Have the writers of TNM ever weighed in on the continuity issues?

[johnboy3434]

I know that the continuity issues of TNM are an age-old discussion among Turtle fans, second only to "why the Hell did they make it in the first place?". I was just curious if the writers on the show actually intended for it to be a follow-up to the first three films, or if they were just doing their own thing and not paying attention to any prior works. Has anyone ever said anything, or is it all fan speculation?

[Powder]

Well originally The Next Mutation was the title to a proposed 4th TMNT film in 1994. Due to the low ticket sales & overall crap quality of the third film it was canned then later picked up as a TV due to it being cheaper & potentially better for marketing toys & the like. To my knowledge, the series picks up where the third movie left off, hence using the same lair.

[ToTheNines]

Welcome to the Drome!

Well, I'd say that the writers kinda just did their own thing with the show... but the producers and who ever else had creative control over the concept and over-all design of the show had based some stuff off of the movie continuity.

But to me, canon comes down to personal preference. I just believe what I want.

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Welcome to the Drome!

Well, I'd say that the writers kinda just did their own thing with the show... but the producers and who ever else had creative control over the concept and over-all design of the show had based some stuff off of the movie continuity.

But to me, canon comes down to personal preference. I just believe what I want.

Hmm... so there's never really been official confirmation one way or the other? Too bad. Anyway, as far as "canon" goes, Turtles Forever basically established that everything is canon in some form or another, what with basically every incarnation besides TNM (if you consider it separate from the first three movies) being featured in the multiverse scene.

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the welcome!

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

Hmm... so there's never really been official confirmation one way or the other? Too bad. Anyway, as far as "canon" goes, Turtles Forever basically established that everything is canon in some form or another, what with basically every incarnation besides TNM (if you consider it separate from the first three movies) being featured in the multiverse scene.

Well, I mean... everything's canon, but not everything is of the same continuity (even if they do cross over).

Anyways, I think Eastman has said that it follows the first three movies. Also, some people like to think the the 2007 movie is a sequel to the 3 films, but ignores TNM.

[CyberCubed]

They never explain why Shredder is "alive" and "non-mutated" in Next Mutation though, assuming it was meant to continue from the first 3 films.

I just think of it as a loose continuity. Overall the show now feels non-canon in general, almost as if it never happened.

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Well, I mean... everything's canon, but not everything is of the same continuity (even if they do cross over).

Anyways, I think Eastman has said that it follows the first three movies. Also, some people like to think the the 2007 movie is a sequel to the 3 films, but ignores TNM.

Eastman himself? Wow. Would you happen to remember where you read this, or is it lost to the mysts of time?

That kind of makes sense. In TMNT07, Mikey makes a "your mom" joke, and Donny makes the obvious "she'd be your mom, too" remark. The implication is that they are blood brothers. It's been a while since I've watched TNM, but wasn't it explicitly stated that they were only adopted brothers in the series?

That kind of sucks, though, because TMNT07 would otherwise make an elegant segue into TNM by (heavily, HEAVILY) implying that Shredder was alive, despite the incident at the docks. Then, in TNM, poof! He's alive and leading the foot clan again. This would also explain why Venus wasn't mentioned in TMNT07: they hadn't met her yet. Of course, the blood relation aspect kills the whole idea, but I was just brainstorming.

[ToTheNines]

Very interesting, I've never heard anyone suggest that TMNT07 could take place before TNM.

There's also the issue of the sewer lairs, and the origin date of the music heard the movie. But it's still an interesting thought.

[sdp]

I watched The Next Mutation last fall, if you click my sig you go to my review thread were I go into detail including continuity.


Its never been made official, the fourth movie was supposed to be TNM is as close as we'll ever get. TNM however was clearly made as a sequel to the three live action movies. Since TNM is seen as the red headed stepchild by fans, the fandom tries to deny that its in continuity with their beloved movie.

The turtles have the same personalities as they do in the movies which were a bit different than the cartoon ones like Raph being angry instead of sarcastic. They live in the Subway of the second and third movies. The Foot wear the same or very similar outfits from the first/second movies. Splinter has his comic origin with the sliced ear and not his cartoon origin. April cameos as a reporter something only shared by the movie and cartoon universe. The show is also more "realistic" like the movies.

Not explaining how Shredder survived the dock incident is not a big deal IMO, the second movie never explained how he survived his first death either and that was a much more violent death than the dock one which he could have easily survived this.


