The episode idea thread (Turtle Torture Edition)

[victory_angel]

A little more then 6 actually

Or that's how they trapped Donnie. April didn't want to be left behind again. Bebop and Rocksteady see her and realizes the girl must be important to the turtles some how or they have an innocent person to force the Turtles out of hiding. Donnie is captured trying to help her and the retromutagen is taken from him.

This is somewhat true. April is incapacitated when she is glued to that wall and Donnie is stunned unconscious. Bebop then finds the Retromutagen that Donnie had with him and takes it, but doesn't really know what it is.

And Mikey does say "Okay don't hurt 'em." Before he suggests that they talk this over. So that implies that Bebop and Rocksteady may have captured Donnie or Donnie and Raph and were arguing about maybe disposing of them or how to dispose of them now that they had the Retromutagen.

And Mikey is trying to sort of be a nice guy partially as a distraction so Leo can free their brothers and get them to safety. But also as a way of trying to connect with them as people kinda in a "I know your victims of mutation and you want to be human again. But look on the bright side you guys can have new identities."

Both Donnie and Raph were captured and locked in the van, but so were April and Casey. Rocksteady and Bebop were telling Leo and Mikey that they would kill the two humans if they didn't come out into the open.

I doubt they will get their hands on the mutagen, but they will certainly expose Donatello as the creator of the retromutagen and lead the Turtles into creating the Turtle Blimp.

As for Karai I don't think the Turtles will succeed if giving her retromutagen either, or if they do it will stabilize her mutation. But she will still have the ability to transform into a mutant.

Rocksteady and Bebop don't know the Turtles well enough to know which one made it. Particularly since all three groups had retromutagen with them. However when Mikey sees Bebop has Donnie's spray gun, he blurts out that it was retromutagen. This technically exposes Donnie as the creator of the Retromutagen, as it wouldn't take much for the rest of Foot Clan to figure out which turtle they need to target. Particularly Sockman as he knows Donnie has created retromutagen.


I also noticed you didn't tally up Bitsy's predictions.

[neatoman]

How about... Baxter becomes human again but fails miserably at something, Shredder wants to mutate him again but Hun object based on the fact that it would be pointless since he can just become human again. Besides, another mutation might damage his mind, the one thing Baxter has to offer.

Shredder asks if Hun has a better idea, he does. Shredder agrees to let Hun do whatever it is he has in store for Baxter, Hun drags Baxter off. Baxter shudders to think what he'll do to him.

Cut to that slaughterhouse set they had during Tiger Claw's return. Hun pulls out some tools and picks out an electric saw, Baxter asks if Hun will torture him but Hun says no, he says that what he has in store for Baxter is more "permanent" as he revs up the saw. Black/white ending shot of Hun with the saw, smiling.

The next time we see Baxter he's missing an arm or something.

[Tarris Vaal]

Sorry Bitsy! - though I could only find the general predictions you made rather than episode specific ones - still Dimension travel

How about... Baxter becomes human again but fails miserably at something, Shredder wants to mutate him again but Hun object based on the fact that it would be pointless since he can just become human again. Besides, another mutation might damage his mind, the one thing Baxter has to offer.

Shredder asks if Hun has a better idea, he does. Shredder agrees to let Hun do whatever it is he has in store for Baxter, Hun drags Baxter off. Baxter shudders to think what he'll do to him.

Cut to that slaughterhouse set they had during Tiger Claw's return. Hun pulls out some tools and picks out an electric saw, Baxter asks if Hun will torture him but Hun says no, he says that what he has in store for Baxter is more "permanent" as he revs up the saw. Black/white ending shot of Hun with the saw, smiling.

The next time we see Baxter he's missing an arm or something.

That would be .... a spectacularly dark turn of events for this show! That said, especially given its past record, I could well imagine Hun (or another minion) threatening to do something like that without it actually getting that far.

