therefore, most people would have had their first impressions of Batman as a serious comic book character, but most people would have had their first impressions of the TMNT as humorous cartoon characters.

I think somewhere you think I posted, "Everyone's first impression of the TMNT was from the Mirage comics." Where did I post this? I didn't.

I'm agreeing with you, Krang -- for a particular generation or two, the Fred Wolf cartoon is the most recognizeable incarnation and probably where people would have formed their "first impressions."

But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.

One problem with your proposal: You're overestimating your audience. You have to face the fact that the very concept of walking, talking turtles practicing ninjutsu is completely ridiculous to most people no matter how they are marketed.

And a man dressing as a bat in a wetsuit isn't? A guy in a muscle suit painted red calling himself a Hellboy isn't?

You underestimate the audience. Especially in this day and age.

Add onto that the fact that, as I mentioned in another thread, most teens and young adults don't take anything seriously, and you'll probably end up with a movie that people would only see to make fun of, which would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion, the best chance Mirage fans have of a dark, serious movie is a direct-to-DVD movie catered specifically to Mirage fans.

The best chance? Probably.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

There's plenty preventing it. Namely, the very public perception of TMNT as kiddy tripe, furthered by stuff like the latest movie and Fast Forward (the entire 4Kids series and its toy line can be pretty much lumped in here as well, but I respect the approximately 40% comic book attention paid there... taken about as far as it can go in a children's cartoon -- which is, despite what many would have you believe, very much still a children's cartoon).

Just because there is a kids dedicated line for children doesn't mean there can't be anything produce for older fans, the fact that Mirage comics exist pretty much proves this. Marvel and DC have no problems in producing stuff for different demoghaphics, the amount of "kiddy tripe" based on Spider-Man and Batman alone could fill the Grand Canyon. And everything associated with Transformers is "kiddy tripe", so don't give me the excuse that can't produce more mature TMNT stuff, when the fact is they currently are.

No, ****'em, they're holding back any kind of true adaptation of the TMNT source material.

No, Gary and Peter are.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's their responsibility -- it's not their responsibility to do anything, really -- but if anyone, it's them that is holding the reins.

Umm.. if they are holding the reins, then who's responsibility is it? If I owned a resturant it is ultimately my responsibility to see that the patrons are happy and satisfied, not the cooks, the waiters, the valet, or even a third party financial backer, but me the owner. Of course being the owner I could ignore my responsibility, and then watch my resturant collapse around me and be sent off to the poor house, but as owner that is my right as well.

Well, now do we really know this? Obviously they weren't holding them over a barrel or anything, but 4Kids and their 3rd party deal merchandising deal has them in a kind of position to dictate terms like... "You do X project gritty, we ain't makin' any toys of it," vs. "You kiddify it real good like, we'll make some toys and you'n I will make some dough."

From Murphy's Blog:

"Yet even with this reduction (in whatever form it might take) in the CGI running time, the budget didn’t drop that substantially. And once it was determined that Imagi “quite possibly but not definitely” would deliver the completed film in September 2009 (they would shoot for that date, but there are almost always potential production problems to every film that could extend completion time), things began to look even more dicey. After all, the actual anniversary is in May, not September, and while that difference in a few months may not seem like that big of a deal, the prospect of the film coming due even a bit later in the year, beyond September, did not bode well for the ancillary licensing program that would circle the DVD’s release, all of which has to be choreographed as tightly as possible so as not to create a situation where licensees lose money should they release their product earlier than the film’s on-shelf sale date.

Given all this, Mirage CEO Gary R made the recommendation to not go forward, and thus Peter Laird made the subsequent decision to pull the plug on the project. "

Nothing about 4kids stepping in and throwing a monkey wrench into the works(and Murphy wouldn't be shy to say so if they did), just a business decision made by Gary and Laird.

No one's claiming they are. That's neither here nor there.

If they are as powerful and influential as you say they are, why shouldn't they step in and tell them to stop publishing their "adult" comics and replace them with adaptions of Fast Forward?

That remains to be seen. Though I find myself inherently cynical, I do hold out hope that when 4Kids is dead and gone there may be more ballsy production/studios out there willing to push the envelope.

There may not be. Who knows.

More then likely, once 4kids has squeezed every nickle they can out of TMNT, and 4kids and Mirage go their separate ways, another licensing company will step in to take on the turtles, because the turtles as a kids property makes alot of cash, it's just that simple. If you want a more gritty adult themed TMNT tv show, then you should hope that when Mirage inks this new deal they leave open the possibilty of being able to do a tv show for cable, independent of any kid friendly show being produce by the new licensor (assuming they can't currently do this under the 4kids contract).

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

Given the current climate for movies these days, I would assume such a movie would be either a schlocky B-movie that should have gone straight to dvd like "Snakes on a Plane" or an awful parody movie similar to "Meet the Spartans" either of which I can do without.

But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.

I'm baffled anyone can not know Batman was a comicbook character, I never read a Batman comic in my life until the Tim Burton movie, but I knew he was a comicbook character, and only had the 60's live-action show, the Super Friends cartoon, and a guest appereance on Scooby-Doo as a reference for the character.

[Krang]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

When? Depending on when you're talking about, Batman was in dire straits as far as sales and threat danger.

I can produce the numbers, the years.

You cut off the quote right before it gave you the answer. I was talking about the period of time between when Batman first showed up in comics (1939) and when the TV show first aired (1966).

I think somewhere you think I posted, "Everyone's first impression of the TMNT was from the Mirage comics." Where did I post this? I didn't.

I'm agreeing with you, Krang -- for a particular generation or two, the Fred Wolf cartoon is the most recognizeable incarnation and probably where people would have formed their "first impressions."

