New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by NinjaMan

I feel bad for him. Fandoms can be so horrible.

Yeah I saw today he's been getting threats and people are trying to get him kicked off the show. It's disgusting.

I feel like there's this Western philosophy that we always expect the worst.

Even on this forum, there's people, they've seen a 30 second trailer and then straight away all I read is "I hope they don't do this" "I can see it going down this route" "This looks like a fail of an episode".

And then when it isn't and the episode's brilliant, there's a sort of grudging "Oh, it actually turned out pretty good". It's almost as if people are wanting it to be a disaster.

They're blaming Ciro for things when it's their own personal negative assumptions. I haven't heard the whole podcast but even I can tell that it's a case of a comment being taken out of context.

[SpiderFly]

Why do you have to justify a character to be a girl to add a female character? Why does it have an "insert when applicable" in parentheses behind it but male characters do not?

Shows can still be aimed at boys. There's nothing wrong with having a target audience. But that doesn't mean the non-target audience has to suffer a lack of representation or misrepresentation. Falling into stereotypes, tropes, cliches for female characters on a boys show just because females aren't the target audience kills it for boys and how they look at people who aren't just like them. They need female influences/role models just as much as male ones. This is important.

Someone asked what if Rahzar was female?

Maybe we could have had a Crystal Bradford? A tough as nails woman who excelled in martial arts and opened her own chain of dojos. Someone, who just happened to be a woman, that Mikey chose to admire and look up to. Who felt that her mutation destroyed the martial arts legacy that she built up from the dust. And then, whose second mutation gave her the power and ferocity that she had longed for.

It's too late now, but this is an example of how proper representation could have been added, that would not have taken away the fact that this is still a boys aimed show.

[plastroncafe]

The threat, "I want to bathe in his unworthy blood" is a good example of Tumblr Commiseration Spiral Hyperbole. That I can so easily discount it as such doesn't make it any less problematic a comment, nor does it mean that I condone that sort of thing.

Words have power, and that person should apologize.

Just as people who bandy about feminazi and threaten people with disease ridden sexual organs. For some reason though...I'm not expecting the same call for measured discourse to come for those.

[Colonel Schrader]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

The threat, "I want to bathe in his unworthy blood" is a good example of Tumblr Commiseration Spiral Hyperbole. That I can so easily discount it as such doesn't make it any less problematic a comment, nor does it mean that I condone that sort of thing.

Words have power, and that person should apologize.

Just as people who bandy about feminazi and threaten people with disease ridden sexual organs. For some reason though...I'm not expecting the same call for measured discourse to come for those.

dude stfu.. your stupid podcast and then the tumblr post started all this mess in the 1st place! you guys twisted what he said and fed it to the trolls.. what did you think was going to happen? you brought the trolls and haters out, giving them the ammo to shoot at Ciro, stop tryin to act all innocent and like it's not your fault.

if anyone should apologize, it should be you podcast morons who started this whole damn mess in the 1st place!

[plastroncafe]

I don't have to act like it's not my fault, because it isn't. No acting required on my part.

No amount of backtalk from you, or half-assed attempts at reframing the situation are going to change that simple fact. People can say that he was taken out of context, but he wasn't.

I don't like that people are being mean to Ciro online, he's a good guy from what I can tell. He's passionate about his work, and his work is good work. His product is a good product. I don't want him fired anymore than I wanted Biggs fired for being offensive on his personal Twitter account.

That Ciro says he doesn't feel comfortable talking to fans now is on him.

But by all means, continue to tilt at windmills.

[CyberCubed]

Because of this backlash Ciro is probably not going to do any more podcasts or interact with the TMNT fandom anymore.

Congrats, you guys screwed up again. Now Ciro probably will never interact with online TMNT fans again. This is not what Andrew intended with his podcast.