[victory_angel]

Leo doesn't seem to appreciate Donnie's efforts all that much. I mean yeah this version of Donatello is a combo of 1987 Donnie and 2k3 Donnie. So naturally Donnie does desire some acknowledgement from his bros for his efforts. Unfortunately the other three turtles seem to find Donnie's technological skills as useful *at times*, but as far as Raph and Leo are concerned Donnie's inventions are more trouble then their worth.

Being a high intellect Donnie has a hard time relating to his bros at times. Which adds to the frustration between Donnie and his bros as Donatello has to repeat himself so they understand what he's saying, or they understand it but don't see the value in what he does have to contribute to the mission.

And there was an episode where April calls out Leo and Raph (I know she was calling out all three of the Turtles, but she was being very pointed with Leo and Raph) about their lack of appreciation for their younger brothers. In that situation it was a lack of appreciation for Mikey.

As far as we know that whole debacle between Donnie and Leo has not been resolved. So perhaps now that the Kraang have been defeated for supposed good, Leo is now focused getting vengeance on the Foot Clan because as long as the Shredder lives they would never have any peace. And he feels justice needs to be served for what has been done to Karai, done to Splinter, done to himself, and their entire family.

All the other Turtles, April, and Splinter try to convince Leo that the Shredder's defeat will come, but he can't let the desire for vengeance consume him. Leo however takes their statements wrong way and accuses them of being afraid of doing what should have been done long ago.

When Donnie is captured Leo treats the whole thing like nothing of importance was lost and if Donnie was caught that was his own fault for being distracted with his delusions.

April then calls out Leo and tells them that Donnie does so much that they never seem to appreciate him for. Mikey and Casey both agree with this. Leo angrily storms off, Raph goes after Leo and explains about Donnie never forgave himself about the argument from the invasion.

The turtles, April, and Casey go off to find an rescue Donnie. Everyone finds Karai locked up which ticks Leo off, and he's even more angry when he see's what has been done to his brother. And Stockman taunting Donnie about his predicament.

(Paralleling the small moment in Return to New York where Raph is commenting how he wants to squash Stockman and Leo puts his arm around Raph's shoulders in commiseration.)

During the fight Leo hears Shredder commenting about how his anger is fueling his attacks and that's improving his fighting skills. While in the back of his mind he remembers Splinters warnings that anger is not an ally and that helps him open his eyes to the fact he is letting his anger control his actions.

Shredder sees this and taunts Leo about how his brother is useless as a warrior and that the weak were meant to be discarded. Leo however answers that Shredder should look at himself first before declaring weakness on others.

While they are escaping the Turtles and Co are hard pressed to get out. Raph sacrifices himself to his family can escape. The Turtles leave the city knowing they are going to need to go somewhere they can recover both mentally and physically from whats happened. Leo tells everyone he's sorry about what he has been doing and had taken everyone for granted. The others forgive him for it and acknowledges that Raph is counting on them.

Ending moment where Raph has been brainwashed or the brain washing process is just getting started.

[Meliwen]

^^^^^ I like that idea, that Leo and Donnie still have some unresolved tension from the season 2 finale, which is made worse by Leo's unresolved tension with the Shredder, and having that come to a head when Donnie is kidnapped and quite possibly hurt. It would be nice if Leo and Donnie could have that bit of interaction and conflict with each other.

Shredder sets a trap to get some retromutagen from the turtles by kidnapping Donnie. Stuff happens, some Leo/Shredder interaction, and eventually we come to a big fight whereupon Karai is freed and is either cured or is now able to be in full control of her mutant form without any worries of losing her mind. After Karai is in her right mind, Shredder and she have a talk/fight. What hopes Shredder may have had before of bringing Karai back to his side are gone completely once he is fully convinced of how she hates him.

Extremely incensed at these turn of events he says something like, "Hamato Yoshi, you have taken my daughter from me. Now I shall take your son!" And that's the incentive for brainwashing Raph, as opposed to just killing or physically hurting him. He believes Splinter turned Karai against him. So he decides that Splinter should see how it feels to have his son turn against him.