And I never said that you did. You're splitting up my post and taking parts of it out of context. The only reason I brought that up was to enforce the point that Batman was familiar as a mostly serious comic book character for many years by the time the TV show aired, and the TMNT weren't. On top of that, the Batman TV series only lasted a little over 2 years, while the original cartoon lasted 10 years, and could have potentially lasted longer since it wasn't pulled for lack of ratings. It's really a stretch to compare the two.

But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.

Again, I never said that, although I'm sure the number of people who were familiar with the Batman comics in the 60s, 70s, and 80s is far, far greater than the number of people who were familiar with the Mirage comics when the original cartoon aired.

And a man dressing as a bat in a wetsuit isn't? A guy in a muscle suit painted red calling himself a Hellboy isn't?

You underestimate the audience. Especially in this day and age.

Humans in costumes may be silly to some, but that's nothing compared to turtles. The fact that they take themselves so seriously makes it even more ridiculous to those not familiar with the characters.

[Vincent]

Here's approximately how I would promote an R- or PG-13-rated TMNT movie (I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but whatever): I would make four teasers. One for each turtle, each showing who the character is and a hint of where they're going emotionally in the movie, followed by a voice over explaining where the movie comes from over quick cuts showing why it's awesome.

Here's for example how Mikey's teaser might go:

We sweep through NYC at night, as we hear MIKEY over the pulsating war drums slowly rising out of the sound of the streets.
MIKEY: New York City. It's like a jungle sometimes. Other times, it's more like an ocean. Cop cars and cats cry like whales, you practically have to swim through the smog, and the further down you get, the weirder the creatures.
We stop on Mikey, standing on a rooftop. Behind him stands RAPH with an annoyed look on his face.
MIKEY: Aren't I philosophical?
Raph takes a swing at Mikey's head.
Mikey grabs Raph's fist right before it hits him and pins him against a wall.
MIKEY: DON'T hit me.

LEO's bloody sword pulls out of a FOOT NINJA's chest.
VO: Forget the cartoons.
DON's bo sweeps across a foot ninja's legs.
VO: See Eastman & Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as they were originally intended...
Raph's sai penetrates a foot ninja's eye.
VO: ...in an all new (?)-rated [cel-animated/CGI/live-action/rotoscope/whatever] [DVD movie/feature film/three-part miniseries/whatever].
Mikey, nunchakus spinning, rushes at something off screen (or the camera).
VO: Inspired by the 1984 independent comic book series from Mirage Studios.
The SHREDDER puts on his signature bladed arm gear.
The original "Eastman & Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja TURTLES" logo appears, white on black, somewhat cracked.
VO: Coming soon.
Leo's bloody sword appears inside the text.


Who wouldn't wanna see that?

[Andrew NDB]

That'd be bad-ass, but that'd totally be a red-band trailer.

R just isn't realistic (unless we're hoping for a direct-to-DVD film, which I certainly wouldn't necessarily shun).

I still like my old, "Lean, Green, and Back on the Mutha****in' Screen" tagline (WB did, too, apparently, as it was the tagline on TMNT Part 4 posters minus the Mutha****in')... but I have no illusions this would be for an alternate universe where an R-rated TMNT film could be made with no toddler hurdles.

PG-13 is the only way to go.

[syk_skillz]

Yeah pretty much we need a DTV for the turtles
As much as I dislike Anime having it drawn in this style would bring in more views for it. This way it could easily be seen to be different then the Saturday morning cartoon right away. To me it really wouldn't need to be any more gritty then the 1990 film since if it was released today it would have certainly been PG-13. A R rated movie isn't really all that realistic as it would cut sales drastically and really wouldn't add a whole lot more to what could be done storyline wise then PG-13 besides for sex, gore and explicit language which does not need to be included for a good story. I find that PG-13 to be the perfect medium as the turtles can bypass using shell instead of hell and all the other kiddified sayings for a more realistic feel for it. PG-13 would also allow for a little blood shed as well. A good example of this is what Justice League: New Frontier was like.

[turkishproverb]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That'd be bad-ass, but that'd totally be a red-band trailer.

R just isn't realistic (unless we're hoping for a direct-to-DVD film, which I certainly wouldn't necessarily shun).

I still like my old, "Lean, Green, and Back on the Mutha****in' Screen" tagline (WB did, too, apparently, as it was the tagline on TMNT Part 4 posters minus the Mutha****in')... but I have no illusions this would be for an alternate universe where an R-rated TMNT film could be made with no toddler hurdles.

PG-13 is the only way to go.

In all fairness, PG-13 would be nice simply so we didn't have to deal with a director/producers adding things that don't fit in the movie just for the heck of it. I can't tell you how many good movies I've seen ruined by tacked on "R" scenes. Granted, they can be used to great effect, but they're often abused.

[TheAnimatedSeries]

I remember some flash cartoon series some guy was making several years ago that was kind of sweet.

Best possibility I think would be if TMNT were to never have revived in '03, gotten more obscure, then a Spawn style HBO series could have existed.

[turkishproverb]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

the CEO isn't helping any.

[cup-mikey-gertha]

Originally Posted by The Terror of Death

Taken from the 5th turtle blog:

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
I am Raphael, ninja turtle... and master Splinter chose me for this task...

WIDER as he prepares to leap.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to deliver a message of challenge...

WIDER as he leaps off the building ledge into the night air.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to the Shredder.

Ooh! I loved this part from the comic book version. Brings back a lot of memories. Now that I'm writing this down, I suddeny feel sad and near to tears (breathe.... OK ... just regain my composure... breathe in... breathe out... ). This version could have been so much better if not the best of all the movies. Sigh.

THanks for the info, Terror.