[kelligrafie]

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

[Electric]

What Ciro said is what I mentioned earlier. If this really was a concern, you should've asked him about it further, rather than leaving him with an underdeveloped response to what he really meant allowing people to get this upset.

He was doing this podcast for the fans, and some of them took a response they didn't like and blew it out of proportion.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Wow. This whole idea of there needs to be more female characters to balance out the male characters is honestly ridiculous. You have to remember that the main point of the show centers around the Turtles and Splinter. We don't need females shoehorned in just because there isn't a balance. Like Sweaty said, I'd like to see females as long as they contribute to the plot and are well-written characters who have a purpose to be there. Other than that, I could care less if we have more females on the show. April and Karai are enough for now because their stories are being told this season. Ciro probably said that so as not to give away things that he couldn't say. There may be more females in season three for all we know. Seriously, people are just blowing this out of proportion and really need to get a life.

I'm a female myself, but I enjoy shows aimed at guys. Hell, I used to watch Bravestarr and Dinosaucers with my brother, and those shows were aimed at boys. I didn't sit there and worry about the girls in the show. I just liked the show for what it was. Same goes for TMNT. I relate to Leo sometimes and he's my favorite Turtle, so that's cool for me. April and Karai are fine for now. If more females are added later on down the road, then cool. If not, oh well. Ciro is doing an amazing job, but the people who are bashing him are being totally unreasonable in their assessment of his words. No wonder he left this place.

That was Machias Banshee actually, I was quoting her.

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

You mean actually create something myself instead of bitching and moaning and harassing other artists because what they've created doesn't satisfy my own personal agenda??? But that would require actual work.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think Ciro meant anything by his answer(s) but that there isn't a lot of real estate to work with on any given episode and that he doesn't want to take much away from either April and Karai/Miwa (who are obviously going to become much more in the forefront to come, from what else he said)... rather than introduce a bunch of female characters just for the sake of introducing female characters.

And he is going to introduce new female characters.

[Electric]

Plastron, you're so quick to hold ciro responsible for his underdeveloped response, yet you won't take responsibility for asking and not following up the question you asked that started all of this. It goes both ways, and in every post you only seem to accept it as the way you perceive it.

"That is sad."

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

You mean actually create something myself instead of bitching and moaning and harassing other artists because what they've created doesn't satisfy my own personal agenda??? But that would require actual work.

Got time to moan, got time to rectify the situation.

[SpiderFly]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

I don't think Ciro's goal was to reinforce females as automatic love interests, but for an artist/writer sometimes your intentions are not the result. And I agree about the Karai/Leo relationship. It does represent those good things on its own. I don't have a problem with Karai's character or the fact that females do have relationships. But, there are only two main female characters . . . who are both love interests. Compare that to the vast amount of male characters (who also are perfectly valid in having relationships) that don't get the love interest tag. The writers want the main boys to have love lives but the show is so starved of female characters that we get a representation of girls as automatic love interests. And the absence of female characters who are not love interests only works to cement that "love interest" is the norm for girls. Absence is key. Empty spaces can speak.

Also, just because we don't make shows ourselves doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with the product someone else makes. Your new computer broke? Make one yourself! Your car doesn't start up right? Make one yourself! The food tastes bad at this restaurant and has bugs in it? Don't complain, open your own restaurant! If you make something, prepare for criticism. I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm doing it to be helpful. Because I wanted better and expected better from Ciro. If you don't speak up about something then it continues under the assumption that it is okay or acceptable.

Do I think Ciro should be fired? No, I like what he's done and I look forward to what he will do. There are many things about this show that I'm going to be critical of. But I hold it to such a high standard because I enjoy it so much. And, just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the aspects that it fails at.

Instead of swallowing it and shutting up about how dumbed down Mikey is people actually talked, discussed, and expressed their dissatisfaction. Ciro responded by admitting that mistake and attempting to rectify it. This still leaves me with a little hope for representation in this series. But that hope has taken a serious blow, especially in regards to Irma.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by turtletoons81

true but half of the tmnt fanbase is mostly women than boy's.