Karai maybe even joins up with the turtles to even the odds against the Foot Clan, since they're down by one and the Foot Clan has quite a few mutants to deal with now. (I was thinking she could potentially join the Mutanimals or go her own way to clear her head, discover who she really is and appear only sporadically, but I don't think she should be done with Shredder that quickly and I don't really see the Mutanimals hanging around too much.) Renet comes in later and helps during the Dark Raph stuff, maybe she's the one who actually undoes the brainwashing, if indeed that's how Raph goes bad. April tries, but it turns out it's too much for her/she can't do it.

[Tarris Vaal]

Well, well, well

(Though I imagine most people here know of this by now - Spoiler alert)

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51447


That certainly ups the stakes for the comics and importantly TMNT as a franchise. The comics have always been more 'adult' aimed than the tv shows and movies, but with that said Nick's Turtles - particularly in season 3 - have been pushing the boundaries of what they could get away with in what is nominally a childrens show.

While I have personal reservations that Nick's executives would be quite this ballsy, it does pose the question of 'Could they?'.

The potential fallout and storylines that could come from a similar (though presumably less brutal) version of this occurrence could be really epic. I dont want to say too much until the news has had a few more days to sink in across the TMNT fandom (dont want to spoil it for anyone after all ) but to say that he is set up for a fall of this magnitude would be putting it mildly.

Could Nicktoons show follow the same way?

[Vicky82]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

Well, well, well

(Though I imagine most people here know of this by now - Spoiler alert)

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51447


That certainly ups the stakes for the comics and importantly TMNT as a franchise. The comics have always been more 'adult' aimed than the tv shows and movies, but with that said Nick's Turtles - particularly in season 3 - have been pushing the boundaries of what they could get away with in what is nominally a childrens show.

While I have personal reservations that Nick's executives would be quite this ballsy, it does pose the question of 'Could they?'.

The potential fallout and storylines that could come from a similar (though presumably less brutal) version of this occurrence could be really epic. I dont want to say too much until the news has had a few more days to sink in across the TMNT fandom (dont want to spoil it for anyone after all ) but to say that he is set up for a fall of this magnitude would be putting it mildly.

Could Nicktoons show follow the same way?

I was thinking this myself. If they did do it in the cartoon, it will have to done off screen and obviously not graphic.

[Ashwolf]

this wouldnt really be visually graphic but more implied graphic, anyway something nick might do if they push the boundaries enough is have during a fight, a rocket sized laser beam fires at some1 and once the beam stops, there isnt anything left but smoking dirt and cloth/metal

[victory_angel]

With the really really brutal stuff they wouldn't be animated because of kids show standards. Such as Slash and Destroy we just see Slash nabbing Donnie and Mikey, but we never see them get the beat down itself. We just see the end result of what had been done to them. Probably because the animation for it would be over budget and also the beat down in itself would likely be brutal which would be toeing the line of their TV rating. And even if they could animate it, it wouldn't be as brutal as people feel it could have been due to the rating constraints. So it was best left to the imagination of the creatives (I.E. Fanfic writers and Fan Artists.) to bring out what they feel happened.

So if they had something like this situation that's currently in the IDW we would have the turtles come across Donnie or whoever maybe in the midst of suffering or the aftermath of what had been done.

[Tarris Vaal]

Anything on screen would have to be heavily implied rather than outright shown absolutely - but the actual events themselves could still occur.

Spoiler:

We've been guessing for ages now that Donatello was heading for a severe beating and I'd say that because of the Apritello and Retromutagen arcs the Nicktoons Donatello has more to lose than most iterations. The fact that its B+R who do this in IDW and that they are new, raw and still largely an unknown quantity in Nicktoons (and potentially far more vicious than most of Shredder's minions) adds more weight to that possibility.