Now TMNT 2007 is NOT in continuity with the first three movies. I really wanted the movie to be in continuity but when you watch it you realize its an entirely different universe. The prequel comic and tie-in books show how much different this universe is to the first three movies which were more "realistic" in setting while this universe is as sci-fi heavy as the original cartoon. In the movie universe the Silver Sentry exists and they fought the Triceratons, do you really see either of those things have happened in the universe of the first three movies?
Thats not counting that April is not a reporter and the turtles personalities are different from the previous three movies. Only thing 2007 has is the trophy room which in the end was just for fans and nothing else. I mean Shredders helmet and the canister mean nothing since EVERY turtles universe has those things. The Time Scepter is the only real connection however no reason why the TMNT 2007 universe couldn't have had their own time scepter story, after all the Silver Sentry a character that had only appeared in TMNT 2k3 is canon to this universe and I don't see people trying to fit both those universes together (hmmm could it?). Even the director never said it was a sequel to the live action movies, he always said it was if anything a loose sequel of the first movie that all you needed to know was that Shredder had been defeated (which has happened in most TMNT continuities). I really wanted the movie to be in continuity it the past films but after I saw it I realized they just couldn't be.

I've thought about TMNT 2007 taking place before TNM but like I mentioned I didn't like shoehorning the fourth movie for the sake of being a movie since its pretty much its own universe that doesn't fit well with the previous three movies.

Fun Fact, TNM b makes the entire 17+ seasons of Power Rangers in continuity with the first movie, another reason why the fandom will never accept the truth.

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Very interesting, I've never heard anyone suggest that TMNT07 could take place before TNM.

There's also the issue of the sewer lairs, and the origin date of the music heard the movie. But it's still an interesting thought.

See, the way I figured it was... okay, if I remember correctly, the turtles are 15 in the first film, right? For the title of TMNT07 to apply, that leaves us around 5 years in which to fit the four films. The second film can't be more than a week or so after the first, since Shredder crawls out of the trash alive and under his own power. The third film can take place at just about any point after that and before TMNT07, but lets say it's less than a year after the first two.

After that, Splinter sends Leo on his quest. I don't recall if we ever learned how long he was SUPPOSED to be gone, but he stayed a year longer than that. Let's say he was supposed to be gone for two years, and stayed three. He returns for the events of TMNT07, and the turtles are 19, so still technically "teenage". It's been ages since I've seen TNM, so I can't remember if they're supposed to be teenagers or not, but they DID drop it from the title. If they still have to be teenagers, just shorten the amount of time Leo was supposed to have been gone or the time between the second and third films.

In addition to the blood relationship problem, though, the lair is problematic. I have a hard time remembering what the lair looked like in the first film, but I don't remember it being as big and sprawling as the one from the fourth film. It could be that the turtles found a new lair, but returned to the subway as a precaution when Karai tipped them off about Shredder being alive (since the reason they went to the subway in the first place was to hide from the Foot).

Like I said, though, this is just fanwank on my part, and it's notable that Turtles Forever seems to place the first three films and the fourth in different continuities, despite the shrine at the end and there being no real reason it can't fit.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Powder

Well originally The Next Mutation was the title to a proposed 4th TMNT film in 1994. Due to the low ticket sales & overall crap quality of the third film it was canned then later picked up as a TV due to it being cheaper & potentially better for marketing toys & the like.

The Next Mutation movie was an entirely different concept which just happened to share the same name as what would later be a tv series. One of many concepts Kevin & Peter were working on this had the turtles and Splinter go through a secondary mutations and gain weird powers.

After the tv series was canned there was talk about a movie based on the Next Mutation tv series as well as a "City at War" which incorported Venus and Next Mutation cartoon. Of course whether this is just rumour or not and if true how true is obviously up for debate.

As for the original question...to be be honest you can go back and forth with arguments of whether it's movie continuity or not. The certainly plenty of valid arguments to support both viewpoints.

Same lair from the movies, Mike not having his chuks due to giving the to Mitsu etc and against you have Shredder being alive and not Super Shredder, no Tatsu, April, Casey, generaly different tone.

In the end you could probably neatly fit it into a new continuity that is similar to movies but not explicitly part of that canon just like the cgi movie. I really don't think anyone in a position of power gives a crap about it to ever incorporate it or any of the characters in anything else....so *shugs shoulders

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by sdp

The show is also more "realistic" like the movies.

That is bullsh*t. Good point on everything else though.