I don't think that's remotely true. While probably roughly the majority of the 2,800 active members of the Technodrome forums and 90% of the 30, 40-year old folks writing TMNT fanfiction are women... that's neither their target demographic or even a drip in the ocean of the millions of kids (boys, largely) that are what is actually making the show a success.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

Plastron, you're so quick to hold ciro responsible for his underdeveloped response, yet you won't take responsibility for asking and not following up the question you asked that started all of this. It goes both ways, and in every post you only seem to accept it as the way you perceive it.

"That is sad."

Actually...I did. In my first post in this thread. The one that I promoted even.

I don't think Ciro is a misogynist. I don't think he views all female characters as solely love interests.

I do think that when you only have two and both have been love interests you willfully leave open the argument that you only believe women to be love interests.

I don't think that Ciro believes all women to be "good" or "bad," but when you only have two women and couch them in those terms...you leave open the argument that you do.

I don't believe that Ciro honestly believes that evil women can be healed by the magical powers of the leading man, but...if/when Karai is turned to the side of the light by Leonardo...he'll be leaving himself open to that criticism as well.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by SpiderFly

I don't think Ciro's goal was to reinforce females as automatic love interests, but for an artist/writer sometimes your intentions are not the result. And I agree about the Karai/Leo relationship. It does represent those good things on its own. I don't have a problem with Karai's character or the fact that females do have relationships. But, there are only two main female characters . . . who are both love interests. Compare that to the vast amount of male characters (who also are perfectly valid in having relationships) that don't get the love interest tag. The writers want the main boys to have love lives but the show is so starved of female characters that we get a representation of girls as automatic love interests. And the absence of female characters who are not love interests only works to cement that "love interest" is the norm for girls. Absence is key. Empty spaces can speak.

Also, just because we don't make shows ourselves doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with the product someone else makes. Your new computer broke? Make one yourself! Your car doesn't start up right? Make one yourself! The food tastes bad at this restaurant and has bugs in it? Don't complain, open your own restaurant! If you make something, prepare for criticism. I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm doing it to be helpful. Because I wanted better and expected better from Ciro. If you don't speak up about something then it continues under the assumption that it is okay or acceptable.

Do I think Ciro should be fired? No, I like what he's done and I look forward to what he will do. There are many things about this show that I'm going to be critical of. But I hold it to such a high standard because I enjoy it so much. And, just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the aspects that it fails at.

Instead of swallowing it and shutting up about how dumbed down Mikey is people actually talked, discussed, and expressed their dissatisfaction. Ciro responded by admitting that mistake and attempting to rectify it. This still leaves me with a little hope for representation in this series. But that hope has taken a serious blow, especially in regards to Irma.

That's not really the best analogy. There's nothing "broken" about the show. You represent a small minority of fans who are unhappy with a certain feature. If you go to the manufacturer and say, "hey, I don't like this feature," and they come back with, "Oh, well... we like it. And so do most of our customers," then what purpose does it serve to keep complaining at them about it? At what point do you decide to build the better mousetrap yourself?

Having an opinion is fine. You don't have to agree with everything they do, I mean that's the whole purpose of an open forum after all, is to discuss things. But there's some strong accusations being thrown around here. There's a hard line between "oh I'd like to see more ladies on the show, that would be cool" to "CIRO IS TEH SEXIST!!! BURN HIM!!!"

[Colonel Schrader]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/c...interview-2013

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Colonel Schrader

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/c...interview-2013

lol... really?

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Colonel Schrader

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/c...interview-2013

You know you could have made a new thread about it rather than posting it here.

The more interviews with Ciro Niel the better...but to post it in this one is kinda pointless.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by Colonel Schrader

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/c...interview-2013

Dude the interview was great. Sorry to see everyone get hung up a single question, but I thought the rest of it was fantastic.