I doubt we would get a complete copy of the scene, but its interesting to think that this does open the door for something similar occurring.

On a slightly different note - awesome ideas from Bitsy on the season 3 discussion thread for Casey vs the Underworld!

I think its likely too early for major Dark Raph set up yet, but I love the idea that its Casey who is coerced into giving up Donatello (either to save his family or April)

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

Anything on screen would have to be heavily implied rather than outright shown absolutely - but the actual events themselves could still occur.

Spoiler:

We've been guessing for ages now that Donatello was heading for a severe beating and I'd say that because of the Apritello and Retromutagen arcs the Nicktoons Donatello has more to lose than most iterations. The fact that its B+R who do this in IDW and that they are new, raw and still largely an unknown quantity in Nicktoons (and potentially far more vicious than most of Shredder's minions) adds more weight to that possibility.

I doubt we would get a complete copy of the scene, but its interesting to think that this does open the door for something similar occurring.

On a slightly different note - awesome ideas from Bitsy on the season 3 discussion thread for Casey vs the Underworld!

I think its likely too early for major Dark Raph set up yet, but I love the idea that its Casey who is coerced into giving up Donatello (either to save his family or April)

For the Retromutagen thing I do see Bebop and Rocksteady acting largely on their own for that. They want to get back at the Shredder for what was done to them and they want the Turtles to pay for their interference.

So by knowing about the Retromutagen they know they have a means in which to be human again and that is something they can feel they can keep to themselves.

And also they can feel this would be the means of getting vengeance on the Turtles because once they have Donnie they can force him to make them the retromutagen and once they have the means into restoring themselves they could just simply eliminate Donatello as he would no longer be required. Which would be a burn to the Shredder as he wouldn't be able to cure Karai.


So instantly three birds with one stone humanity restored/revenge against the turtles/and revenge against Shredder all in one package.

While I don't think Rocksteady and Bebop would be smart enough to think that Donnie wouldn't try to double cross them or get out of his situation. I can see them beginning to wonder if April is important to one of the Turtles. Because if there is a reason for Donnie to act on his own without his brothers leave, it would be for April's safety.

Though I think Kirby is more likely to sell out any one of the Turtles for April's sake then Casey would. Casey would worry about April, but he would at least trust the turtles enough to inform them of that situation, but he is also likely to try and get her out on his own without the Turtles help.

[Tarris Vaal]

I had another thought on Casey recently - it occurs to me that since Retromutagen is now so effective it is feasible to mutate other major characters without screwing up the later plot (even as a means to further the plot)

Karai is the obvious example, but what if Casey were to be mutated? Lets take his coming foray against Shredder - if he manages to annoy Shredder enough, what is stopping Shredder from flinging Casey into the mutagen as punishment, deliberately making him a feral mutant to use against the Turtles? What if Casey turns out to be Muck man?

Because the retromutagen exists as a plot device, it isn't impossible for him to be on the receiving end because Ciro and the writers know they can restore him later down the line. If Donnie is taken out of the picture initially, the Turtles wont have a means to make any more retromutagen at first (until a rescue is completed). In the meantime you have the shock value and potentially a lot of room for character advancement, such as;

Casey trying to stay sane
Donnie trying to reach his sane mind
Donnie being forced to create stable retromutagen for Karai (and nominally Casey)
Donnie being at the receiving end of Baxter's frustration and torments, possibly alongside B+R
Donnie potentially getting through to Tigerclaw/Fishface/Rahzar that Shredder is slowly losing his mind.
April distraught at losing her two closest friends (and allowing the writers to remain ambiguous over which she is more concerned about)
Raph and Mikey trying to rescue both of them, whilst Leo contemplates sacrificing them to save Karai
Introduce Mondo Gecko as a 'scout' for the Mutanimals who helps them get into the Foot clans lair (so a minor cameo role for the Mutanimals again)
Raph being captured during a successful rescue and Donatello being seriously injured as they escape.