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

it's notable that Turtles Forever seems to place the first three films and the fourth in different continuities, despite

Not neccessarily true. They showed about 6 or 7 different artists renditions of the Mirage Universe which is all in the same continuity regardless of artist/writer (except for the Mark Martin, Hedden/McWeeney, and Zulli stuff).

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Not neccessarily true. They showed about 6 or 7 different artists renditions of the Mirage Universe which is all in the same continuity regardless of artist/writer (except for the Mark Martin, Hedden/McWeeney, and Zulli stuff).

I stand corrected, then. I know it's sacrilege as a turtles fan, but I haven't been able to bring myself to read through the Mirage continuity. I read that there were a bunch of crossovers and one-shots and collecting them all (physically or otherwise) seemed like a ton of effort just to get the full story, especially since I heard that the story isn't even finished, yet.

[sdp]

Lets not forget that TMNT 2007 takes place around that era while the first movie clearly takes place sometime in the late 80s/very early 90s. The turtles being grown up by the time TNM airs is a logical timeline, TMNT 2007 not so much.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Overall the show now feels non-canon in general, almost as if it never happened.

No less non-canon than the archie and image series.And as non-canon as 2k3 since it'll never be referenced ever again. And now that Nick owns TMNT I'm sure Venus is not out of bounds anymore.

Originally Posted by Galactus

and against you have Shredder being alive and not Super Shredder, no Tatsu, April, Casey, generaly different tone.

Again Shredder got a worse death in the first movie and he survived no reason why super shredder couldn't survive such a wimpy death. He just got demutated at the end since his dose wasnt that big and he used it all up. Tatsu got taken by the police or killed by shredder for failing him. Not too big of plotholes really. Casey was set to appear in the second season and April cameos as a reporter in the first sedason. The tone is not that different from the first three movies. Its never as serious as the first movie but its never as goofy as the third movie. Closer to the second movie more than anything.

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by sdp

Again Shredder got a worse death in the first movie and he survived no reason why super shredder couldn't survive such a wimpy death. He just got demutated at the end since his dose wasnt that big and he used it all up. Tatsu got taken by the police or killed by shredder for failing him. Not too big of plotholes really. Casey was set to appear in the second season and April cameos as a reporter in the first sedason. The tone is not that different from the first three movies. Its never as serious as the first movie but its never as goofy as the third movie. Closer to the second movie more than anything.

Err... one does not just spontaneously de-mutate. If we're grasping for a reason why he isn't Super Shredder, then say that the Foot members who rescued him gathered up the spilled donuts from construction site to help counter the ooze. It should have been clear to everyone watching that the donuts were supposed to do something to help the turtles in the fight, and the sight of Tokka and Rahzar de-mutated after the chaos was over would have filled in the blanks for observant Foot agents.

But really, the fact remains that, if TNM was indeed meant to continue from the films, it did a poor job of it. I am really interested in seeing that Eastman quote, though. In my mind, that would settle the whole thing, plot oddities or not.

[sdp]

I don't think there is an Eastman quote, besides the fail concepts of a TNM movie. We'll never get a confirmation but you can tell it was meant to be by watching it. Its the best you'll get.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by johnboy3434

Hmm... so there's never really been official confirmation one way or the other?

Yes. From Eastman, www.ninjaturtles.com, and pretty much a ton of press releases at the time.

[MrPliggins]

The only reason TNM was made was because Venus was in it. It was Fox's ultimatum for Kevin and Peter; have a 5th female turtle or no show. They reluctantly agreed. The fourth movie was going to have a 5th turtle, but not Venus.

[Koi]

Originally Posted by MrPliggins

The only reason TNM was made was because Venus was in it. It was Fox's ultimatum for Kevin and Peter; have a 5th female turtle or no show. They reluctantly agreed. The fourth movie was going to have a 5th turtle, but not Venus.

KIRBY!

Well anyhow

Not neccessarily true. They showed about 6 or 7 different artists renditions of the Mirage Universe which is all in the same continuity regardless of artist/writer (except for the Mark Martin, Hedden/McWeeney, and Zulli stuff).

Arn't all the pictures shown just different dimmesions? So it could be like the temporal dimension of thought thing going on. So it doesn't really matter how canon it was in that sense.

[johnboy3434]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yes. From Eastman, www.ninjaturtles.com, and pretty much a ton of press releases at the time.

I looked through that site and found no such confirmation. Could you point me to it?