I could go on

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

I had another thought on Casey recently - it occurs to me that since Retromutagen is now so effective it is feasible to mutate other major characters without screwing up the later plot (even as a means to further the plot)

Karai is the obvious example, but what if Casey were to be mutated? Lets take his coming foray against Shredder - if he manages to annoy Shredder enough, what is stopping Shredder from flinging Casey into the mutagen as punishment, deliberately making him a feral mutant to use against the Turtles? What if Casey turns out to be Muck man?

Because the retromutagen exists as a plot device, it isn't impossible for him to be on the receiving end because Ciro and the writers know they can restore him later down the line. If Donnie is taken out of the picture initially, the Turtles wont have a means to make any more retromutagen at first (until a rescue is completed). In the meantime you have the shock value and potentially a lot of room for character advancement, such as;

Casey trying to stay sane
Donnie trying to reach his sane mind
Donnie being forced to create stable retromutagen for Karai (and nominally Casey)
Donnie being at the receiving end of Baxter's frustration and torments, possibly alongside B+R
Donnie potentially getting through to Tigerclaw/Fishface/Rahzar that Shredder is slowly losing his mind.
April distraught at losing her two closest friends (and allowing the writers to remain ambiguous over which she is more concerned about)
Raph and Mikey trying to rescue both of them, whilst Leo contemplates sacrificing them to save Karai
Introduce Mondo Gecko as a 'scout' for the Mutanimals who helps them get into the Foot clans lair (so a minor cameo role for the Mutanimals again)
Raph being captured during a successful rescue and Donatello being seriously injured as they escape.

I could go on

I don't know about the Muckman, it is possible that Casey could be Tokka. I mean Spike was able to become who he is with Raph's DNA on him, and Casey hangs out with the Turtles so he could become another Turtle mutant.

His mutation doesn't completely make him feral minded. I mean yeah in a way he is feral minded, but he's still in control of himself and who he is. Shredder then forces him to work for the Foot Clan or else.

Everyone one of the Turtles and April are distressed at this, because with the Kraang gone it would be harder to acquire mutagen. So Donnie doesn't know if he would be able to cure him.

Raph and Mikey are both upset Casey is essentially held hostage by the Shredder and when they meet him they would be forced to fight him as an enemy.

April is upset the only human friend she has is a mutant which distresses Donnie because he takes that to mean that she's chosen Casey as her suitor. He doesn't use this time as an opportunity to pursue her now that his rival is no longer there. But he is determined to cure him whatever it takes, for April's sake.

Leo is also upset about Casey but feels that finding and curing Karai is a bigger priority. This of course starts setting Donnie on edge because Leo is essentially saying he doesn't care what happens to anyone else so long as Karai is restored.

Donnie even tries to confront him about this. Leo doesn't listen or he doesn't want to listen and says that Karai is Splinter daughter and the only place she belongs is with them. With her true family. Donnie chooses to just drop the argument right there not wanting to get into it with his brother, right then at least.

When Donnie has successfully finishes Retromutagen, he has a moment where he was going to inform Leo the retromutagen was ready. But then Leo lights into him and starts asking what the ball park time line would be for the Retromutagen to be ready because Karai can't wait much longer. Donnie hesitates and then says is should be completed soon maybe a day or two at most. Leo feels that isn't soon enough, but as he has no other choice he accepts it.
April knows the retromutagen is ready and she understands completely why Donnie lied to his brother.

During evening patrol, the Turtles are jumped by Tiger Claw, Rocksteady, and Bebop and Donnie is taken prisoner. The others return to the lair to inform Splinter of what has happened. Leo is also upset because without Donnie the retromutagen wouldn't be completed.

April then comes out of the lab with the retromutagen in a spray gun and informs him that Donnie lied to him, the retromutagen was completed. This stuns Leo and he asks April about why Donnie would do that. April says it was because Leo was being too obsessed with wanting to cure Karai.

Raph agrees with April and feels Leo was taking the Karai thing too far. Leo isn't ready to admit that he took things too far just yet and demands to know what was so wrong with trying to restore Karai's humanity and returning her to where she belongs. Leo even points out that Splinter had said that it would never be home without Karai.

Splinter however says that as much as he wanted his daughter back, he didn't wish to sacrifice one of his sons for that to happen he then tells Raph and Mikey they would find their brother and bring him home.

[Vicky82]

I have a feeling this will happen due to what happened in the latest episode.

I'll put under spoilers just incase I get moaned at.

Spoiler:

I assume this serum could be eaten by putting it in food or in the water supply or even injected into someone.

Shredder mind control serum is finished but he needs to test it. He doesn't want to use it on his henchman or Karai just incase it goes wrong. So he decides to capture a turtle.

The turtles are lured into a trap and fight the henchman but they get seperated and Raph is captured and taken back to Shredder's lair. He's chained up to a chair and Baxter is ready to inject Raph with the Serum

Meanwhile the other 3 turtles are reunited back at the lair but worry about Raph as they can't contact him. Splinter is also worried as he feels there is something wrong and they all leave to find Raph.

Turtles and Splinter arrive at Shredder's lair and sneak in but are rumbled and Shredder and his henchman appear. Splinter demands they release Raph but Shredder explains that his serum is finished and had to test it on someone and the results are 100% perfect. Karai comes out of the Shadows and is under the mind control serum which makes Splinter angry but then Shredder says that this is the real test subject, which then Raph comes out and everyone is shocked and angry and fight happen.

During the fight Mikey rushes to Raph to try and snap him out of it but Raph Punches him and is about to kill him when Leo jumps in and saves him they are about to fight when the Mutanimals come crashing in and help the turtles escape.

When they get to safety, the turtles and Splinter are devistated that they have lost Raph and Karai and the episode ends with the turtles and Splinter having a emotional hug with the Mutanimals watching over them.

[yellowmario27]

you guys really want Donnie to be captured and/or tortured huh?

[victory_angel]

How about Raph gets separated from the other Turtles captured and used as a test subject. While he's under the affects of the mind control he informs Shredder that Donatello was able to create retromutagen, Rocksteady and Bebop knew of it, the retromutagen does not work on Karai. His brother Mikey accidentally made a super retromutagen but doesn't know how he did it and it was all used up in the fight to restore the city.

Shredder is disappointed to learn that there had been a cure for Karai but it's useless on her. But still Donatello is a threat to their plans.

The other stage a rescue, Donnie finds where Raph is being imprisoned. Raph appears normal leaving Donnie with no idea as to what sort of danger he's in. Donnie informs the others that he has found Raph and the two of them would join them soon only for Raph to attack him from behind.

Shredder and the Foot arrive and the last thing we see is Bebop and Rocksteady holding Donatello down.

Spoiler:

Alluding to Donnie being held down and his shell beaten by a sledge hammer by Bebop and Rocksteady

Maybe Tiger Claw starts to speak up and say there is no honor in doing this (I.E. No Honor in slaying a defenseless opponent.) But Shredder just says the weak are meant to be crushed.

Leo, Mikey, Casey, April, and Splinter arrive at the area where Donnie had contacted from but they don't see Donnie right away. Casey should be the one who comes across Donnie first.

Leo: Donnie! Raph!

Splinter: Raphael! Donatello!

April: Raph!

Mikey: Donnie! DONNIE!!! Say something, Dude!

Casey: Donnie! Yo...Donnie, Raph where are yooooh no! Uh guys....

(Everyone runs up to where Casey is standing and gasps in horror. Freeze frame and fade out)

[Tarris Vaal]

That works really nicely - but I have my doubts they'd take out 2 turtles in as many episodes (I'd expect Donnie to at least make a start on a cure, or for Karai to have been rescued first as a temporary 'replacement')

...Rocksteady and Bebop knew of it...

I had this idea that as neither of them are dumb brutes in this version that they would overhear Shredder discussing the Retromutagen and just quietly neglect to mention what they know - hoping to get an opportunity to get hold of the stuff later and plotting a way to steal it and escape. As they do so, Tigerclaw notices they seem to know something and spies on them, but rather than tell Shredder, his own doubts over Shredder's sanity means that he instead offers to help B+R quietly.

It'll eventually accumulate to a point when the final confrontation with Shredder eventually comes, he'll have the Turtles surrounded and seemingly on the ropes, but when he gives the instruction for his minions to finish them, they instead do nothing and walk away, leaving him to face the Turtles alone and weakened.

....(Everyone runs up to where Casey is standing and gasps in horror. Freeze frame and fade out)

Presumably the writers and producers for the Nicktoons show had plenty of fore knowledge of what was going to happen in IDW (particularly as they're prone to overlapping a bit now and again). Do you think they would have guessed the reaction to IDW 44, and deliberately written in a scene like this where the viewers see nothing and its just strongly implied from reactions that the same or worse has happened - only to find out next episode its nowhere near as bad (serious maybe but not 'that' bad) - perhaps just to leave the fans with a week or two of wild speculation?

you guys really want Donnie to be captured and/or tortured huh?

Its called the turtle torture thread for a reason

But in all honesty, its mostly Donatello who gets the worst end of it because he is also the one who tends to come up with the solution to get them out of whatever mess they're in. Take him out and its always a lot harder for the others to cope. Which is always more interesting
Plus - like it or not - the Apritello thing provides a lot of ammunition for writers to play around with when given the option to do nasty things to one of the turtles.

(and I think its a safe bet most of the regular posters in this thread are Donatello fans - we try to put focus on the others now and then dagnammit, but he's just too awesome )

[Meliwen]

If we do have anyone hurt severely, I'd want it to be Raph's doing under the mind control. Whether or not Raph is responsible for something horrible happening plot wise or if he does something horrible himself (like hurting Donnie, Leo, Mikey or Splinter), I think it'd be nice to have some sort of consequence that he'll have to deal with after he's back to normal, rather than giving everyone a high three, shrugging off being controlled and then gaining nothing character wise from the entire ordeal.

[Ashwolf]

instead of raph being captured and used as test subject, during a fight w/ shredder or 1 of the factions shredder controls, donnie is targeted and raph darts in front of donnie 2 take the hit 4 him

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

That works really nicely - but I have my doubts they'd take out 2 turtles in as many episodes (I'd expect Donnie to at least make a start on a cure, or for Karai to have been rescued first as a temporary 'replacement')

Well Raph being brainwashed would work in capturing or eliminating Donnie because as brothers the Turtles trust one another. So it would make sense for one of the Turtles to over look that they are in danger if they were with a brother if it wasn't yet known the brother had been brainwashed or mind controlled. So Donnie wouldn't expect that Raph has been brainwashed if he acts normally.

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

I had this idea that as neither of them are dumb brutes in this version that they would overhear Shredder discussing the Retromutagen and just quietly neglect to mention what they know - hoping to get an opportunity to get hold of the stuff later and plotting a way to steal it and escape.

That would make sense, but at the same time Rocksteady and Bebop are ultimately out for themselves. Maybe they would bring up that the Turtles can make retromutagen after Stockman fails at creating Retromutagen. However we don't know if Rocksteady or Bebop know that the Retromutagen doesn't work on Karai. Or what effect the retromutagen from before had on Karai, maybe it has done something but we aren't privy as to what at this time.

So if Donnie is captured and forced to make Retromutagen he can tell the Foot Clan it doesn't work which Shredder would take to believe he was lying to buy time. Or he could make it and have it not work only for Shredder to believe he deliberately did something wrong.